Thoughts on the Town Hall meeting?

[Fionalein]

1 hour ago, Syn Anatine said:

That is not what I meant at all, LittleMe Jewel explained it well and I believed that so did I in my initial post.

When was the last time you went shopping? A good 50% of merchants sell their products in boxes that you need to rez to unpack, which would be impossible if they disallowed rezzing for basic accounts. This would be nothing short of a gamble for a basic account to shop at all.

... and thus say goodbye to all the Lindens they buy (believe it or not, the basic avis do too)

Edited April 23, 2018 by Fionalein

[Solar Legion]

5 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

That is not what I meant at all, LittleMe Jewel explained it well and I believed that so did I in my initial post.

When was the last time you went shopping? A good 50% of merchants sell their products in boxes that you need to rez to unpack, which would be impossible if they disallowed rezzing for basic accounts. This would be nothing short of a gamble for a basic account to shop at all.

You seem to be forgetting that there are people out there that actually believe that Linden Lab allowing Basic Accounts access to Second Life for free was The Beginning of the End (tm).

[So Whimsy]

Just now, Fionalein said:

... and thus say goodbye to all the Lindens they buy (believe it or not, the basic avis to too)

Absolutely.

And those accounts without PIOF get Lindens by working at clubs or hunting in the Linden Realms or doing other type of labor. What would they even do with the Lindens they earn then if they can no longer shop within the MP -or- in world as they cannot know if they get a box they need to rez (yay, they just wasted their Linden as they can't rez) or they get a box with an unpacker script (yay, no wasted Lindens, they can actually unpack their purchase!)

No. Just no, LL cannot do this. It would screw over the customers -and- the merchants.

[So Whimsy]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

You seem to be forgetting that there are people out there that actually believe that Linden Lab allowing Basic Accounts access to Second Life for free was The Beginning of the End (tm).

Narrow minded folks. If they hadn't made that move SL would have never grown as big as it did. I wonder what excuse they found when the end didn't come, makes me think of the false prophets in RL, the world will end tomorrow because reasons! It didn't end? Oh, I meant tomorrow but next year just you wait you heathen!

[Klytyna]

On 4/23/2018 at 11:57 AM, Syn Anatine said:

Narrow minded folks. If they hadn't made that move SL would have never grown as big as it did. I wonder what excuse they found when the end didn't come, makes me think of the false prophets in RL, the world will end tomorrow because reasons! It didn't end? Oh, I meant tomorrow but next year just you wait you heathen!

Worse... There are some who think an SL where 90% of the current population had been driven off, all the private islands closed and switched off, where it was JUST Premi-[REDACTED] Party  members living on the Madlands in genteel isolation, would somehow make SL "better"...

At least until they found there were no customers in their Madlands Mainstores, and no music lovers tipping in their Madlands Clubs, and nobody to talk to at their Madlands social venues, and nobody renting their over priced Madlands Slumlord microparcels, and LL started turning off empty Madlands sims, and talking about closing the grid because there wasn't enough cash coming in to pay the electricity bill...

People who actually think that 9 % of the population paying a $1 a month for a free prim hovel in a Premi-[REDACTED] housing ghetto is what pays to keep SL open.

People who have claimed, right here on the forum that shopping in world doesn't contribute much to the SL economy, becausze they choose to overlook the fact that shopping pays the tier on the stores parcel, that allows the sim to make enough money for it to remain online.

That's a level of weapons grade stupidity, that seriously disappoints me, but which, based off 6 years of listening to 2nd Wave Lastnamer Entitlement Syndrome suffering  Premi-[REDACTED] Madlanders, doesn't surprise me.

...

"Make the Madlands great again... And make the Islander peasants pay for it! Punish the peasants who pay to keep SL open, stop them using the things they buy from us! SL is doomed unless my 1024 can be sold INSTANTLY for 50 L$ a sqm!"

...

It's the same mentality that claimed that America would fail unless Boss Cowkicker could sell stringy tough murican-meat for subsidised pro rancher prices... Because having to compete against better meat from elsewhere might threaten Boss Cowkicker's 19th C Cattle Baron Lifestyle, and to hell with the 99% of the American population who didn't live on a 500,000 acre patch of semi-dessert scrubland, and who wanted a steak you didn't have to beat with a 20lb sledge hammer for an hour before trying to chew it...

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Corky Linden

[Phil Deakins]

1 hour ago, Syn Anatine said:

That is not what I meant at all, LittleMe Jewel explained it well and I believed that so did I in my initial post.

When was the last time you went shopping? A good 50% of merchants sell their products in boxes that you need to rez to unpack, which would be impossible if they disallowed rezzing for basic accounts. This would be nothing short of a gamble for a basic account to shop at all.

It wasn't something I was suggesting to do. It was just an initial thought about how LL could lower a basic account, which, if I remember correctly, was reported as having been said by Ebbe in the meeting. Nevertheless, by inability to rez something, I really didn't mean inability to wear things. So I still don't see that it would actually break anything. We can wear boxes to unpack their contents without the need of any auto-unpack script. And, of course, we can wear boxes that auto-unpack too. So none of that would be broken.

When was the last time I went shopping? I've no idea. I've never been a shopper. Oh yes. I shopped for a suit for a friend's wedding last year. Well. I didn't really shop as such. I just bought the first one I saw because it looked quite reasonable.

[LittleMe Jewell]

32 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

  We can wear boxes to unpack their contents without the need of any auto-unpack script.

There are cases -- certain permission combinations probably - that will prevent you from pulling objects out of a 'worn' box.  I'm not inworld, so can't verify the specifics. However, it is the reason that we sometimes have to TP home to try on a DEMO if it comes in a box without an auto-unpack--when-worn script.  I actually ran in to this just this past weekend and it always ticks me off when it happens.

Edited April 23, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Clover Jinx]

11 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

There are cases -- certain permission combinations probably - that will prevent you from pulling objects out of a 'worn' box.  I'm not inworld, so can't verify the specifics. However, it is the reason that we sometimes have to TP home to try on a DEMO if it comes in a box without an auto-unpack--when-worn script.  I actually ran in to this just this past weekend and it always ticks me off when it happens.

"No copy" items are the culprits.

[Fionalein]

Prevent the plebs form creating items in SL? Rezzing vehicles to drive? Living in cheap small houses the landowners rent out to them? Yeah sure, they will nail that coffin lid  why don't people think through stuff like that? You would only do that if you want to kill off the plattform, as that would create the biggest exodus SL ever saw...

Edited April 23, 2018 by Fionalein

[LittleMe Jewell]

I think originally the idea was that people could provide payment info to get those privileges. The original thinking was likely that the accounts with no PIOF would mostly be the true griefers, etc...  I don't think it was initially realized how many people actually make or earn enough L$ inworld to live a decent SLife without ever having to put in payment info.

I don't think it was ever intended to apply to the folks that do contribute to SL in some monetary way, even without payment info.

[Chic Aeon]

Once again -- remember please that there has been NO OFFICIAL info on the lowering on basic memberships and what that lowering might be. There are lots of options not mentioned here and likely some we haven't thought of. There could be a limit on the hours you could spend in world (Kitely had something akin to this at one time), it could be limiting sim usage to certain areas like education sims and Linden Public lands -- there are LOTS of possibilities.   

There has been NO announcement on this (this comment especially for folks that didn't bother to read the OP). 

I remember reading that in the VERY early days there was (or was proposed I am not sure on that) a charge for rezzing a prim (much like mesh upload charges now I guess). The populous went wild and revolted or whatever. I saw screenshots of protesters with signs etc :D. This was already history by the time I arrived but some folks will likely remember.  The charge never happened or was repealed (again not sure about those details). While The Lab has historically made some pretty bad decisions here and there, it seems like they are doing better these days and thinking things through (and asking -- and LISTENING -- to the populous) before going forward.  

 

So not panicking would be a good plan IMHO. 

[Klytyna]

On 4/23/2018 at 3:49 PM, Chic Aeon said:

it could be limiting sim usage to certain areas like education sims and Linden Public lands

"Dear  NON-Premi-[REDACTED] thank you for paying L$5000 a week into the SL economy to rent a 1/4 sim parcel in the Islands, however, due to LL thinking self entitled Premi-[REDACTED]'s are the only people that matter, they have implemented one of those insane 'kill off sl' ideas from the weekly Lick-A-Linden meetings.

As a result, you are not allowed to visit the sim on which your home lies. You are confined to the University of Stupid, and the LL Infohubs. 

Have a nice SL"

On 4/23/2018 at 3:49 PM, Chic Aeon said:

there are LOTS of possibilities

And 99.999% of them are examples of weapons grade stupidity.

On 4/23/2018 at 3:49 PM, Chic Aeon said:

While The Lab has historically made some pretty bad decisions here and there

And this years award for chronic understatement goes to...

On 4/23/2018 at 3:49 PM, Chic Aeon said:

asking -- and LISTENING -- to the populous) before going forward

But WHICH population, the ones who provide the majority of their revenue stream or... the Premi-[REDACTED] Party...

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Corky Linden

[Rhonda Huntress]

21 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I remember reading that in the VERY early days there was (or was proposed I am not sure on that) a charge for rezzing a prim (much like mesh upload charges now I guess). The populous went wild and revolted or whatever.

You have go way way back to the very first days.  Back before there were linden dollars.  Besides the regular subscription fee, your weekly sim usage fee was determined by how many prims you had out.

[Fionalein]

6 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

But WHICH population, the ones who provide the majority of their revenue stream or... the Premi-**** Party...

They do? Or the thousands of lieges of the landlords who pay them indirectly? I would not be so quick to judge who hands more dollars in their direction.

Oh silly me didn't read proper, it's late... 

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fionalein

[Klytyna]

1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Or the thousands of lieges of the landlords who pay them indirectly

That's who I was referring to... Mr. Big, ceo of megaprim estates, doesn't provide the revenue...  If rentals stop, he lets his sims close to reduce his costs, and eventually closes shop and leaves SL for some other system where he can profit by acting as a middleman.

The revenue comes from the renters,  Those NON Party members living out in the islands, or running inworld stores, or clubs out in the Islands because not being party members, they are too "untermenche" to be allowed to be on the Madlands...

That's why those party members who scream about how non-members don't "Pay Tier" and thus "dont contribute" really really annoy me.

The idea that if you don't pay your rent directly to LL in USD, that makes you a "leecher" is just fugging insulting, especially bearing in mind that those "leechers" generally are paying more per sqm than the Madlanders, and they are collectively paying it on two to three times as many sqm.

[animats]

The replies from Linden Lab management seem so unambitious. Last names. Some repricing. Minor tweaks to the experience permission system. Big deal.

First and foremost, SL needs a mobile strategy.  Since that's technically hard, they should buy one. Either Lumiya or Mobile Grid. That might be a perk of having a premium account. Mobile Grid requires server support; the client is running on a server somewhere, which sends video to the phone. Lumiya charges about US$17 a year for that. Offer 30 days free; then you have to sign up for a premium account. Mobile Grid is tied to a specific mobile device, so you can only use the freebie version once per phone.

This goes with a stronger marketing strategy. Facebook is looking vulnerable. SL wouldn't scale up that far, but taking a few nibbles out of the 10% of Facebook users who just quit has potential. We have chat! We have voice! We don't sell your info to everybody! Plus, there's a whole virtual world out there!

The graphics need to get better, up to the level of video games of a few years ago. This is mostly a problem with crappy low level of detail models.  Those need to be generated automatically, something most of the video game toolkits already do. Automatic impostor generation is needed, with not just object impostors, but impostors for entire parcels and sims.  No more "draw distance" and water in the distance.

Come on, people. Show some drive!

[Callum Meriman]

23 minutes ago, animats said:

First and foremost, SL needs a mobile strategy.  Since that's technically hard, they should buy one. Either Lumiya or Mobile Grid.

Ah well, they banned the author of Lumiya for some unknown reason... as for writing their own, I can't see that happening when they struggle to keep Linux operating.

[animats]

35 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Ah well, they banned the author of Lumiya for some unknown reason... as for writing their own, I can't see that happening when they struggle to keep Linux operating.

It's clear that LL has very limited technical resources available. But unless usage and revenue increases, or at least stops decreasing, SL will die.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, animats said:

It's clear that LL has very limited technical resources available. But unless usage and revenue increases, or at least stops decreasing, SL will die.

People like you have been saying that for ten years at least ---

and yet ---

somehow ---

we are still here and doing very well -- at least "I" am :D. 

[Chase01]

4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

There could be a limit on the hours you could spend in world (Kitely had something akin to this at one time),

I know its not official, and not your own suggestion, but this too would be a horrible idea.

They really need to start thinking outside of the box and look at creating perks that can both benefit consumers and creators. Priority entry and extra group slots are two good examples of this. Why not do something like a lottery, profile customization options, a subscription box with gifts made by our own content creators, and the list could go on and on.

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

3 minutes ago, Chase01 said:

I know its not official, and not your own suggestion, but this too would be a horrible idea.

They really need to start thinking outside of the box and look at creating perks that can both benefit consumers and creators. Priority entry and extra group slots are two good examples of this. Why not do something like a lottery, profile customization options, a subscription box with gifts made by our own content creators, and the list could go on and on.

 

 

No argument. Indeed a bad idea.

They seem to already have the new premium levels sorted out -- maybe not all the way but my inference of the statements made suggest that -- to me anyway.  It was the "downgrading" (I forgot the exact word used so that is not an actual quote) comment that had me blinking and what stated this thread.  I really didn't see that coming. And maybe it wont!

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, animats said:

It's clear that LL has very limited technical resources available. But unless usage and revenue increases, or at least stops decreasing, SL will die.

That's ridiculous.

[Skell Dagger]

2 hours ago, Chase01 said:

They really need to start thinking outside of the box and look at creating perks that can both benefit consumers and creators.

This whole discussion makes for interesting reading, especially when viewed in the light of Perks vs Punishments. Suggested 'Perks' (e.g. more free tier/more group slots/etc) for people who contribute financially or put PioF, vs suggested 'Punishments' (e.g. 'removing' rez rights) for those who don't.

I'm not sure that the idea of 'punishing' free accounts by removing abilities is the best way to grow SL and keep it moving forward.

(Would love to discuss more right now - or even phrase this post a little better -  but I've been reading this while scarfing down breakfast and am about to head out the door for work )

[Maryanne Solo]

Perk: A SLickr Flikr for POF residents.

[Penny Patton]

On 4/22/2018 at 5:31 AM, Qie Niangao said:

What I'd love to see is a Marketplace listing fee, combined with more tools for collapsing related items into single structured listings.

This brings up an important point, if LL wants to start reducing features for basic accounts, and increasing costs elswhere, LL absolutely, positively, must recognize the poor design choices and lack of polish prevalent throughout SL.

Linden Lab has been showing really good indications that they're going to be addressing many long standing issues, so that's great. I just hope they don't put the cart before the horse here and start raising costs in areas where SL frankly isn't worth it yet. Or at least showing us there will be real improvements in these areas, and soon.