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20 hours ago, Hawk Silverman said:

So, does this inactivity fee apply to the Lindens I have stored in my account? If so, goodbye Second Life. I'm not going to be nickeled and dimed just because I forgot I had a buck fifty sitting in an alt account from 10 years ago.

This is why I hopped on chat to ask the important questions for those who have a few measly cents in their USD balance.

My understanding is you have to login once a year to peek at your USD cash balance at this link to avoid the inactivity fee.

 

mangohasquestions.png

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On 7/1/2019 at 10:33 PM, Fionalein said:

Bw. Tilea needs seperate EU servers for EU customer data to remain GDPR compliant, have fun solving the constraints of international business, LL ;)

 

Tilia is not new, and already has a EU presence. I am in the UK and every time I purchase L$ or pay my tier, it shows up as a payment to Tilia on my bank statement. And it has done for years.  IIRC, Tilia in Europe is based in Ireland.

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"The maximum fee is your current balance"... holy sh*t. So basically.. there isn't a "fee".. there is "If you don't use your account within 12 months we'll close it and take all your money."

Nice. 

Granted, it isn't difficult to keep your account open, however, it's still a gross action on LL's part. Oh.. sorry, "Tilia's" part. 

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8 minutes ago, Jovial Murasaki said:

"The maximum fee is your current balance"... holy sh*t. So basically.. there isn't a "fee".. there is "If you don't use your account within 12 months we'll close it and take all your money."

Nice. 

Granted, it isn't difficult to keep your account open, however, it's still a gross action on LL's part. Oh.. sorry, "Tilia's" part. 

I think you are misreading this. The key word is "maximum," which simply means that the most they can deduct is what you have. That in turn means that you can't be charged extra, over and above your actual balance. That's a good thing.

They have said that the actual fee has not yet been determined, but I am pretty certain it will not involve simply swallowing your balance, whatever it may be, whole.

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1 hour ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

I read the wild OMGTILIA thread and then I read theitr Q&A thread and some poor soul clearly went THRU that whole clusterfuzz of a thread and took the most asked questions right from there and answered them!

Actually I'm quite impressed by that - with a thread that size, that's no mean feat.

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10 hours ago, Digit Gears said:

Gonna give a small boost to the two Linden posts for any late comers

I have already provided my personal info to Linden Lab in the past. Do I need to provide it again? Many of us have already provided such ID information for verification, are we exempt from having to provide it again because the information is already on record?

In general, most Residents will not need to resubmit the information if it has been previously provided. However, there may be some instances where Tilia may need to collect and verify the documentation again. 

See-This is good to know. I have no choice but to go with Tilia, but maybe the process will be a bit less painful if I don't have to resubmit all my info again.

Yes people, LL has had all my info for years and I'm still alive! The sky didn't fall and the world didn't end!

 

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50 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think you are misreading this. The key word is "maximum," which simply means that the most they can deduct is what you have. That in turn means that you can't be charged extra, over and above your actual balance. That's a good thing.

They have said that the actual fee has not yet been determined, but I am pretty certain it will not involve simply swallowing your balance, whatever it may be, whole.

I believe this is a bookkeeping measure, every 12 months they have the opportunity of "closing" your record and erasing financial data they have on you. This essentially reducing risks.

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I thought perhaps people would have read the information more thoroughly and would have calmed down. But no, the sky is still falling, the aliens still invading, and a giant asteroid is about to destroy the planet. So much angst for something that's not really a big deal. Linden Lab is trying to keep SL going; if it goes away then so do they. LL says they needed to do this to avoid harming the SL economy. They're in a better position to know than any of us are, so give them a break.

Go to this thread , in which the Lindens themselves are answering questions. Read the information at the top, and if you still have a question submit it in that thread.

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6 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

It just dawned on me that I probably have alts that at one time held premium accounts and have long since downgraded to basic that most likely have a couple of dollars USD$ still in their balances. Heck it could even be more than a couple of dollars. What a pain in the butt for LL to have to carry my forgotten money around in their data base. I don't blame them for charging an inactivity fee. :) The question now is since I've never cashed out from any account, other than Blush's, how would I even move that money? And is it even worth my bothering with it? The only reason those accounts ever had a cash balance at all was just for paying the annual premium fee.

You can apply it to a marketplace purchase - at the payment screen where you confirm that you are paying with your Linden balance, you can use any USD credit you have on that account.  You can send a gift from your alt to your main or something similar.

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1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Ahhhh .. I thought you meant $600 a month. Gosh if it's only $600 a year .. that's $50 a month. So anyone who takes out at least $50 a month has to give their tax info. I wouldn't think there would be many who haven't already had to give over their information with the threshold being sooooooooooooooo low. 

Thanks for clarifying though .. I was confused. :D 

Sure. Actually it turns out there are LOTS of creators that never cash out -- this includes ones in major events. I had no clue until I started IMing friends to tell them about the changes and they told me they never cash out LOL.   So surprise!!!

And my 600 was at month one so you were on the right track, it is just for the whole year (or was--- I have no idea what the rules are now.    

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43 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I believe this is a bookkeeping measure, every 12 months they have the opportunity of "closing" your record and erasing financial data they have on you. This essentially reducing risks.

It's called closing the books at the end of the fiscal year. No business carries unpaid account balances into the new fiscal year. It is all written off as a loss on income taxes, federal and state.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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6 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I wonder just how much money the lab is sitting on from inactive accounts. You know those pennies add up! I can imagine that there must be a tidy little sum of cash that's being held.

a bit like large chain store gift cards.  Get a gift card for $50 - gifter pays $50. Giftee buys a thing for $49.95. 6 months later the gift card ages out and thanks for the 5 cents * tens of thousands.

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Wow...

Right to privacy act is out the window...  in violation of federal laws...

LL doesnt accept L$ btw.. so this DOES affect everyone not renting from a 3rd party. This also affects anyone running a marketplace shop to support themselves or their family, and now with a penalty if you are not doing enough business....

Whichever MBA you hired for this, you should have flogged and then fired. 

I will close my shop immediately.

Jenn

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2 minutes ago, MordsithJenn said:

Wow...

Right to privacy act is out the window...  in violation of federal laws...

LL doesnt accept L$ btw.. so this DOES affect everyone not renting from a 3rd party. This also affects anyone running a marketplace shop to support themselves or their family, and now with a penalty if you are not doing enough business....

Whichever MBA you hired for this, you should have flogged and then fired. 

I will close my shop immediately.

Jenn

No arguing with your sentiment be US folks lost there right to privacy long ago. 

 

They have said OFFICIALLY a couple of time that you will pay tier as always with no issues --- it is JUST the cashing out (which has been said here and sometimes in VERY BOLD a couple of dozen times.   I asked that specific question adding lots of details on the Official answer thread and we will see what they say (if they address the question).   It really can't be BOTH ways and the official statements so far HAVE been confusing, agreed. 

 

I have seen nothing about a penalty for Marketplace shops if you are not doing enough business. The ONLY penalty that has been mentioned is if you keep US dollars for over a year without even checking on their status. So I think you are confused there. 

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9 minutes ago, MordsithJenn said:

Wow...

Right to privacy act is out the window...  in violation of federal laws...

LL doesnt accept L$ btw.. so this DOES affect everyone not renting from a 3rd party. This also affects anyone running a marketplace shop to support themselves or their family, and now with a penalty if you are not doing enough business....

Whichever MBA you hired for this, you should have flogged and then fired. 

I will close my shop immediately.

Jenn

It only pertains to users who cash out, so content creators and random users who work at say clubs and stuff and use their Ls as a means of financing their RL. It isn't invading  your privacy at all, if you don't want to give out your ID and make it legit to new Federal Laws, than you can just make L and keep it in SL. Simple as that, you still have a choice.

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4 minutes ago, SerenDust said:

What about taxes? Does it change anything tax related for US citizens?

No different than now -- if you cash out over a certain amount in a year, you'll get a 1099 from them.

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11 minutes ago, SerenDust said:

What about taxes? Does it change anything tax related for US citizens?

Yeah what the person above me said. It won't change anything tax wise, LL just wants to make sure they are complying with current US laws. It doesn't mean that cause this is happening, that Taxes and stuff are changing. All that stuff will stay the same, unless you make within a certain amount one year, than you will get the appropriate form.

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1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

No different than now -- if you cash out over a certain amount in a year, you'll get a 1099 from them.

That has always been true so far, agreed. But there have been changes in the law  and something (I really don't remember all the details) about virtual currency and how it is looked at by the government that go into effect next year (add question mark here).  I think I read all about that at New World Notes some time back.  So it "may" be -- especially since everyone that cashes out anything now has to go through those "prove you are you" hoops -- that ALL amounts are reported.    You MAY not get a 1099 form but when I was working hot and heavy I got them from some companies for very small amounts like a 100 US. So it also depends on the company sending out the notices.  

 

Some research should be done on that for anyone that hasn't reported before. Luna said something about changes for "hobbiest" businesses.  You can also of course report as a regular business -- likely a bit dependent on how much you take in.   Keep track yourself which is easy and report. Or if you really aren't making all that much to cash out, it is likely much easier just to spend what you earn.  

 

If I was someone who hadn't already given all my info to LL, and didn't make a ton here, I would think long and hard about cashing out and putting that info into Tilia.  Unfortunately that boat has passed for me :D.  

 

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3 minutes ago, SerenDust said:

What about taxes? Does it change anything tax related for US citizens?

no.  People who are already cashing out, are typically already declaring this in compliance with the tax laws as applicable to them. So no additional effect on them from this

the only people who may be affected are those who are not declaring at the moment when they should be.  Affected in the sense that Tilia is now fully-compliant with all the legal and regulatory requirements, and there is now a real-world identifiable record of any withdrawal from Tilia. A record which will be provided to the tax department when asked for by the tax department.  (like if the person of interest to the tax department is being audited)  

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14 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

That has always been true so far, agreed. But there have been changes in the law  and something (I really don't remember all the details) about virtual currency and how it is looked at by the government that go into effect next year (add question mark here).  I think I read all about that at New World Notes some time back.  So it "may" be -- especially since everyone that cashes out anything now has to go through those "prove you are you" hoops -- that ALL amounts are reported.    You MAY not get a 1099 form but when I was working hot and heavy I got them from some companies for very small amounts like a 100 US. So it also depends on the company sending out the notices.  

 

Some research should be done on that for anyone that hasn't reported before. Luna said something about changes for "hobbiest" businesses.  You can also of course report as a regular business -- likely a bit dependent on how much you take in.   Keep track yourself which is easy and report. Or if you really aren't making all that much to cash out, it is likely much easier just to spend what you earn.  

 

If I was someone who hadn't already given all my info to LL, and didn't make a ton here, I would think long and hard about cashing out and putting that info into Tilia.  Unfortunately that boat has passed for me :D.  

 

Well, in the firm legal sense of it all, any income, including 'hobby income' was always supposed to be reported to the IRS.  There just wasn't really any way for them to know though if they never received any 1099 data from an 'employer' (loose term for the role that LL would be in that scenario).  And, like any other type of income, you can write off expenses related to it -- though the 'misc expense deduction' went away, which probably is where a lot of hobby income related expenses fell.  

Given the scrutiny of virtual currency these days, it is possible that everyone that does any cash out any amount might end up with a 1099 in the future.  

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The only people affected negatively by this are people who have a distaste for being who they say they are when doing business.

If you are using Second Life for income, whole or in part, you are doing nothing different than somebody who operates a brick and mortar business.

As for accepting the TOS to use SL, it makes sense. Tilia is a portion of Linden Lab, thus a portion of Second Life's operation. You are merely agreeing that should you need to use it, you'll never violate its terms, and that you'll never decide to use it maliciously. You need to also agree that should you do so, your account will face sanction and you have no recourse.

Anyone expecting to be allowed to use Second Life without agreeing to such terms really doesn't get it.

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This whole Tilia thing to me seems like unnecessary regulatory overhead and additional layers of bureaucracy and regulations that have not been necessary for the entire 16 years of Second Life's online presence, but are now suddenly relevant because.... reasons?

My greatest fear is that this beautiful  Virtual World may soon no longer be as great as it once was...

To my Knowledge as things have always been before:

"Linden Labs or LL" is a parent company. It has a subsidiary called "Second Life or SL."

In the future this relationship will change to:

Linden Labs or LL" is a parent company. It has a subsidiary called "Second Life or SL.", also now there is a 2nd subsidiary known as "Tilia"

In short where 2 companies were needed now a 3rd is now necessary for no good reason as far as I can see. Why can't either of the first two companies handle this process, and why must a 3rd company be brought into the mix? Why add a 2nd virtual currency known as "tokens" or whatever they are doing? What was wrong with good old fashioned USD & L$? Will the Lindex currency exchange now have a 2nd virtual currency known as the token?

People ALREADY have premium accounts, and payment info on file, and pay taxes on their virtual earnings, and all that jazz. Why are they now being so duplicitous and redundant adding more red tape? People like things simple when it comes to this sort of thing. Imagine if you wanted to make a youtube account. Then you gotta give sign up for both google, and some 2nd new company also owned by google and give them a photo ID and your Social Security Number or a Passport... That's just not cool.

With all the scams, and the hacking, and data leaks that go on online... People don't want to take additional risks and not get additional rewards in compensation for the inconvenience. The fact they even do this dreadfully unpopular thing and then offer nothing of benefit with it is poor management.

imagine it like this. Imagine second life is a pizza shop in real life. We will call it Lindominos Pizza... You just want a pizza... So you get on the phone with your local Lindominos Pizza shop. One Large Pizza please... The Pizza shop employee on the other end says, "Sure thing, now I'm just going to need to get your Social Security number, and bank info." Um... Okay... I just want a pizza, but whatever.... So you give them this information reluctantly complying. After you fill that information out, they redirect you to the Lindominos Box company. Pizza is required to be in a box. So you gotta deal with the  box company too... You just want a pizza.... You just want a pizza... Okay so you deal with this box company now too... Turns out the box company owns the pizza company, ya whatever big hassle... You like the pizza though. Then you order pizza from this place for years and years and years... You are use to the way it is. Way too much overhead as it is... Whatever though, you love that pizza! Then one day you get a newsletter from the Lindominos Pizza company. Turns out the Lindominos Box company wants you to sign up with the Lindominos Dough company as well. You can't have the pizza without the Dough... They do this all the while not offering some sort of free pizza coupon or anything in compensation. You a happy customer? I think not!

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1 minute ago, lurarose said:

This whole Tilia thing to me seems like unnecessary regulatory overhead and additional layers of bureaucracy and regulations that have not been necessary for the entire 16 years of Second Life's online presence, but are now suddenly relevant because.... reasons?

My greatest fear is that this beautiful  Virtual World may soon no longer be as great as it once was...

To my Knowledge as things have always been before:

"Linden Labs or LL" is a parent company. It has a subsidiary called "Second Life or SL."

In the future this relationship will change to:

Linden Labs or LL" is a parent company. It has a subsidiary called "Second Life or SL.", also now there is a 2nd subsidiary known as "Tilia"

In short where 2 companies were needed now a 3rd is now necessary for no good reason as far as I can see. Why can't either of the first two companies handle this process, and why must a 3rd company be brought into the mix? Why add a 2nd virtual currency known as "tokens" or whatever they are doing? What was wrong with good old fashioned USD & L$? Will the Lindex currency exchange now have a 2nd virtual currency known as the token?

People ALREADY have premium accounts, and payment info on file, and pay taxes on their virtual earnings, and all that jazz. Why are they now being so duplicitous and redundant adding more red tape? People like things simple when it comes to this sort of thing. Imagine if you wanted to make a youtube account. Then you gotta give sign up for both google, and some 2nd new company also owned by google and give them a photo ID and your Social Security Number or a Passport... That's just not cool.

With all the scams, and the hacking, and data leaks that go on online... People don't want to take additional risks and not get additional rewards in compensation for the inconvenience. The fact they even do this dreadfully unpopular thing and then offer nothing of benefit with it is poor management.

imagine it like this. Imagine second life is a pizza shop in real life. We will call it Lindominos Pizza... You just want a pizza... So you get on the phone with your local Lindominos Pizza shop. One Large Pizza please... The Pizza shop employee on the other end says, "Sure thing, now I'm just going to need to get your Social Security number, and bank info." Um... Okay... I just want a pizza, but whatever.... So you give them this information reluctantly complying. After you fill that information out, they redirect you to the Lindominos Box company. Pizza is required to be in a box. So you gotta deal with the  box company too... You just want a pizza.... You just want a pizza... Okay so you deal with this box company now too... Turns out the box company owns the pizza company, ya whatever big hassle... You like the pizza though. Then you order pizza from this place for years and years and years... You are use to the way it is. Way too much overhead as it is... Whatever though, you love that pizza! Then one day you get a newsletter from the Lindominos Pizza company. Turns out the Lindominos Box company wants you to sign up with the Lindominos Dough company as well. You can't have the pizza without the Dough... They do this all the while not offering some sort of free pizza coupon or anything in compensation. You a happy customer? I think not!

You only have to give SSN and other identifying info if you "take cash out of SL" and anyone that takes more than roughly $600 per year out of SL has already had to do that in the past.  Nobody else will have to give any identifying information to Tilia.

 

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1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You only have to give SSN and other identifying info if you "take cash out of SL" and anyone that takes more than roughly $600 per year out of SL has already had to do that in the past.  Nobody else will have to give any identifying information to Tilia. 

 

 

Yes I am aware of this. It seems to be just a 2nd middle man though. Which to me seems unnecessary. Why is Tilia even a thing? Why is Second Life or Linden Labs not capable of handling this as it has in the past 16 years? People are confused and unhappy about this.

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