Thoughts on the Town Hall meeting?

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't think the viewer was even in the TPV directory, was it?

 

Yep, it used to be, the removal line in Wiki History:

There was a thread on the forums at the time with people wondering why it was removed. The talk in that thread was the author was banned.

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

* Although the Profile shows the name unavailable. Is that how it works for banned residents, still returning a Search result?

 

Normally they are missing from both. It's more likely a sign of a banning and unbanning which hasn't been done properly.

Her last login was 23Mar18, so that is good at least.

[Penny Patton]

45 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Now allowing Basics to build, and/or not allowing them to sell, might be options. They might consider disallowing Basics from certain land, such as adult land.

These have their issues too, but I'd still rather Linden Lab focus on making Premium Accounts (and SL overall) better. If they can't see a plethora of ways to do that then frankly I worry for the future of SL.

[Phil Deakins]

3 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

These have their issues too, but I'd still rather Linden Lab focus on making Premium Accounts (and SL overall) better.

I can't disagree with that. I'm only addressing what the OP posted about Ebbe saying that they could possibly downgrade the Basic account.

[Penny Patton]

That's fair enough, it's just that I've seen SL residents focusing on how to make Basic worse whenever the topic of making Premium Accounts more popular comes up. Watching the video of the Town Hall there were even several questions asked by SL residents suggesting ways on how to make the Basic experience worse before Ebbe even brought up the idea of downgrading Basics.

Speaking of ways to improve Premium, LL has already spoken about higher fees for marketplace sales, why not give Premium accounts a break on those higher fees?

For that matter, simply improving the overall SL experience is one way LL could gain more residents overall. I love SL as much as anyone, but I hope we can all see it's a flawed product with lots of room for improvement and in particular it does not make a very good first impression on potential new users. LL is doing that now, moreso than any time I can remember in the past, and that's great. If they devote the time to it, they could regularly put out small quality of life improvements inbetween the larger, more costly improvements. That would be an investment that would add up more and more over time.

[Klytyna]

"When you understand the nature of a thing, you know what it is capable of"

6 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

Phil, are you honestly serious right now? You do not see the thoroughly explained negative effects this would have on customers and merchants alike to a point where LL would be losing a crap ton of revenue? REALLY NOW?! You can't be this ignorant.

 

6 hours ago, Fionalein said:

I'l point one out to you: It's called: "The economy"

 

6 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Really? Please explain.

"When you understand the nature of a thing, you know what it is capable of"

Please remember that you are arguing with a man who has clearly demonstrated over and over that the Argument is far more important to his pseudo-intellectual esteem than the thing being argued ABOUT.

Somebody who has publicly claimed that he USED to cash out $4000 a month from his retail business in SL during the 2nd Wave Goldrush, 11 years ago, but who has also publicly claimed that shopping isn't economically important.

Somebody who simply doesn't know very much about SL at all, who has spent the last 11 years standing in the semi-abandoned ruins of his store, with his thumb up his ass pretending the rest of the grid doesn't exist.

He's made suggestions for punishing non-premiums (including PIOF's), then denied making those suggestions while claiming he wouldn't disagree with the suggestions he didn't make, because they have "no downside", then disagreeing with the obvious downsides when pointed out to him, while re-claiming that he didn't make the suggestions he made but supports them, oh and has some enhancements to suggest, except he didn't, obviously...

"When you understand the nature of a thing, you know what it is capable of"

In his case, not a lot, ignore him, it's not worth the effort.
 

[Klytyna]

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's certainly true that land revenue depends on there being content to motivate folks to want to own land

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

revenue to LL from shopping is paltry

No Shopping, no content to rez on land, no need to rent/buy land, no land revenue... QED.

Premi-[REDACTED] Madlander Bigotry : 0    Reality: 1

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

revenue to LL from shopping is paltry

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

especially landlords converting L$ to US$ in order to pay tier

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

LL's revenue does benefit by demand for the L$, and that in turn depends on there being content folks want to buy

So, again, no shopping means no demand for the L$ that the stores uses to pay their parcel rent to the landlords who pay US$ to LL.

Premi-[REDACTED] Madlander Bigotry: 0    Reality: 2

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

but it's really deep in the noise compared to direct US$ cost of land

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

especially landlords converting L$ to US$ in order to pay tier

Remind us all again where those landlords are getting the L$, that they convert to US$ to pay tier on their land...

Oh that's right, all those non premi-[REDACTED] who rent and shop, and tip in clubs etc.

Premi-[REDACTED] Madlander Bigotry: 0    Reality : 3

THREE STRIKES and you're OUT!
 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Corky Linden

[Coby Foden]

3 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

These have their issues too, but I'd still rather Linden Lab focus on making Premium Accounts (and SL overall) better.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I can't disagree with that. I'm only addressing what the OP posted about Ebbe saying that they could possibly downgrade the Basic account.

Downgrading basics accounts seem like kind of punishment. If the existing basic accounts would remain as they are and if the new basic accounts had more limitations then there would be two classes of basic accounts. The whole idea of downgrading basic accounts is silly.

Instead of downgrading basic accounts, the premium accounts should be made more desirable.
That's the healthy way of doing things.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Coby Foden

[Chic Aeon]

Along with the the no rez idea which would obviously hurt Marketplace sales (I never box my items unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY -- such as set inside of a gacha --  but lots of folks do) there is the VERY SIMPLE reason that REZZING in integral to growth.

 

If people cannot rez they cannot learn. If they cannot learn, they cannot create.  And since enabling MORE CREATION (mentioned a few times at the Town Hall but perhaps not in the filmed segment - hence good to go to the meetings) is at the top of Linden Lab's current todo list -- I can't see that happening. 

 

There are some exceptions to this if you stretch the point.

I could learn to make a tattoo.

I could upload the texture (if uploading textures was still allowed). If not I could email the file to a trusted PREMIUM friend and have them upload I guess.

I could put the tattoo on the Marketplace (if Basic folks could still have accounts there).

I could sell the tattoo in a folder with no box. 

 

Now how many people are going to do that? LOL

 

 

There is another thing we haven't talked about (or I missed it as this has turned into a very long thread) is that there is another category.

Payment Info Used Non-Premium. That's what I am and what a lot of creators are. Limiting ANYTHING in the basic accounts for us would be disaster. My groups are filled with land groups and event groups  (and granted blogger groups which I could give up and stop blogging). I need to be able to upload mesh and textures.  Etc Etc. I can't think of anything that could disappear from the current basic account that wouldn't impact my business -- and hence NOT be good for Linden Lab.

Would I go premium? Likely. But just like other moves in the past I think that any downgrade would have such a big impact overall that a bunch of folks would just leave. There ARE people who legitimately cannot become premium (some non-US folks it seems). I really don't understand all those issues but punishing them is certainly not the answer. 

And if nothing else we do know that someone official is reading out musings and after filtering through all the clutter MAY come away with a slightly different view of downgrades.

[Coby Foden]

My question was:
"Are there any plans to upgrade the extremely bad ancient system avatar's shape mesh to present day standards? If not, why not?"

/me makes a happy dance... 
Even though no active development right now, but being on the road map, waiting for resources, it's a very good sign. 

Naturally immediately somebody in the audience commented in chat that "It would break existing content!"

It might break some ancient stuff, but who in their right mind uses them anymore?
But for major part it won't break existing content if the system avatar's mesh upgrade is done right.
Old system clothes would work right, just like they will work on mesh bodies with Bakes on Mesh.
Mesh clothes made for system avatars most probably would work right too.

[ChinRey]

8 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

but...LL has never really impressed me with the content they produce.

I don't completely agree with you there, Penny

I'm really impressed by Iris, Rizal, Pyri Peaks, Michael Linden's forgotten conference center at Kirkby and his roadwork at Davenport, Eric LInden's wooden bridges at Seascale and Borrowdale, Silent Mole's deceptively simple little builds like the tubeworms, seagrass and pathcut tubes fountain, Bloomin' Mole's wooden road along the northwest coast of Heterocera, Crazy Mole's Nautilus builds and many, many other early content Linden and Mole builds. Considering what they had to work with back then, those are seriously solid works.

[Fionalein]

23 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

My question was:
"Are there any plans to upgrade the extremely bad ancient system avatar's shape mesh to present day standards? If not, why not?"

/me makes a happy dance... 
Even though no active development right now, but being on the road map, waiting for resources, it's a very good sign. 

Naturally immediately somebody in the audience commented in chat that "It would break existing content!"

It might break some ancient stuff, but who in their right mind uses them anymore?
But for major part it won't break existing content if the system avatar's mesh upgrade is done right.
Old system clothes would work right, just like they will work on mesh bodies with Bakes on Mesh.
Mesh clothes made for system avatars most probably would work right too.

The free project Ruth 2.0 almost uses the old avi. I played around with her but must test her against some classic Linden stuff more seriously (my guess though as it's based on the Linden avi is: it will most likely fit.)

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fionalein

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

The free project Ruth 2.0 almost uses the old avi. I played around with her but must test her against some classic Linden stuff more seriously (my guess though as it's based on the Linden avi is: it will most likely fit.)

Someone in Opensim used that as the model for a Ruth 2 mesh avatar (current mesh like Lara for example) and it seems to be going well. A community project of sorts and some folks have uploaded back here to SL. The files are all opensource as far as I know, so THERE is a possible starting point :D.

This happened after I left  -- maybe nine months ago now?  But while I am sure she has issues, she looks pretty damn good for Opensim and the ladies are very happy it seems. 

It seems to me that updating the legacy avatar would go hand in hand with the bakes on mesh project which is higher up in the list if we look at the 15th year announcement. 

 

That was a segue to ----------

AND NOW BACK ON TOPIC?   We don't want things to go toooooo teeeerrrribbbblllly far astray.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

There is another thing we haven't talked about (or I missed it as this has turned into a very long thread) is that there is another category.

Payment Info Used Non-Premium. That's what I am and what a lot of creators are. Limiting ANYTHING in the basic accounts for us would be disaster. My groups are filled with land groups and event groups  (and granted blogger groups which I could give up and stop blogging). I need to be able to upload mesh and textures.  Etc Etc. I can't think of anything that could disappear from the current basic account that wouldn't impact my business -- and hence NOT be good for Linden Lab.

I was interpreting most of the 'downgrade basic' suggestions here to be only applicable to 'no payment info on file' Basic accounts.

Anything that removes from any other type of Basic account would be bad on so many levels.

[Fionalein]

17 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I was interpreting most of the 'downgrade basic' suggestions here to be only applicable to 'no payment info on file' Basic accounts.

Anything that removes from any other type of Basic account would be bad on so many levels.

Even limiting those without PIOF might be hard for some of us who simply cannot provide payment info. The only way I could see them do it is by charging different upload and cashout fees or closing the realms to us.

Prohibit creation in total? Yeah that will make the newbies stay ...

Limit adult access? Hurray, that will most likely kill of all of those adult clubs in one move as most unskilled jobs there are taken by? You guess it, ... no PIOF avis...

We're already at a point where the Lab decided to penalize non premium designers who cannot enter the event sims their own shops are represented at, ... limiting them even more might be that last straw for some of them.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fionalein

[Callum Meriman]

5 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

Naturally immediately somebody in the audience commented in chat that "It would break existing content!"

It might break some ancient stuff, but who in their right mind uses them anymore?

I have two regulars - very old 2004 regulars - who have never updated their body. I am sure there are more... are they in their right mind? Nope, but look at it from their POV;

As jagged as the shoulders are, as lumpy as the chest is, as undefined as the feet are - their 2004 system avatar with the exact same texture clothes they have worn for 14 years defines them.

Unless the lab wants to upset and lose these few fossils, updating the system body can only really be done if it's a full alpha of the legacy body, and an object that is added. Part of bakes on mesh might allow this, if a decent, fully adjustable mesh body with 100% bento is placed into library.

The Lab don't like breaking content. Removing the ability for fossils to look the same as they have for 14 or 15 years is just that.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[LittleMe Jewell]

Inara has done a transcript and recap on her website:  https://modemworld.me/april-20th-2018-town-hall-with-ebbe-altberg-transcript-with-audio/

It contains the part of that I think Chic was referring to when she started this thread:

" And it might be that as part of upcoming subscription plans that maybe you get a little bit less than you get today, if you’re not paying. So we’re trying to figure it out – and it’ll take a while to figure out all the details – what exactly can a free resident do versus a paying resident; and there might be some changes there. but free-to-play is here to stay. "

[Coby Foden]

53 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I have two regulars - very old 2004 regulars - who have never updated their body. I am sure there are more... are they in their right mind? Nope, but look at it from their POV;

As jagged as the shoulders are, as lumpy as the chest is, as undefined as the feet are - their 2004 system avatar with the exact same texture clothes they have worn for 14 years defines them.

Unless the lab wants to upset and lose these few fossils, updating the system body can only really be done if it's a full alpha of the legacy body, and an object that is added. Part of bakes on mesh might allow this, if a decent, fully adjustable mesh body with 100% bento is placed into library.

The Lab don't like breaking content. Removing the ability for fossils to look the same as they have for 14 or 15 years is just that.

So, those "fossils" are wearing system clothes. Those old system clothes can be worn on mesh bodies with Bakes on Mesh.
Most mesh bodies use system avatar UV map so they are compatible with system avatar clothes.

Nothing would prevent the upgraded system avatar to have the same UV map too. So they could use the system clothes.
No content broken. No need for "full alpha of the legacy body, and an object that is added" stuff you mentioned.

The whole idea of the upgraded system avatar is that there is no need for separate mesh body and head attachments.
That would simplify things a great deal more than what Bakes on Mesh can do.
Of course people could still wear separate mesh body/head attachments if they wanted to.
But there would be less need for those if the system avatar was excellent too.

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, Coby Foden said:

So, those "fossils" are wearing system clothes. Those old system clothes can be worn on mesh bodies with Bakes on Mesh.
Most mesh bodies use system avatar UV map so they are compatible with system avatar clothes.

Yep, but these people are defined by their lumpy, jagged, ugly bodies. Change the body mesh, their avatar changes.

That's why an upgraded body breaks content. Not saying I agree with it by the way, just that this forces a change of looks on them. The Lab are generally hesitant to do this.

[Penny Patton]

14 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I don't completely agree with you there, Penny

I'm really impressed by Iris, Rizal, Pyri Peaks, Michael Linden's forgotten conference center at Kirkby and his roadwork at Davenport, Eric LInden's wooden bridges at Seascale and Borrowdale, Silent Mole's deceptively simple little builds like the tubeworms, seagrass and pathcut tubes fountain, Bloomin' Mole's wooden road along the northwest coast of Heterocera, Crazy Mole's Nautilus builds and many, many other early content Linden and Mole builds. Considering what they had to work with back then, those are seriously solid works.

Among the people who've produced content for LL there are some very talented individuals and I don't mean to disparage their work. If we look at them as the works of talented and enthusiastic individuals, if we see them as public art displays, then sure, there's a lot to be impressed by.

But as a professional product from a multi-million dollar developer like LL? I look at the Linden Homes, the starter avatars, the various iterations of the starter and new user orientation islands. These aren't just public art, they're supposed to serve a purpose. They're supposed to impress new users, start them off on the right foot, help them get into various aspects of Second Life in a quick and fun way and yet they've never been entirely successful. That's what I'm speaking about when I say I've never been impressed. And it's not just down to the creators of the content, but the tools they have to work with and the direction they get (or fail to get) from LL. 

[Penny Patton]

And hey, every time someone suggested updated system avatars there are people quick to jump on the "it will break content" bandwagon.

This is is only true if LL goes about it poorly. There are ways to upgrade the system avatars without affecting legacy content in any way whatsoever. Such as instead of replacing the old system avatars, removing all traces of them from SL, they introduce a brand new set of system avatars in addition to the old system avatars. Allow oldbies to continue to use their old system avatars as they please with a "classic avatars" option, but make the new and improved system avatars the default.

 Personally, I'd say this would be the best way to approach this as if LL is going to give us new system avatars then they might as well go for broke. Give us a new shape system, a new avatar texture UV, some new system hair and clothing options all of which might be incompatible with the old. Use it as a blank slate to build on going forward, rather than a continuation of the flawed ideas that the original system avatar was based on.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

But as a professional product from a multi-million dollar developer like LL? I look at the Linden Homes, the starter avatars, the various iterations of the starter and new user orientation islands. These aren't just public art, they're supposed to serve a purpose.

I didn't say I completely disagreed with you either.

Also, I'm sure you noticed that all the examples I listed are quite old. Most of them predates sculpts even, let alone mesh.

[Phil Deakins]

@Penny Patton

I completely agree with the idea of not trying to accommodate everything from the past into new things. Instead, your idea of letting them run side by side is excellent. The old will fade away over time.

I don't know much at all about avatars, but I'm pretty sure it will work just fine for them. And, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't care in the slightest if the body and clothes that someone bought 5 years ago no longer work with new developments. Things improve and move on, and we have to move with them. We don't have any right, or even expectation, that what we buy today will continue to be just as good in 5 years time. Certainly, if the old can be accommodated in the new, do it, but don't hold back development just for the sake of keeping the old working well.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[loverdag]

23 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I said I'd check it when I got back, and I did. I found that you were right. No matter what I tried, I could not drag a no-copy item from within a worn object, into my inventory. So not allowing Basic accounts to rez stuff wouldn't be the best idea to degrade Basic accounts, unless things are changed so that the sort of 'stuff' that's been mentioned isn't affected. Things could be changed, but it would be no good as things are now.

Now allowing Basics to build, and/or not allowing them to sell, might be options. They might consider disallowing Basics from certain land, such as adult land.

I'm not fan of any restrictions like "no rez" for basic accounts - and it's not my intent to support it with this my post - but you made me confused with that statement. I unpack no copy items  (gachas) with the box attached on my avatar without rez and it works for me without problem. Now I read it should not work. Did I miss something? Maybe it's different in different viewers? I use Firestorm.

[Theresa Tennyson]

11 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

So, those "fossils" are wearing system clothes. Those old system clothes can be worn on mesh bodies with Bakes on Mesh.
Most mesh bodies use system avatar UV map so they are compatible with system avatar clothes.

Nothing would prevent the upgraded system avatar to have the same UV map too. So they could use the system clothes.
No content broken. No need for "full alpha of the legacy body, and an object that is added" stuff you mentioned.

The whole idea of the upgraded system avatar is that there is no need for separate mesh body and head attachments.
That would simplify things a great deal more than what Bakes on Mesh can do.
Of course people could still wear separate mesh body/head attachments if they wanted to.
But there would be less need for those if the system avatar was excellent too.

Here's my proposal from a few months ago:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-202694

[Penny Patton]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I didn't say I completely disagreed with you either.

I know, but I felt it would be good to clarify exactly what I meant.