Ventura Magic Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 My connected Paypal account is verification enough, since they verified my identity with my linked bank account. Also Linden Lab is getting enough personal information from Paypal. That have to be good enough. Period. If not, it's probably finally time to say goodbye. Probably to US based services generally. I'm tired of this spying and data collecting. PS: Are/Is the US/Linden Lab aware that making copies (also includes photography/scan etc.) of official ID documents is forbidden (falsification of documents) by law in some countries? Just wondering... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, Ventura Magic said: PS: Are/Is the US/Linden Lab aware that making copies (also includes photography/scan etc.) of official ID documents is forbidden (falsification of documents) by law in some countries? Just wondering... Apparently not. I am amazed the LL-legal missed that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Magic Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Already logical thinking should be enough to get it, that nobody can verify if there isn't any altered data at a scan/photograph or verify that the person who did or sent the scan/photography simply doesn't have to be the owner of the ID document. That's just a few reasons, why this procedure is completely bs and doesn't make sense at all. There are good reasons, why Paypal for example is doing it the proper way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said: Apparently not. I am amazed the LL-legal missed that. Has it occurred to anyone that Linden Lab has basically been doing all of this for years and may just be aware of what laws they need to follow even if they're not specifically written down in a FAQ thrown together? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I think this is so. I have an uneasy sense that the SL economy is a little fragile right now as it is, despite what has probably been a mini-boom in certain sectors created by the new Linden Homes. It's such a complicated instrument, with so many moving parts. I wonder, thought, whether there isn't some chance that more people choosing not to cash out might not actually produce a beneficial impact? Well the Linden Homes has certainly helped MY sales and add-on sales are increasing rather than decreasing (this both on Marketplace and inworld) and while most of my sales are for house add-ons I see folks here on the forums buying all sorts of Home and Garden products to augment their new abodes. So yes, for sure, and for some -- that newness has been a very good thing sales wise. That "beneficial impact" comment of yours is very astute. I had been wondering about that a bit. On one hand there will be some (and already HAVE been some) people who have gone back to basic ( from the pool of those that didn't sign up right before the announcement for another year ^^) - so that's a sink for sure. But the folks that keep their lindens inworld (even from the group making under 600 a year who never had to share documents before) will likely be spending money on SOMETHING -- be it renting land or buying products. A good portion of the money they spend will likely go to creators that DO cash out so LL gets some money there. If more people started buying purposefully from the "little folks" (having nothing at all to do with stature or talent) that would make a dent in the bottom line. I think that is very unlikely to happen, but it could if enough folks get upset; sort of like a Robin Hood black market :D. If I decide to rent a sim, then the only money LL will be making from me from now on will be from the Marketplace and premium fees. If the Marketplace fees rise as we have expected it to for a year then I will simply take my products off the Marketplace == a very easy decision since I won't be cashing out and won't be needing much of the money I make here. I could of course eventually cancel my premium accounts but that is way down the road time-wise. Right now I am not making any giant business decisions. There could be ANOTHER benefit, one that most folks probably haven't thought about. Most of us -- me included -- get into a mindset about making money. Most of us (not all certainly) have more than what we really need and as we strive for even MORE unneeded commodities other important parts of our nature are shadowed by the focus on money. I never have needed the dollars I have been taking out of SL for over a decade. It was part of the "game" and it was fun hearing that kaching-kaching of the gacha machines; a bit like being in a casino. But somewhere in that focus, I subtly lost a little -- well "humanity" seems like a fitting word. I mostly worked. My communication was either here on the forums or via IMs. I seldom "saw" the folks I was typing at and I was certainly more closeted than I had been as Chic before she was making much money. But since changing my focus AWAY from money (the not cashing out decision) I have been chatting in person with friends and even helping out (for free) with products and decisions. It has been much like the return of the olden days (another thread of the past week or so which has been much fun). So even though painful, the Tilia announcement HAS had a positive effect for me. Certainly one unforeseen. My new plan and focus has no monetary element; it is in fact going to be completely free -- and I hope it brings us a tiny bit closer back to our SL roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Adam Spark said: I was reading the Tilia TOS and their privacy policy link sends me to the Linden Research Privacy Policy, currently dated May 25th, 2018. LL Privacy Policy is a document every one of us has agreed to already. Which would make perfect sense, since Tilia is Linden Lab. To not trust one is to not trust the other, and if you don't trust Linden Lab, why are you doing business here? And if you are not doing business here, this doesn't concern you. Collection of SSN and/or other identifying information has been happening in business since the dawn of such documentation. The practice predates SL by decades at a minimum. I would be more terrified if I knew Linden Lab WASN'T doing this. That's interesting because when "I" went to the link stating "privacy policy" from a LL document -- like the email I believe (not sure) I DEFINITELY wasn't sent to the LL privacy policy. If you type Tilia Privacy Policy you will find the correct one that many of us read since there were many comments (and blog posts) on what was in that document. So I think you just found a wrong (old maybe) link on a webpage that needs to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Magic Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Has it occurred to anyone that Linden Lab has basically been doing all of this for years and may just be aware of what laws they need to follow even if they're not specifically written down in a FAQ thrown together? Maybe. No idea. Linden Lab's skills are not exactly in clear and transparent communications, that's not exactly new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Has it occurred to anyone that Linden Lab has basically been doing all of this for years No. LL doesn't have a scan of my ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said: No. LL doesn't have a scan of my ID. Did they ask you for it? Are you cashing out an amount that would require them to ask you for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Did they ask you for it? Are you cashing out an amount that would require them to ask you for it? No. I have paid out a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Vick Forcella said: No. I have paid out a few times. Here's the thing. Linden Lab can't make you do anything illegal in your country. And you can't make Linden Lab do anything illegal in their country. So, people who aren't willing or able to do everything Linden Lab needs to do under the law they need to follow aren't going to get cash-outs. It's that simple. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: It's that simple. If Linden Lab doesn't follow the laws of my country it can get banned from my country. If it gets banned from my country it will get banned from the rest of the EU. It's that simple. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Vick Forcella said: If Linden Lab doesn't follow the laws of my country it can get banned from my country. If it gets banned from my country it will get banned from the rest of the EU. It's that simple. Then nobody in Europe will get cash-outs, will they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry Crystal Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I would imagine if it came to that then some accommodation would need to be made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Then nobody in Europe will get cash-outs, will they? It's that simple. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Magic Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: So, people who aren't willing or able to do everything Linden Lab needs to do under the law they need to follow aren't going to get cash-outs. It's that sim They won't be able because Linden Lab will have high punishments in Europe or no business in Europe anymore at all. Microsoft and Facebook for example had to learn it the hard way as well. And personally i don't blame Linden Lab for following laws. I blame stupid laws then for disrespecting other countries laws and not accepting international standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 They will probably have to find another way for those people in other counties that is still within the law and acceptable.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said: They will probably have to find another way for those people in other counties that is still within the law and acceptable.. You can read that Tilia is flexible towards the UK and people without an ID. I expect they will find a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ventura Magic said: They won't be able because Linden Lab will have high punishments in Europe or no business in Europe anymore at all. Microsoft and Facebook for example had to learn it the hard way as well. And personally i don't blame Linden Lab for following laws. I blame stupid laws then for disrespecting other countries laws and not accepting international standards. Some interesting readings here and here. I expect LL is well aware and is trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vick Forcella Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said: I expect LL is well aware and is trying. LL doesn't want this to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said: They will probably have to find another way for those people in other counties that is still within the law and acceptable.. what Vick and Ventura will have to work out for themselves is: How are they going to show their government-issued ID to a company in another country ?. The dutch law doesn't forbid a company from asking a person to show their ID, passport or drivers license. What it says is that the company can't keep a copy of it without the permission of the person who owns the ID there are 2 different things involved with this, when dealing remotely with a company all the remote company has to do is ask for a facsimile of the ID to aid them in identifying the person in the real world, the person can either agree or not. If the person agrees and does so then once identity is confirmed to the satisfaction of the company, then the person under the GDPR can require the company to delete their copy of the facsimile the two things involved are identification of a person, and the subsequent storage and use of that documentation after identification has been established with a non-remote company, like a hotel for example. the person is asked to produce identification. The person does this by showing the hotelier their passport a thing that the person has to understand, if they will not show their identification papers then the hotel does not have to take them in as a guest 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Their main concern is international money laundering..Well the laws main concern anyways.. LL will do what they have to do to stay in line with Federal laws. But since there has been a law around since after 9/11 and people over in other countries have been cashing out for almost all of second life's,life,and other companies have found a way to work with these other countries.. It's a really good chance LL will find a way as well to where both sides walk away smiling,sort of ..hehehe.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 12 hours ago, Chic Aeon said: I realize not many people will be opting out of cashing out, but SOME will. You can cash out without being required to submit your personal info. So using your Lindens to pay your premium shouldn't be an issue. It's only if you process that credit after cashing out to your RL paypal account that you are required to provide identification. So why would anyone opt out of cashing out? The only reason I can see anyone doing this is if they totally are not reading the info provided by the lab or have drawn a conclusion based on misinformation and then refuse to amend their conclusion once they've been given the correct information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mollymews said: what Vick and Ventura will have to work out for themselves is: How are they going to show their government-issued ID to a company in another country ?. The dutch law doesn't forbid a company from asking a person to show their ID, passport or drivers license. What it says is that the company can't keep a copy of it without the permission of the person who owns the ID there are 2 different things involved with this, when dealing remotely with a company all the remote company has to do is ask for a facsimile of the ID to aid them in identifying the person in the real world, the person can either agree or not. If the person agrees and does so then once identity is confirmed to the satisfaction of the company, then the person under the GDPR can require the company to delete their copy of the facsimile the two things involved are identification of a person, and the subsequent storage and use of that documentation after identification has been established with a non-remote company, like a hotel for example. the person is asked to produce identification. The person does this by showing the hotelier their passport a thing that the person has to understand, if they will not show their identification papers then the hotel does not have to take them in as a guest That makes a bit more sense now.. I don't think LL actually stores that stuff anyways.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said: That makes a bit more sense now.. I don't think LL actually stores that stuff anyways.. there is no need for them to either. All that LL has to do is attest to the regulator that they are satisfied that the person they are giving money too has been correctly identified, and that they LL have a process for determining their attested satisfaction, and that the process conforms with the regulatory requirements 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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