Thoughts on the Town Hall meeting?

[StrayWanderer]

1 minute ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

Well currently it would be:

1. Basic account (No payment info)
2. Basic account (Payment info on file)
3. Payment info used
4. Premium
5. Concierge-level support?

Sure!     Now... define them.   *hides*

[Hintswen Guardian]

Just now, StrayWanderer said:

Sure!     Now... define them.   *hides*

1. Basic account (No payment info) - Any account which has never added payment info
2. Basic account (Payment info on file) - Any account which has added payment info but never used it
3. Payment info used - Any account which has made a billing transaction at some point (become premium or purchased L$)
4. Premium - Any account which has a current valid premium subscription
5. Concierge-level support? - How do you even quality for this one again?

[StrayWanderer]

YAY!   Yup.   Just don't forget to leave room for the Piggyback rides.   

one of them nice simple tables to be able to point to and say.   "See I am confusing!   But giving LL money is not confusing!"    "There is the options and all the cool stuffs!"      

[lucagrabacr]

I think basic accounts are fine as they are. I was basic for my first around 4 and a half year on SL (I started being premium around a year and some months ago, gonna be my 6th year here in a few months), and I don't think SL would be as enticing to me if as a basic member I can't rez or create a marketplace store. Those are some limitations that I think would demotivate people to join or even try SL to begin with. As the lindens have said somewhere in the video, it's not worth hurting the good people or preventing them from enjoying SL fully for the sake of further reducing the not-so-often grieving occurrences, not to mention people can totally grief you without having to rez anyway, the downsides simply won't outweigh the benefits. I'm all for improvements and more benefits for premium membership, but basic accounts are fine as they are.

Edited April 22, 2018 by lucagrabacr
Adding more details

[Chic Aeon]

5 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

If LL suggest they might remove the ability for Basic accounts to cash out they must be talking about those with PIoF.

To be clear THEY didn't say that at all. "I" was musing in the OP on how they could "lower" basic accounts (which was mentioned) and that was one thing I came up with. I know many creators that apparently cash out large sums and are not premium and do not want to be premium -- perhaps because of the lockout thing which has been mentioned.  

Taking away the folk's ability to rez would mean that ALL creators that wanted to sell to ALL people would be forced to make attachment unpackers or sell the contents from old fashioned vendors  (not possible I think if you use vendors --- I don't use vendors).  THAT would be messy. 

AND Linden Lab has the ability to connect all accounts for one user if they want to. My building alt has never been premium or purchased money and she is listed as Payment Info Used.  That happened many years ago.   

I did think that it was interesting when someone asked about charging for alts (this may have been after the official filmed version -- likely was) that Ebbe said something like they hadn't considered that (don't quote me on that but close to it). He apparently didn't know that had been the case more than a decade ago. He wasn't in SL of course but it didn't seem like they were thinking about that option again. Not sure why it was dropped - maybe because most folks just made illegal alts anyway LOL.

 

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

16 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

AND Linden Lab has the ability to connect all accounts for one user if they want to. My building alt has never been premium or purchased money and she is listed as Payment Info Used.  That happened many years ago. 

LL does have the ability to make reasonable guesses about many accounts, but they can't connect accounts unless you make it possible. You probably used identical information for your alt, or if you're old enough, you probably created an 'official' alt of your main account, which is why the two accounts are connected.

[Chic Aeon]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Demos should be available directly from the listing for which they're a demo, and multiple color/model choices really, really should be combined as options in a single listing (and cost a fortune to list separately).

It would be a real benefit to shoppers and creators alike if the number of Marketplace listings dropped by about 90%, and a listing fee combined with smarter listings could make that happen quickly.

Yes, new fees for sure. That was mentioned many times. I am not complaining as I am now saving $60 a month on land and while I cash our regularly which costs more -- for me, I am still "ahead" albeit with a smaller store than my quarter sim rental. 

I actually think that MP listing fee idea might be one of the better ideas and I am pretty sure that LL already knows about he demo and fifty listings of the same product in different colors are the biggest MP issues. Kitely has used the multiple colors all in one listing forever and it works well. I HATED doing it, but it works well for shopping for sure and shopping is getting almost impossible (also sure that they know this and it might even be reflecting in their profits).   Except for a few products that I have listed high on the relevancy parameters (niche things) I am pretty sure that most of my MP sales are from folks that have seen the product inworld and then look it UP on the Marketplace. 

Gachas DEFINITELY need to have their own separate and MANDATORY PLACEMENT area of the MP. 

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

23 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

LL does have the ability to make reasonable guesses about many accounts, but they can't connect accounts unless you make it possible. You probably used identical information for your alt, or if you're old enough, you probably created an 'official' alt of your main account, which is why the two accounts are connected.

Nope I did not use the same info or the same email address or even the same email domain.  And she was made through one of the last remaining educational portals so she has a last name.   We ARE of course on the SAME computer even though she now spends almost all her time on the beta grid where "I" never go after the inventory debacle --  LOL.  And we have extremely clean living records and have received many accolades :D.

And yes, the IP address is not foolproof. However there have been cases in the past (reportedly) where individual computers were locked out (griefers).  While LL most likely has less power than the NSA *wink* they have power. Their platform; there rules. 

I actually have some good friends who lived together for a long while and had individual computers but with the same STATIC IP (they do web work and need that for testing). To LL it certainly could look like they were the same person but they did have their own computers (several each actually and a testing server). So there can be mistakes.  The chances are low though. They of course have always been model citizens so no issues anyway.

BUT to be fair if you are sharing a computer with a griefer (say your brother for example) then it really IS your brother you should be mad at --- not The Lab --- IMHO.

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Chic Aeon

[Chase01]

6 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

I'm watching the video now, but I'd rather they focus on improving the SL experience to make a Premium account more enticing, rather than removing features Basic Accounts have enjoyed since the beginning.

100% agree Penny. It seems LL has good intentions, but as they say "the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions." They really need to tread carefully or they could potentially end up alienating a portion of their userbase. The last thing they should do is play this out like a pay-to-win scenario, where it becomes more of a requirement, rather then a benefit.

 

 

[Kurshie Muromachi]

50 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

... and I am pretty sure that LL already knows about he demo and fifty listings of the same product in different colors are the biggest MP issues.

I'm sure they know. It was definitely brought up in the Sansar product meetings for improvements. The Amazon multi-listings use case was brought up as an example.

50 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Gachas DEFINITELY need to have their own separate and MANDATORY PLACEMENT area of the MP. 

That would be so nice because I like to search for items based on actual creator listings and I end up seeing a bunch of gacha listings. Sometimes, too many. I tried using a "NOT gacha" search, but that only helps so much.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Personally, i would love to see them make only premium level and above can cash out. That would put a kibosh on the copybotters. They already watch large quantity transfers, so having an alt copybot transfer funds to a main wouldn't work. And yes, i am a merchant. No i am not premium. I have never seen the need to cash out, i prefer to help the community and buy things. 

[Chic Aeon]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Personally, i would love to see them make only premium level and above can cash out. That would put a kibosh on the copybotters. They already watch large quantity transfers, so having an alt copybot transfer funds to a main wouldn't work. And yes, i am a merchant. No i am not premium. I have never seen the need to cash out, i prefer to help the community and buy things. 

Well from the tone of the presentation (and this may include things said after the filming stopped) the current emphasis seemed to be to ENABLE more creation and the ability to own more land -=-- hence folks wanting more STUFF for said land and buying more which  would give more creators more money that they could then "share" with LL with increased fees.

That's pretty much what "I" got out of all that was said. Seems like a sane plan to me, but we all know that plans no matter how well thought out don't always work.  

I can't really agree with the idea that making it more difficult for copybotters to cash out would solve the copybotter problem. There are TONS of items in Opensim that are stolen from SL (and other platforms but mostly SL) and no one makes any money on them. A good portion of copybotters seem to do it simply because they can and not for monetary gain.  And I am not convinced that making premium mandatory for cashing out would increase CREATION which was mentioned many times during the meetings and after. 

[Penny Patton]

9 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

Payment info on file is NOT enough to allow you to cash out. Having your payment info on file gives you a L$ buy limit of US$30/24 hours (or 30 days) L$ Sell limit of US$0/24 hours (or 30 days) and US$ Process credit limit of US$0/24 hours (or 30 days). You can only cash out after your account is changed to payment info used.

 

That makes sense. When I joined SL you still had to pay $10 to create your account and I bought like $10 worth of $L to start myself off.

[Phil Deakins]

15 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Nope I did not use the same info or the same email address or even the same email domain.  And she was made through one of the last remaining educational portals so she has a last name.   We ARE of course on the SAME computer even though she now spends almost all her time on the beta grid where "I" never go after the inventory debacle --  LOL.  And we have extremely clean living records and have received many accolades :D.

Then perhaps the SL system makes a reasonable guess that you and your alt are the same person at the keyboard. What it can't do is relate 2 accounts to each other, but, as I said earlier, it can sometimes make reasonable guesses - using the computer's MAC address, perhaps coupled with a close enough IP address. But I can assure you that the system can't connect 2 accounts together with any degree of ceratinty.

My main alt was created within weeks of my main account, so it used the same computer and probably had the same IP address, or at least one that was close enough. Not that that mattered because I created it as an 'official' alt of my main account. Out of over 60 alts, it's the only one that has payment info used. More alts came later and they dont have payment info used. My computer has changed through the years so the system hasn't had the MAC to go on, although the IP addresses have always been close enough.

The system can sometimes make reasonable guesses, but that's all it can do.

[arabellajones]

I struggle to cope with long videos, especially those with minimal scripts. Few can match the qualities of a professional TV documentary as a way af, essentially, telling the story. I'll wait for something written, preferably from an official source.

I was looking around earlier, and outside blogs were talking about some sort of follow-up being produced and yeah, I know, time zones. Monday morning hasn't started yet in Battery St. But I did a bit of looking around, and you're making the ancient Spartans look garrulous.

Hmmm, am I being too laconic there?

[Phil Deakins]

7 minutes ago, arabellajones said:

[...] and you're making the ancient Spartans look garrulous.

Hmmm, am I being too laconic there?

I'd be happy to answer that for you if I knew what garrulous and laconic meant

[Heathernorton]

my guess is to the new premium tiers and features

Free account - remains unchanged with the exception of being able to cash out, Name change available at a increased price

Premium Tier 1- same as free except able to cash out and name change available at reduced fee (membership $30.00 a year)

Premium Tier 2- same as Tier 1 except all of the current benefits except land tier/linden home (membership $72.00 a year)

Premium Tier 3- same as Tier 2 but includes linden home/land tier (membership $99.00 a year)

 

don't know if any of this is even close to accurate, but common sense tells me they wont restrict free accounts that much because lots of free accounts keep the economy going

Edited April 23, 2018 by Heathernorton
typo

[Phil Deakins]

Well I hope that your guesses are way off. Specifically the Premiums 2 and 3 guesses.

My guess is that the current premium won't change, and that there will be a higher premium that has more free tier and a higher stipend - maybe 400L. And perhaps a lower one with, say, 512 tier and 150 stipend.

[So Whimsy]

Since it's come up a few times ~ Taking away the ability to rez for basic accounts is impossible.

Technically it is possible but...has nobody thought here of how many MP/inworld purchased that would break? A whole bunch of merchants (myself included) do not use an unpacker script for their boxes. The MP cannot make a distinction between whether or not a boxed product has an unpacker script in it, thus there is no way for those basic users to know if they will even be able to unpack their purchase. Same for inworld purchases, you just can't know if your product comes in a box you may or may not need to rez to unpack.

That's a pandora's box waiting to happen they simply cannot touch on a logical level.

[Heathernorton]

I truly doubt there will be much downgrading of free accounts. I sail, fly, horseback ride etc and I rent an island. Most of my friends here do similar things and none of us are a premium. member.  We may not cash out much (if at all) but we certainly cash IN. I spend about $30 USD per month, sometimes more if i do a new build, but have never really seen a reason to become a premium member. I dont need the land tier (I would prob just turn it into a rental, but bluh...) or the linden home. Any real restrictions to free accounts would devastate the rental community and that's HUGE business in SL

[Phil Deakins]

1 hour ago, Syn Anatine said:

Since it's come up a few times ~ Taking away the ability to rez for basic accounts is impossible.

Technically it is possible but...has nobody thought here of how many MP/inworld purchased that would break?

It wouldn't break any of that. It was me who put the idea forward, together with the inability to create stuff, and I did say that it would need to apply only to new Basic accounts. New ones wouldn't create anything, so they wouldn't be selling it.

[LittleMe Jewell]

55 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It wouldn't break any of that. It was me who put the idea forward, together with the inability to create stuff, and I did say that it would need to apply only to new Basic accounts. New ones wouldn't create anything, so they wouldn't be selling it.

What she means is that if a new Basic account cannot rez, then they have no way to rez their purchased boxes if those boxes don't have an auto-unpack script in them that activates upon 'wearing' the box.

And just because an account has some L$ for buying things, does not mean they have PIOF -- they could have gotten the L$ from the Realms or such.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

24 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It wouldn't break any of that. It was me who put the idea forward, together with the inability to create stuff, and I did say that it would need to apply only to new Basic accounts. New ones wouldn't create anything, so they wouldn't be selling it.

Besides needing to be able to rez a box to unpack something you've just got.... how many creators got their starts by mucking about with some prims and textures? Mine was adding a prim here and there to things other people had made. It was magic and I'm very glad there wasn't a paywall in my way because it was only after I'd accomplished my wee task that I realised how very special this mad world is.

My shop started out in much the same incremental way. I'd been making odds and sods to add to the sim my friend built and eventually had enough it made sense to set it out as a shop. That ability to explore and slowly extend my own skills and imagination has been as important in keeping me here as the ability to explore other people's. Surely this is true for many others as well.

Why put a paywall up on that? Creating is the bedrock of SL - we don't know what talent we'll lose.

[Fionalein]

Do you funny guys have any idea how many creators there are without Premium accounts? I really doubt the Lindens would try to pull that marketing desaster stunt.

[So Whimsy]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

It wouldn't break any of that. It was me who put the idea forward, together with the inability to create stuff, and I did say that it would need to apply only to new Basic accounts. New ones wouldn't create anything, so they wouldn't be selling it.

That is not what I meant at all, LittleMe Jewel explained it well and I believed that so did I in my initial post.

When was the last time you went shopping? A good 50% of merchants sell their products in boxes that you need to rez to unpack, which would be impossible if they disallowed rezzing for basic accounts. This would be nothing short of a gamble for a basic account to shop at all.