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First I resisted Mesh. It looked scary. I got help. It wasn't scary at all. It was a giant leap.

Then I resisted BoM. How could this be better than appliers? It looked scary. I got help. It wasn't scary at all. It was a giant leap.

Now I can save make up and lingerie to each outfit. I can layer up so chosing an outfit is so much more fun.

I really don't care about the technicalities. It's more fun. Simple as that. And you can use old system skins. And other stuff.

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15 minutes ago, Odaks said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that scripts get one of the last bites of the cherry when it comes to server usage. (I'm presuming that this hasn't changed because of the tweaks LL are having to do to uplift to AWS, of course.)

All of the serous stuff gets priority over scripts, which is why response to script commands gets delayed so badly when server loadings are high. Script execution just gets delayed and delayed until there is some server time available to run them. Generally speaking, the script is the victim, not the rogue?

This is still entirely correct. Scripts are the last in line to do anything. But since scripts are required for most interactions available to us, scripts lagging other scripts is not ideal.

13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Also, I had heard, in the rumor days pre-BOM and how BOM would be, that body parts would not come through the clothes anymore.

BOM isn't some silver-bullet to all issues relating to your body and clothes. It combines textures together, that's it. It doesn't fix clipping clothes, you'll need to use alphas for that, just like you needed alpha cuts pre-BOM.

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26 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

BOM isn't some silver-bullet to all issues relating to your body and clothes. It combines textures together, that's it. It doesn't fix clipping clothes, you'll need to use alphas for that, just like you needed alpha cuts pre-BOM.

I see, it was a rumor.  There were many pre-BOM days but the one about parts clipping through was my biggest hope to have it end.  But, it was just a rumor on the forum.

But, with pencil skirts or dresses, alpha cuts are used of course, but with certain animations and poses, parts still poke through.   So, I'm speaking about parts poking through even with alpha cuts except for this one pencil dress I bought recently - absolutely it is amazing me.  

EDIT:  Oh, I know what the person on the forum must have been talking about regarding no clipping (this is with alphas on) of parts with BOM, they must have meant IF we use the old system style clothing only.    

Edited by FairreLilette
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I found using appliers confusing, so I'm really happy with BOM and no longer needing to use appliers.  I also prefer using alpha layers to having to use a HUD to select alpha cuts.   I like that I can see everything that I'm wearing, and that I can save it in an outfit without having that affect other saved outfits.   The issues around materials apparently is something that has not affected me, as far as I am aware.

I have Slink Physique, Tonic Fine and Lara bodies, but almost always wore Slink or sometimes Tonic.  When BOM was first released and Slink came out with the Redux body right away, I switched to BOM completely, packing away my Lara and Tonic bodies,  deleting appliers out of my inventory and making sure I was using a viewer that supported BOM when first released.  The skin that I use came out with BOM versions very quickly, also, so that helped as well.   I do have the most recent versions of Lara and Tonic Fine, now, as well, and I sometimes wear the BOM Tonic Fine Lite version.  

I also learned to make alpha layers - something that I had not thought I'd be able to do - but Slink had some good tutorial videos about how to do it.  I haven't had to make very many, as Slink had two sets of alpha layers available, I picked up a set from Little Black Dress, and I still had a fair number of alpha layers in my clothing folders.

So creators not including applier layers any longer doesn't affect me, and I hadn't really noticed that.  What I have noticed more is creators beginning to include alpha layers and include both appliers and system layers when applicable.

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46 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

But, with pencil skirts or dresses, alpha cuts are used of course, but with certain animations and poses, parts still poke through.

   This will probably never not be a thing in SL though, but it's more to do with the design of the apparel vs. the animation played than it has anything to do with whether you're using alpha cuts or alpha layers.

   Skirts tend to be where you'll notice this the most, and certainly tighter fitting ones will be more apparent. But you may well find tops that will clip right through your breast when your animation moves certain ways if it has been sloppily rigged, which is why you should always demo the mesh - watching how it moves when your avatar's AO runs, both whilst standing still and moving around. After all, even if you alpha out your entire legs, a ball gown may move really weirdly if your animation is unsuitable for it (or it is unsuitable for your animation - whichever way you want to look at it). The animations of your avatar are still there, whether your avatar is or isn't.

   I don't rig clothes myself, but I do make poses, and sometimes when testing the poses I find some apparel isn't good for anything much aside from T-posing. And I don't know a whole lot of people who want to walk around T-posing just to flash off their cute top.

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4 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I see, it was a rumor.  There were many pre-BOM days but the one about parts clipping through was my biggest hope to have it end.  But, it was just a rumor on the forum.

You may be thinking about alpha sorting issues that caused tattoos and makeup (and sometimes skin) to appear to clip over clothing. BOM does indeed solve that. That's probably what people were talking about.

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8 hours ago, Orwar said:

   This will probably never not be a thing in SL though, but it's more to do with the design of the apparel vs. the animation played than it has anything to do with whether you're using alpha cuts or alpha layers.

   Skirts tend to be where you'll notice this the most, and certainly tighter fitting ones will be more apparent. But you may well find tops that will clip right through your breast when your animation moves certain ways if it has been sloppily rigged, which is why you should always demo the mesh - watching how it moves when your avatar's AO runs, both whilst standing still and moving around. After all, even if you alpha out your entire legs, a ball gown may move really weirdly if your animation is unsuitable for it (or it is unsuitable for your animation - whichever way you want to look at it). The animations of your avatar are still there, whether your avatar is or isn't.

   I don't rig clothes myself, but I do make poses, and sometimes when testing the poses I find some apparel isn't good for anything much aside from T-posing. And I don't know a whole lot of people who want to walk around T-posing just to flash off their cute top.

If only we had dynamic bones and colliders at the least or cloth physics at the most, but then the dinosaurs on their toasters would not be too happy, but then again, they could just turn those aspects off in their gfx settings and watch everyone walk around with stiff hair and clothing, heh.

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13 hours ago, KjartanEno said:

Applier bodies: Each mesh object can only have 8 faces, so there are only 8 alpha sections possible per mesh section. One can make an educated guess as to how many individual objects each mesh body has by the number of alpha cuts shown in the HUD for that body. That means additional scripting overhead too, since the body may also provide broader alpha settings in addition to individual sections, and there may be an automatic alpha system to help with alpha control. Who wants to set alphas every time one makes an outfit? I used to put bodies in folders based on outfits. That was a lot of extra body copies in my inventory. Body makers can only divide up a mesh in just so many ways in anticipation of possible clothing options. How many extra vertices are needed to account for all those cuts? Multiply that by three, since one needs a tattoo and 'clothing' layer as well.

BOM bodies: The system alpha mask reduces the need for alpha cuts. This results in fewer body sections, more optimized vertex placement, and simpler scripts. HUDs can be made simpler, thus taking up less texture memory, important if you don't have a high end graphics card. I am no fan of fancy HUDs cluttering up my view of the world, and with a BOM body there should be less need to even use the body's HUD in outfits. Going back to the system alpha mask, anyone can make them. I use GIMP and the free 1024 x 1024 SL UV textures from Robin Wood to 'connect the dots' while wearing a skin I made based on those same textures. Once I have my alpha mask textures, I upload them and create a system alpha mask, something anyone can create by right-clicking in the "Clothing" folder and creating a new alpha mask. Be kind and share your alpha masks with friends! Alpha masks make outfit creation a breeze. Need to take off shoes? Detach them and the alpha mask that goes with them. No need to open a HUD or save a body copy just to cover going barefoot. A few mesh body copies can cover a lot of outfits, resulting in less inventory clutter.

As an aside, adding and removing clothing items using RLV folders is now as easy as it was with the system avatar.

Edit: Oh and I just remembered one thing I did recently. I got an awesome system skin from Aeros. However, there were some details about it that didn't quite suit me and my mesh body, so I used some of my own textures to create a whole-body tattoo layer. Thus, I effectively 'modded' a system skin with a semi transparent 'skin' tattoo to give me exactly the look I want.

I'm sorry but as well intentioned as your post is, it is just seeing things from your perspective.  Not everyone has the skill, the time or the inclination to keep making new alpha layers.  Even if you have a boat load of alpha layers and have been given them, being able to categorise them and find the right one out of hundreds or more takes way more time than to click the right combination of alpha cuts on a HUD.  There really is no good way of organising them such that it makes locating the right one almost instant.   People who claim you only need a dozen or so alpha layers which will make finding them quick just don't wear enough different types of clothing to realise how much that claim is rubbish.

Making a new alpha layer in a graphics application, checking it is correct, adjusting it if necessary, rinsing and repeating before uploading the texture will always take way more time than clicking a selection of alpha cuts.  Making alpha layers would have to be as quick, easy and simple as the alternative to make a lot of people change in my opinion.

Sure, you lose the flexibility of being able to alpha out outside the cuts but from my experience the only people who care are those are the ones who want to make their own alpha layers anyway.  I would warrant that most people demo the item, if the cuts don't make it fit, they don't buy it.  Simple.  People like simple.

I have tried many times to explain to people how to do some simple things like make a new alpha mask to hide a whole body area and truly some just cannot or will not get their head around it.  I don't know why but it is a thing even though they have somehow navigated through everything else they got the hang of.  Just look at how many people come on to store groups just to ask for a LM to the store when there are a handful of different ways they can easily get it themselves and I am not talking about hard to find places either, shops for example that they have been customers of for years.  The amount and level of helplessness out there is shocking at times so there is an impossible hill to climb to persuade such people to learn a graphics application to knock out a few alphas each time they buy an outfit.

I care, like most people, about efficiency to a certain degree and after that I'll take the hit on performance for ease of use or to get the effect that I want to achieve.  Everyone draws the line somewhere but make no mistake, each of us has a line drawn somewhere.  Examples:  people who have drawn the line at wearing a mesh body and head in the first place because the system avatar is more efficient.  They are correct in technical terms but that line is at a different place from mesh body/head wearers obviously and further up the chain, those who balk at the inefficiencies of bodies such as Legacy, etc and draw the line at that.

In my opinion, smart body makers know this and that is why they retain their alpha cut options.  Smart clothing makers know this and as far as I can see the big names in female clothing at least are still mostly providing clothing to fit alpha cuts for those bodies have them and those that once had them (some people wear older versions of the bodies because they don't like the upgrades for a variety of reasons).  Very seldom have I seen an alpha layer included in with the items of the top female brands even now.

I expect there will always be bodies with alpha cuts around regardless of the complaints about them.  I know I will be one of those wearing one and using alpha cuts for the foreseeable future.
 

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6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I have tried many times to explain to people how to do some simple things like make a new alpha mask to hide a whole body area and truly some just cannot or will not get their head around it.

It's pretty common. More often than not, I just go ahead and give someone a head, body, or eye alpha, which only took me a few clicks to make in my inventory. One can only do just so much to help. I have explained how to make alpha masks, but I don't expect most people to do so.

6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

The amount and level of helplessness out there is shocking at times so there is an impossible hill to climb to persuade such people to learn a graphics application to knock out a few alphas each time they buy an outfit.

I've seen that helplessness myself. I have created around 100 alpha masks for male clothing items, making more as time allows, that I set full perms and give away. I put the name of the clothing maker and item on the alpha mask. Again, one can only do so much, but at least I can say I did something.

6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

In my opinion, smart body makers know this and that is why they retain their alpha cut options.

I have no problem with some alpha cuts. I like having at least one 'onion' layer for appliers that use materials, so alpha cuts have to be there even when using BoM in order to hide 'tattoos' that might poke through. I don't do it often in outfits, but the option is there if I need it.

6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I expect there will always be bodies with alpha cuts around regardless of the complaints about them.  I know I will be one of those wearing one and using alpha cuts for the foreseeable future.

BoM exists, but that doesn't mean all the old bodies and appliers stopped working. With a few exceptions, most body makers still offer scripted alpha cuts and applier support in addition to BoM. Those mesh makers that put ridiculous polygon counts into their pre-BoM creations probably won't improve much anyway. ... A few more years pass, and all the people who bought the 'coolest' body and the 'popular' head wonder why nobody hangs out anymore (because it became a slide show with their 100 million triangle bodies, heads, hair, clothes, and accessories, all texture thrashing even with an 8 GB VRAM GPU...).  😵

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58 minutes ago, KjartanEno said:

A few more years pass, and all the people who bought the 'coolest' body and the 'popular' head wonder why nobody hangs out anymore (because it became a slide show with their 100 million triangle bodies, heads, hair, clothes, and accessories, all texture thrashing even with an 8 GB VRAM GPU...)

Now I'm not saying you don't make any sense, but don't exaggerate. We did survive through non-bento head times, when certain creator who was most popular and releasing like 3 heads a month at that time had most heads with 1.5m triangles and ones that didn't count as "basic" had up to 3.5m (because more frame-by-frame animations included, each one pretty much was a separate head). Back then almost any crowded spot had most people using those heads on top of the very same (and layered) bodies.

---

As for the BoM. It's okay. My main grip with it was that there were a possibility mesh body creators will get rid of alpha cuts, which I much prefer over alphas, but only Slink did, so can't say I care. Not having alpha glitches for tattoos is a plus too, for those who use them. My 2nd grip with it was the inventory management for makeup. With an applier you put a hud on and can see what you're putting, with tattoo layers... not so much, gotta rely on names or make picture or what is what (which might not sound too bad, until you realize that you gotta do it a thousand times). But these days I use HD layers for my head's makeup anyway, with some little BoM fixes (if needed), so it's also okay.

Edited by steeljane42
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5 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

With an applier you put a hud on and can see what you're putting, with tattoo layers... not so much, gotta rely on names or make picture or what is what (which might not sound too bad, until you realize that you gotta do it a thousand times). 

I don't understand.

You use outfits, right?

On a different topic: Does anybody know when/if Belleza will update Jake to be a proper BOM avatar, instead of the monstrosity it is now? I mean, it looks fine, but it's crazy to have all those obsolete layers on the mesh and the HUD.

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36 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't understand.

You use outfits, right?

I do. But in case of BoM makeup.. do you really suggest that I change the whole outfit if I just want to change a lipstick/eyeshadow style/color? That's not very viable solution to say the least. Take all those outfits and multiply them by makeup combination and it'll be a very silly number of outfits that will be a nightmare to navigate.

36 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

On a different topic: Does anybody know when/if Belleza will update Jake to be a proper BOM avatar, instead of the monstrosity it is now?

Creator had 2 picks in profile. One that is ETA for BoM update for the bodies is 2020 and 2nd about head(s?) release in summer 2020. He since changed the pick about heads to "2020". But yep, that's Belleza for you. Took them 1.5 years to implenent bento hands.

Edited by steeljane42
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34 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

On a different topic: Does anybody know when/if Belleza will update Jake to be a proper BOM avatar, instead of the monstrosity it is now?

   Wondering the same about the Signature bodies ...

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15 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

I do. But in case of BoM makeup.. do you really suggest that I change the whole outfit if I just want to change a lipstick/eyeshadow style/color? That's not very viable solution to say the least. Takes all those outfits and multiply them by makeup combination and it'll be a very silly number of outfits that will be a nightmare to navigate.

Well no, but that's not why I mentioned outfits; there's no requirement to save a new outfit whether the change of makeup is by BOM or by applier. The difference is, in this case of changing makeup, I'd find it hopeless to guess which applier in my Inventory applied the makeup I now want to change; in contrast. with BoM, I know just by looking at what's worn in the Current Outfit pseudo-folder.

But I'm not trying to be argumentative; rather I think I just don't understand what you meant by "[w]ith an applier you put a hud on and can see what you're putting...."

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7 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Wondering the same about the Signature bodies ...

Oh, heh, you have a point. When I updated Gianni (mine's at 5.0 now), I kinda ignored the fact that the existence of a BoM button means it's still lugging around all those dumb underwear, clothing, and tattoo mesh layers, rather than have a separate BoM-only model.

I'm just now realizing how little that "BoM" button actually does.

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4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'm just now realizing how little that "BoM" button actually does.

   I mean, I'm really glad they did make it BoM compatible, but .. Still, I'd love for them to just make the whole body a single attachment with just the BoM body and no onion layers. If they want a 'hands only' attachment for when you're wearing a suit, fine, I'd be happy to have that -in addition- to the entire body, but having to wear 2-3 attachments (I rarely wear the feet, 'cause, shoes) feels a bit pointless.

   They should just do what Maitreya did - I really like the 5.x+ updates, it's really easy to use, and when I want to wear an applier (either because there hasn't been a BoM update to something, or because it's something that requires materials), I can just add that one layer.

   The one thing I think Maitreya could have done, would be to entirely get rid of their alpha cuts; maybe make a pack of alpha layers that corresponds to what they were (maybe even just a HUD that shows you the old map, that you can click to unpack the corresponding alpha) - but that's probably just me dreaming.

   Comparing the bodies that went BoM 'compatible' and the ones that went 'We're BoM now!', I see no real reason to not just move forwards, when you can still support appliers to make sure that old things people have purchased can still be used until they have been replaced (or, as in that one instance I think BoM falls behind - when you need a texture with materials). 

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24 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But I'm not trying to be argumentative; rather I think I just don't understand what you meant by "[w]ith an applier you put a hud on and can see what you're putting...."

Picture previews of what I'm actually about to apply, including style and color. Nothing more than that. It's easy enough with BoM, too, if it's something very basic or very different (i.e. red lipstick, purple lipstick, black lipstick and so on). But in cases where its 15-30 shades of one color it's so much easier to see what I'm about to apply through the hud, than guess the color/shade based on creator's ability to name layers properly.

Here's related post (and some more follow up to it) from the pet peeves thread. You'd think creators would drop the texture with "what is what", since it's usually already used on the ad so people know what are they buying, but nope, it's almost never the case. Reminds me of older times when certain popular clothing makers didn't use same order in demo huds and vendors, nor did they had text below demo hud colors. So pretty much had to compare visually and hope that "the color I liked for those jeans is light blue and not sea blue that looks so close".

Edit:

Guessing appliers is also not so great, so I'll agree with you there. But it's still faster to put on/remove the hud to check what style is that. And knowing which layer I wear now doesn't always help, for example if I don't want to just change the color of the current makeup, but change it completely to a different style. Just usual "weird SL thing", I suppose. Along with inventory management in general.

Edited by steeljane42
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21 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

That avatar complexities are way higher than need be. And it's in part the reason why people keep yelling "lag".

See now this confuses me a bit. 

Looking around me at a very busy skin shop and most including myself are in the lower 40k zone. Very very few have been much over 70k.  Very happy I don't see any 300k+ like in the olden days.  In worn items I'm comfy wearing a mesh Physique yes-bom all-in-one body-hands-feet + SL head, new mesh Slink clothes, shoes, and animated hair which jacked me up to low 40s. Take my hair off and I'm upper 30s complexity.

So today is it seen by those in-the-know about complexity that an avi showing in the 30-40k zone still is "way higher" than could/should be produced and worn?  

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7 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

See now this confuses me a bit. 

Looking around me at a very busy skin shop and most including myself are in the lower 40k zone. Very very few have been much over 70k.  Very happy I don't see any 300k+ like in the olden days.  In worn items I'm comfy wearing a mesh Physique yes-bom all-in-one body-hands-feet + SL head, new mesh Slink clothes, shoes, and animated hair which jacked me up to low 40s. Take my hair off and I'm upper 30s complexity.

So today is it seen by those in-the-know about complexity that an avi showing in the 30-40k zone still is "way higher" than could/should be produced and worn?  

It's too bad that having low complexity doesn't actually mean anything. 50K complexity can easily be much worse than 180K. That's how easy (and common) the complexity exploits are.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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1 minute ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

It's too bad that having low complexity doesn't actually mean anything.

50K complexity can easily be much worse than 180K.

This is soooo not my expertise. Long ago I read up on this, but it seems like lifetimes.  I took the position SL gave users the option to view this number with some intention it would help users or the system have a better experience.  I mean, time was put into adding viewing this number in etc.

So today, given what is now known, how can a mindful user, seeing this number over their own head, use this number to edit their avi-situation in order to improve their/neighbors experience?  This suggests that the number infers absolutely nothing, which if so, I won't blow one more cycle considering it ever again :)  . 

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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Well no, but that's not why I mentioned outfits; there's no requirement to save a new outfit whether the change of makeup is by BOM or by applier. The difference is, in this case of changing makeup, I'd find it hopeless to guess which applier in my Inventory applied the makeup I now want to change; in contrast. with BoM, I know just by looking at what's worn in the Current Outfit pseudo-folder.

But I'm not trying to be argumentative; rather I think I just don't understand what you meant by "[w]ith an applier you put a hud on and can see what you're putting...."

I work SL by keeping saved outfits. It can be laborious, but is also a lot of fun. Appliers affected each one so I used limited make up and lingerie across all my outfits, which currently number 200.

With BoM, I've set up each outfit with bespoke make up and lingerie, and all this is recorded on a Word file, including indexes for eye shadow, and lipstick. I don't tend to vary make up on a single outfit, so now this is all set up, its job done and I can just tweak around the edges.

Some people don't work that way and assemble an outfit on the day. If you don't keep adequate records of what you have, or if your inventory is a mess, it will never be easy with appliers or BoM.

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1 hour ago, Kyrie Deka said:

This is soooo not my expertise. Long ago I read up on this, but it seems like lifetimes.  I took the position SL gave users the option to view this number with some intention it would help users or the system have a better experience.  I mean, time was put into adding viewing this number in etc.

So today, given what is now known, how can a mindful user, seeing this number over their own head, use this number to edit their avi-situation in order to improve their/neighbors experience?  This suggests that the number infers absolutely nothing, which if so, I won't blow one more cycle considering it ever again :)  . 

Yes, the intention of Complexity was to put a score on people so it would be easy for you to determine (and optionally not display) avatars that are causing framerate issues in your viewer.

But because of how that score is calculated, it's easy to create bodies and clothing so that it has much lower complexity than intended. Everybody does it. What's worse is that even if you're just ignorant or lazy and aren't trying to do it, you'll probably do it by coincidence. I have a huge spreadsheet of different brands and products (I can link it later) that showcases how jarringly inaccurate Complexity is in relation to other metrics.

It's an entirely useless number until someone changes it. Black Dragon actually has its own complexity formula and it's much more useful.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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I've seen it suggested that the complexity numbers were a big success and numbers went down because it encouraged us to stop wearing super complex flexi outfits and old hair and jewelry. Nahhh. New better LOOKING stuff took over that  happened to show the right numbers above our heads. And off we went in the world satisfied we had done something good, most of us not having the technical inclination beyond low = GOOD.

If new and better looking tech develops that happens to actually address complexity, it'll take over too. BOM is a perfect example. People adopt it because it's fun! Because it's flexible and enhances our creativity. Because it addresses issues that prevented us from achieving the LOOKS we wanted.

What's the ballpark percentage of the marketplace who care about being a good citizen? 🙃 Of course in reality most implementations of BOM have done little to alleviate the current situation. I'm not speaking against being a good citizen mind you! I'm just suggesting that if we want to trick people into doing something for the good of the grid, make it sexy.

 

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