Why BOM? Why?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Just now, FairreLilette said:

What is the new universal type?  I've not heard of that before.

I'm posting from my phone so I can't easily find a link to the image I've posted before (recently), but you can create one from your inventory by creating a New Clothing > Universal. Basically, it has a slot for every avatar texture, plus 3 "aux" slots that don't normally show on an avatar unless a script enables them on an attachment.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

7 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

What is the new universal type?  I've not heard of that before.

SL neck. .... I think they all updated (mesh bodies except bellehoweveryouspell it

[Gabriele Graves]

There is no visible join with Origins heads if you had a Maitreya body and a good matching skin.  Here is a picture of my Origins head (Simone):

Or let me put it another way, if the neck here is a problem for you I doubt you will ever be happy because on my Lake v2.5 the neck is not any better than this.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

13 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There is no visible join with Origins heads if you had a Maitreya body and a good matching skin.  Here is a picture of my Origins head (Simone):

Or let me put it another way, if the neck here is a problem for you I doubt you will ever be happy because on my Lake v2.5 the neck is not any better than this.

I actually see a seam...  I mean it is not horrible but it is there.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Tarina Sewell

[FairreLilette]

54 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I actually see a seam...  I mean it is not horrible but it is there.

Yes, I see it too BUT what I have been attempting to say is that in certain lighting it does go away completely...mostly in CalWL lighting but this was a notecard I got for BOM skins and the seams and the lighting.  I haven't taken pictures but I did see my seams can be completely eliminated by adjusting the lighting and with moving the camera around the avatar I saw no seam and it had a good natural shadow on the neck.

I'm not getting the Lelutka creator coming out with a notice to help other head makers update to that new technology spoken of above while at the same time neglecting the Lelutka origins heads....?  I don't like the new heads of the Evo line except for Ryn which I may get at another time.  We all have our preferences.  I like "cuter" as someone above mentioned about Chloe being cuter but I bought Aida for the same reason "cuter".  Why neglect these adorable Origins heads?  I visited and peeked into the inworld Lelutka chat for a bit yesterday and there was no one in chat to help anybody with help they were asking, although I'm not sure what this "Lelutka" group is for as a lot of make-ups to buy notices go through.  But, I think it was the only Lelutka group I could find.  I need to check this out as to where is help for the Lelutka heads because I want my Aida to be BOM but cannot figure out how to change the eyes with DEMO eyes.  I took Aida shopping yesterday to an event on HIGH graphics and ADVANCED LIGHTING and had no lag with a  BOM skin I made.  I cannot go back to the lag monsters of the applier avatars where my graphics would have to be on MID and no ADVANCED LIGHTING.   

Edited December 4, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

8 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, I see it too BUT what I have been attempting to say is that in certain lighting it does go away completely...mostly in CalWL lighting but this was a notecard I got for BOM skins and the seams and the lighting.  I haven't taken pictures but I did see my seams can be completely eliminated by adjusting the lighting and with moving the camera around the avatar I saw no seam and it had a good natural shadow on the neck.

What I'm still scratching my head about is, how is this relevant to this thread? Creators have been including notecards about "light settings" for literally years. Why are we talking about it?

Edited December 4, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

4 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

What I'm still scratching my head about is, how is this relevant to this thread? Creators have been including notecards about "light settings" for literally years.

Well, it's news to me because with Deetalez I never had any seam problem.  I already explained it was a coincidence because as soon as I am skin shopping for the new heads I bought and reading this notecard with the BOM skins and lighting, Horus posted himself as newly BOM and I noticed a seam.

But, if it's always been there, there is a good chance to tweak the lighting and not just adjust body fat as most people have been saying in neck seam threads.  

Edited December 4, 2020 by FairreLilette

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

9 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, I see it too BUT what I have been attempting to say is that in certain lighting it does go away completely...mostly in CalWL lighting but this was a notecard I got for BOM skins and the seams and the lighting.  I haven't taken pictures but I did see my seams can be completely eliminated by adjusting the lighting and with moving the camera around the avatar I saw no seam and it had a good natural shadow on the neck.

I'm not getting the Lelutka creator coming out with a notice to help other head makers update to that new technology spoken of above while at the same time neglecting the Lelutka origins heads....?  I don't like the new heads of the Evo line except for Ryn which I may get at another time.  We all have our preferences.  I like "cuter" as someone above mentioned about Chloe being cuter but I bought Aida for the same reason "cuter".  Why neglect these adorable Origins heads?  I visited and peeked into the inworld Lelutka chat for a bit yesterday and there was no one in chat to help anybody with help they were asking, although I'm not sure what this "Lelutka" group is for as a lot of make-ups to buy notices go through.  But, I think it was the only Lelutka group I could find.  I need to check this out as to where is help for the Lelutka heads because I want my Aida to be BOM but cannot figure out how to change the eyes with DEMO eyes.  I took Aida shopping yesterday to an event on HIGH graphics and ADVANCED LIGHTING and had no lag with a  BOM skin I made.  I cannot go back to the lag monsters of the applier avatars where my graphics would have to be on MID and no ADVANCED LIGHTING.   

 

You can make your own eye alpha that would allow the eyes to look right.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

14 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, it's news to me because with Detalez I never had any seam problem.  I already explained it was a coincidence because as soon as I am skin shopping for the new heads I bought and reading this notecard with the BOM skins, Horus posted himself as newly BOM and I noticed a seam.

But, if it's always been there, there is a good chance to tweak the lighting and not just adjust body fat as most people have been saying in neck seam threads.  

Oh, okay. I assumed you had prior knowledge of seams existing.

The thing about LL creating "better" light presets is that there isn't a universal solution that looks natural (especially with a day cycle) and avoids those seams. Gabriele's image for example has basically no shadows at all (or rather, everything is in shadow -- no contrast). It's overcast weather, which is fine, but should we replace our default midday/night/evening with overcast versions? I think a world without shadow looks very artificial. You could try to change the angle of the sun, but that would stop working as soon as the avatar moves a certain way.

P.S. The body fat thing doesn't fix "seams" unless there's an actual gap in the neck between the head and body, and even then you have to be lucky, and you'll probably still be left with visible texture seams.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

But, if it's always been there, there is a good chance to tweak the lighting and not just adjust body fat as most people have been saying in neck seam threads.  

Adjusting body fat only really applies when using a system head with a mesh body. In that case you need to be sure body fat is correctly set and in most cases one would also use the neck fix that is part of the mesh body to correct neck seam issues. Again, this would apply regardless of using BoM or applier skins. This neck issue is not a BoM issue!

If a person is using a mesh head with a mesh body then yes the neck size needs to be set to the same for both the body and the head or you'll see a gap at the seam, which isn't a skin issue at all. If you have a gap at the seam because of a size difference no light setting is going to fix that. Fortunately, most of the recent mesh heads and bodies have already been set to the proper size to make the neck join match.

Again, IMO any skinner that recommends setting windlight to CaWl in order for the skin to look right might need to fix that skin rather than just recommending their customers hide it with a bright windlight.

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Again, IMO any skinner that recommends setting windlight to CaWl in order for the skin to look right might need to fix that skin rather than just recommending their customers hide it with a bright windlight.

Probably.  I just looked up my Deetalez skins which I have been using pre-BOM, there is no notecard for lighting adjustment that comes with the product.  So, yes...probably.  

[Qie Niangao]

Re: seams. I never had a problem with Slink, but since BoM I've resurrected some old alts using Belleza Jake, and it's pretty awful... but then the model has visible discontinuities with itself along the shoulders, so I guess we know why it's the least expensive of the big brands. (And here I thought it was just the b0rked Bento that has the hands splay starfish-like when you least expect it.)

But that's not actually what I wanted to post about.

Is anybody else confused by skin merchants who bundle their BoM body skins as tattoos only, not using the skin layer at all? I'm thinking Stray Dog here, but there may be others. I have some hare-brained theories, but I just wonder if anybody finds it a convenience for some reason.

Oh also, hairbases and the BoM "materials" problem: Usually I just cover up a hairbase with a bunch of meshy hair without paying attention, but one of my alts wants a hairbase-only buzzcut and it looks very weird with even the slightest sheen on the head skin. Now, with BOM, there's just the one baked surface for face and hair and it seems the standard issue specularmap is uniform across that surface (at least for LeLutka). So I made a custom specularmap that keeps matte the area of my favored hairbase; while I was at it, I did the eyebrows (in case I use the skin's eyebrows instead of the "HD" brow layer with its own specularity). Easy to apply with the LeLutka "testing" HUD, and it worked out fine, but I wonder: what do other people do? I can't be the only one who wants a matte hairbase and a little sheen to the face, can I? Do some heads come with "HD" hairbase layer, too? Or am I just doing this all wrong?

[ETA: I didn't create a custom hairbase/eyebrow normalmap, too, but ideally I'd think a hairbase should use all materials tricks it can.]

Edited December 4, 2020 by Qie Niangao

[Wulfie Reanimator]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Is anybody else confused by skin merchants who bundle their BoM body skins as tattoos only, not using the skin layer at all? I'm thinking Stray Dog here, but there may be others. I have some hare-brained theories, but I just wonder if anybody finds it a convenience for some reason.

Yup. Doesn't make sense. Using tattoo layers for the actual skin is not convenient since it allows the skin to go over all of your current skins (remember, your old skin-tattoo isn't replaced) and tattoos. You'll just have to reorder everything by hand and remember to take off your old skin if you don't want to pollute your outfits.

If I put my tinfoil wizard hat on, the one myth I can conjure is that "skins are only 512 resolution, tattoos were always 1024" which was true but the Skin wearable was updated to support 1024 on the same day when BOM came out.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Gabriele Graves]

6 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I actually see a seam...  I mean it is not horrible but it is there.

I have zoomed by 1600% on the original 4K picture on my 4K monitor and showed it to a handful of different people from friends and family and none of them can see any seam on the neck.  I cannot account for what you perceive but as I said, if that picture of the neck is a problem for anyone then they are going to be permanently disappointed with any Lelutka combination available in SL currently.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Gabriele Graves
added missing word.

[Blush Bravin]

33 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I have zoomed by 1600% on the original 4K picture on my 4K monitor and showed it to a handful of different people from friends and family and none of them can see any seam on the neck.  I cannot account for what you perceive but as I said, if that picture of the neck is a problem for anyone then they are going to be permanently disappointed with any Lelutka combination available in SL currently.

I don't see a seam either, but I do see something.

I'm wondering if what they are identifying is that little jagged edge that seems to be poking out ever so slightly. There's no telling what it is by the photo. It could just be the way the hair falls. It could be a slight mismatch of body to head neck size. 

[steeljane42]

13 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

It could be a slight mismatch of body to head neck size. 

It does look like this. Could be because Lelutka Evo requires neck size of 0, while Origins needs 5. Easy to forget to change it back while checking different heads.

[Gabriele Graves]

37 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I don't see a seam either, but I do see something.

I'm wondering if what they are identifying is that little jagged edge that seems to be poking out ever so slightly. There's no telling what it is by the photo. It could just be the way the hair falls. It could be a slight mismatch of body to head neck size. 

I agree and it is an illusion due to the hair falling over that area of the neck.  I think this is the problem with SL pictures, there are a lot of "clues" to the brain that make you think you see things.

For example, the opposite side of the neck isn't smooth because the neck mesh with Origins heads hasn't been smoothed like with the new universal neck and so those two places where the neck widens isn't curved as much as you would expect a neck to be.  Add to this the variegation of the skin textures themselves which is a blend of different but similarly coloured pixels (aka like a noise effect) it isn't hard to believe some people may think they see lines because the brain is trying to make sense of the noise.  This is especially so if in addition to the visual clues, they are expecting to see a line because it has been repeatedly confirmed by others that there is a problem.

This phenomenon is common and affects us all at times.  You can read about it here:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080215103210.htm

 

Edited to say that the neck was actually matched as perfectly as was possible.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Gabriele Graves
small correction to wording, typos.

[Gabriele Graves]

 

14 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

It does look like this. Could be because Lelutka Evo requires neck size of 0, while Origins needs 5. Easy to forget to change it back while checking different heads.

Yes, that picture was taken at the correct size for Origins with Maitreya.

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I have zoomed by 1600% on the original 4K picture on my 4K monitor and showed it to a handful of different people from friends and family and none of them can see any seam on the neck.  I cannot account for what you perceive but as I said, if that picture of the neck is a problem for anyone then they are going to be permanently disappointed with any Lelutka combination available in SL currently.

You're right in that it's not really a quote unquote seam on your avatar...it's just darker towards the top of the neck right about where the head and torso textures would meet.  I have that too on some of my BOM skins, it's not really a seam but the it's the shadows acting oddly and it's darker towards the top.  I have this far more-so on BOM skins.  But, then again I was always Deetalez before and she doesn't have seams I've ever noticed before, although if I would make an unusual jawline for a fantasy character such as an elf or a fairy, the shadowing under the neck doesn't work.

So, much tweaking we all go through.  

But, really it's barely even noticeable...it's just more like a bit darker towards the top part of the neck and the skin more of a flat painted look there up top.   Look up Truth's hair Eternity and look at the neck detail in that photo.  I'm wondering if that is the "new neck technology" or not?

But, back on subject...BOM...wow...I went event shopping for the first time yesterday with HIGH graphics and ADVANCED LIGHTING and breezed through no lag.  That's a world of difference with applier skin where I had to have MID lighting and no ADVANCED LIGHTING for anything busy and couldn't even hardly move but could grab maybe a demo if a I was lucky.   I will never go back to applier skin.  But, my AIDA head is cute...I want it to work with more features, especially to change eyes from other creators plus other things.  Making an alpha for the eyes I haven't quite had time to figure out that yet.

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 

Yes, that picture was taken at the correct size for Origins with Maitreya.

I saw no visible seam and assumed that was the hair cause the issue on the side.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You're right in that it's not really a quote unquote seam on your avatar...it's just darker towards the top of the neck right about where the head and torso textures would meet.  I have that too on some of my BOM skins, it's not really a seam but the it's the shadows acting oddly and it's darker towards the top.

Shadows darken areas of our bodies whether it be SL or RL, that is what they do.  I have seen light and shadow fall across bare skin in RL and make it look like there is a line drawn there.  It is inconceivable to me that anyone would find that to be a problem in either world.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

38 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Shadows darken areas of our bodies whether it be SL or RL, that is what they do.  I have seen light and shadow fall across bare skin in RL and make it look like there is a line drawn there.  It is inconceivable to me that anyone would find that to be a problem in either world.

WOW  First no one had a problem with your line.... You are taking this way to personal.  

Edited December 5, 2020 by Tarina Sewell
I am teasing you

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

41 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You're right in that it's not really a quote unquote seam on your avatar...it's just darker towards the top of the neck right about where the head and torso textures would meet.  I have that too on some of my BOM skins, it's not really a seam but the it's the shadows acting oddly and it's darker towards the top.  I have this far more-so on BOM skins.  But, then again I was always Deetalez before and she doesn't have seams I've ever noticed before, although if I would make an unusual jawline for a fantasy character such as an elf or a fairy, the shadowing under the neck doesn't work.

So, much tweaking we all go through.  

But, really it's barely even noticeable...it's just more like a bit darker towards the top part of the neck and the skin more of a flat painted look there up top.   Look up Truth's hair Eternity and look at the neck detail in that photo.  I'm wondering if that is the "new neck technology" or not?

But, back on subject...BOM...wow...I went event shopping for the first time yesterday with HIGH graphics and ADVANCED LIGHTING and breezed through no lag.  That's a world of difference with applier skin where I had to have MID lighting and no ADVANCED LIGHTING for anything busy and couldn't even hardly move but could grab maybe a demo if a I was lucky.   I will never go back to applier skin.  But, my AIDA head is cute...I want it to work with more features, especially to change eyes from other creators plus other things.  Making an alpha for the eyes I haven't quite had time to figure out that yet.

Also, the fact they put SL on the cloud helps.

[Rowan Amore]

48 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You're right in that it's not really a quote unquote seam on your avatar...it's just darker towards the top of the neck right about where the head and torso textures would meet.  I have that too on some of my BOM skins, it's not really a seam but the it's the shadows acting oddly and it's darker towards the top.  I have this far more-so on BOM skins.  But, then again I was always Deetalez before and she doesn't have seams I've ever noticed before, although if I would make an unusual jawline for a fantasy character such as an elf or a fairy, the shadowing under the neck doesn't work.

So, much tweaking we all go through.  

But, really it's barely even noticeable...it's just more like a bit darker towards the top part of the neck and the skin more of a flat painted look there up top.   Look up Truth's hair Eternity and look at the neck detail in that photo.  I'm wondering if that is the "new neck technology" or not?

But, back on subject...BOM...wow...I went event shopping for the first time yesterday with HIGH graphics and ADVANCED LIGHTING and breezed through no lag.  That's a world of difference with applier skin where I had to have MID lighting and no ADVANCED LIGHTING for anything busy and couldn't even hardly move but could grab maybe a demo if a I was lucky.   I will never go back to applier skin.  But, my AIDA head is cute...I want it to work with more features, especially to change eyes from other creators plus other things.  Making an alpha for the eyes I haven't quite had time to figure out that yet.

None of your heads came with an eye alpha?  You can get a free one on the MP.

[FairreLilette]

44 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Shadows darken areas of our bodies whether it be SL or RL, that is what they do.  I have seen light and shadow fall across bare skin in RL and make it look like there is a line drawn there.  It is inconceivable to me that anyone would find that to be a problem in either world.

No, I said it's barely noticeable.  It's noticeable because I said that is where the seams meet.  It's very difficult to get the shading correctly there as the textures split in the middle of the neck where I said it's a bit noticeable as darker up top - meaning that is one texture where I said just a bit darker.  Then a texture connects right there and it's called the torso texture but it has a bit of neck too on the torso texture which is another texture.  It isn't really very noticeable at all, however.