Thoughts on the Town Hall meeting?

[Phil Deakins]

1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

vs suggested 'Punishments' (e.g. 'removing' rez rights) for those who don't.

I want to make this clear. I did not suggest removing rez rights as a good idea, although, having seen what's been said about it, I wouldn't be against it if LL did it, because I don't see any negative effects of it for things that exist now. I put it forward as a possible way in which LL could "downgrade" Basic accounts. That's all.

In view of recent changes, it does appear that LL is keen on getting more income from mainland. More mainland use is what some people have been asking for and putting forward suggestions of ways to encourage it. They've done special offers on Premium accounts in recent years, and very recently they did what's been asked for - reduced the cost of tier, and increased the free tier allowance.

Making a wider difference between Basic and Premium is another way that would encourage Premium memberships and mainland ownership. But I don't see that leaving Basic as it is, and highering Premium features and facilities would be anywhere near as effective as removing features and facilities from Basic accounts - unless the higher Premium features and facilities were really high.. As it is now, a free Basic account can use all of SL, including selling in the marketplace, every bit as much as a paying Premium account, with the single exception of mainland ownership, and many Basic accounts don't want mainland ownership. They prefer to have land on private estates. The difference between free and paying accounts is much too small - almost non-existant - for a company that wants its product to make money.

According to the OP, Ebbe mentioned "the possibility of downgrading basic membership". It does make a lot of sense to widen the gap between Basic and Premium, whether by giving Premium account a lot more, or by downgrading Basic accounts.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Penny Patton]

I had just finished writing a detailed post, but apparently when you load new posts that were added as you wrote your own, the forum will sometimes, but not always, flush your post. 

I'm not going to rewrite all that. Screw it. But LL, how about we fix the forum so crap like that doesn't happen? There's a nice little improvement to make the experience better.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Penny Patton

[Penny Patton]

What I will say though is that everyone who is suggesting ways in which basic accounts can be gutted, that's entirely the wrong mindset here. I hope LL recognizes that too. When watching the town hall forum whenever a question came up asking if LL had considered nerfing this feature, or charging for this random thing that should not be charged for, I wanted to find who it was who asked that, grab  them by the shoulders, and start screaming until I lost my voice. You are not helping. You're not helping LL, you're not helping Second Life. Making Second Life less enjoyable is not a solution to anything.

There are so many problems with SL, most of them are insanely easy to fix and in doing so LL would have a much easier time drawing in new paying customers. So how about we start there before talking about how we can make SL worse?

[Phil Deakins]

@Penny Patton

The system saves what you've written, and reloads it when you click in the Reply box. Won't it do that this time?

Perhaps not, because I just found an oddity too. While I was writing the post above yours, I was informed that you'd posted a reply, and I clicked to see it. That's normal. What isn't normal is what happened after that. I finished writing my post, and posted it. Then when I clicked the Reply box to reply to you, my post was loaded into the box, even thoiugh it was already posted. So there was a glitch or two just now.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, Penny Patton said:

What I will say though is that everyone who is suggesting ways in which basic accounts can be gutted, that's entirely the wrong mindset here. I hope LL recognizes that too. When watching the town hall forum whenever a question came up asking if LL had considered nerfing this feature, or charging for this random thing that should not be charged for, I wanted to find who it was who asked that, grab  them by the shoulders, and start screaming until I lost my voice. You are not helping. You're not helping LL, you're not helping Second Life. Making Second Life less enjoyable is not a solution to anything.

There are so many problems with SL, most of them are insanely easy to fix and in doing so LL would have a much easier time drawing in new paying customers. So how about we start there before talking about how we can make SL worse?

I don't disagree with you altogether, Penny, but I do think that a bigger difference between Basic and Premium is very desirable from a Premium user's point of view. As it is now, there is next to no difference between them, which means there is next to no reason to upgrade from Basic to Premium.

[Penny Patton]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

@Penny Patton

The system saves what you've written, and reloads it when you click in the Reply box. Won't it do that this time?

It normally does that, yes. This time, maybe because your post created a new page in the thread, it did not. I don't know for sure why. The first thing I did was click in the reply box expecting my post to appear. When it did not I tried going back to the previous page in the thread and clicking the reply box. When that didn't work, I tried clicking "Reply" for the post I'd been writing my reply to. When that didn't work...I posted the above instead.

 I had been trying to address a number of points animat had brought up. Some I agreed with and some where I felt clarification was needed. A lot of people try to think of how to solve problems without addressing the source of those problems. For instance, you're not going to get 3D mobile working well for SL, or improving SL's graphics to any great extent, if you don't address the lack of optimization in SL content. There is no magic solution to get around this fundamental pillar of creating realtime 3D environments. A lot of what people want to see out of SL going forward absolutely hinges on this matter.

[Fionalein]

The problems I see with premium is the perks: 

1. Premium areas ... yeah sure, who goes there again? If I cannot share it with my friends it's useless to most
2. Premium gifts ... I get better gifts by top designers for free on my basic account...
3. Ability to hold mainland ... have you ever visited that one? There is a reason Klytyna calls it the madlands...
4. Linden homes ... now finanlly a good thing, but look a bit 2007-ish right now, don't they?
5. Weekly stipends ... to be fair they seem OK.

Oh I have a great marketing idea: how about penalizing people who do not buy into this great offer, so those who do will feel better? Sorry when I'm on the side with Klytyna here, but I sense some Premium Entitlement Syndrome...

Come on how stupid do you take us? "marketplace fees" brought forward by people who are either selling big enough to not care or those not selling at all, "Basic Account penalities" brought forward by premium owners, "higher cashout fees" brought forward mostly by people wo do not cash out.

It all boils down to "Lindens, I see you must increase your income but please look over there and don't you dare to hurt me because I'm superimportant, you know?"

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fionalein

[So Whimsy]

21 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

 I wouldn't be against it if LL did it, because I don't see any negative effects of it for things that exist now.

Phil, are you honestly serious right now? You do not see the thoroughly explained negative effects this would have on customers and merchants alike to a point where LL would be losing a crap ton of revenue? REALLY NOW?! You can't be this ignorant.

[Penny Patton]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

I don't disagree with you altogether, Penny, but I do think that a bigger difference between Basic and Premium is very desirable from a Premium user's point of view. As it is now, there is next to no difference between them, which means there is next to no reason to upgrade from Basic to Premium.

Oh, I agree with that, 100%, but how about we make Premium better before talking about how to make Basic worse? Maybe expanded profile options for Premium users? Improvements to how land ownership, particularly on the mainland, works to make that more enticing? Maybe the ability to link accounts together so you can access the inventory of one premium account from another? Maybe if someone is unhappy with the mainland sim in which they currently own land, LL could make it easy for that person to switch their land ownership to an equal sized parcel in another sim? 

Perhaps we should look into what sort of group and land features could be added which would require a Premium account to utilize?

SL is already a hard sell due to its flaws, LL shouldn't make it even more difficult to get new users onboard. Not without investigating how they can first make Second Life and Premium accounts better. Otherwise they risk putting off new users even further, with no substantial gain in income where they had hoped to see improvements.

[Phil Deakins]

3 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Phil, are you honestly serious right now? You do not see the thoroughly explained negative effects this would have on customers and merchants alike to a point where LL would be losing a crap ton of revenue? REALLY NOW?! You can't be this ignorant.

You're righht, Syn - I am not that ignorant. I haven't seen anything that suggests that stuff would be broken if Basic account couldn't rez stuff. The only thing that's been put forward is wearing stuff to unpack it. That wouldn't change one bit. So where's the problem?

Note also that I did say applying it to new accounts, not existing ones.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Fionalein]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

I haven't seen anything that suggests that stuff would be broken if Basic account couldn't rez stuff. 

I'l point one out to you: It's called: "The economy"

[So Whimsy]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

You're righht, Syn - I am not that ignorant. I haven't seen anything that suggests that stuff would be broken if Basic account couldn't rez stuff. The only thing that's been put forward is wearing stuff to unpack it. That wouldn't change one bit. So where's the problem?

Did you miss the part that you cannot always wear something to unpack it?

2030450 matching items found.

That is the amount of MP items this would break for customers because they must rez no copy items to unpack them. That number goes much, MUCH higher if you add the in world items on top of that. We're literally talking millions of broken no-copy items customers buy but cannot use because they cannot rez to unpack them.

Ergo, this screws customers, this screws merchants and this would screw SL and LL itself.

I don't know how I can make it more clear to you.

[Phil Deakins]

3 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Oh, I agree with that, 100%, but how about we make Premium better before talking about how to make Basic worse? Maybe expanded profile options for Premium users? Improvements to how land ownership, particularly on the mainland, works to make that more enticing? Maybe the ability to link accounts together so you can access the inventory of one premium account from another? Maybe if someone is unhappy with the mainland sim in which they currently own land, LL could make it easy for that person to switch their land ownership to an equal sized parcel in another sim? 

Perhaps we should look into what sort of group and land features could be added which would require a Premium account to utilize?

SL is already a hard sell due to its flaws, LL shouldn't make it even more difficult to get new users onboard. Not without investigating how they can first make Second Life and Premium accounts better. Otherwise they risk putting off new users even further, with no substantial gain in income where they had hoped to see improvements.

Yes, there are plenty of ways to improve Premium accounts to make them much more desirable, and I haven't suggested lowering basic accounts. I don't mind either way   I do think they should be much wider apart though.

[Phil Deakins]

2 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Did you miss the part that you cannot always wear something to unpack it?

Why not? What prevents wearing a no copy box that has no copy content?

[Fionalein]

4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

... and I haven't suggested lowering basic accounts.

 

8 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Note also that I did say applying it to new accounts, not existing ones.

 

34 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I want to make this clear. I did not suggest removing rez rights as a good idea, although, having seen what's been said about it, I wouldn't be against it if LL did it, because I don't see any negative effects of it for things that exist now. I put it forward as a possible way in which LL could "downgrade" Basic accounts. That's all.

... nuff said

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fionalein

[Phil Deakins]

6 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I'l point one out to you: It's called: "The economy"

Really? Please explain.

[So Whimsy]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Why not? What prevents wearing a no copy box that has no copy content?

...SL prevents you. Try it.

You can WEAR it but you cannot UNPACK it.

Auto unpacker scripts also don't work as they only move copy items to your inventory.

No copy stuff must ALWAYS be rezzed to be moved into your inventory.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Syn Anatine

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

 

 

... nuff said

And your point is?

[Fionalein]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

And your point is?

You advertise it quite a bit?

[Penny Patton]

I agree with Fionalein and Syn here

@Phil Deakins

You can attach a no-copy box, but you can't take the contents of a worn item into your inventory unless it has a script to do this. Ergo, if you removed rezzing rights from Basic accounts, you'd render a lot of the content they purchase as entirely unusable. 

In addition, there are many items, like scripted weapons, vehicles and furniture, which rely on rezzing objects. It's possible these items might wind up broken as well.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Penny Patton
i spel gude

[Drake1 Nightfire]

28 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't disagree with you altogether, Penny, but I do think that a bigger difference between Basic and Premium is very desirable from a Premium user's point of view. As it is now, there is next to no difference between them, which means there is next to no reason to upgrade from Basic to Premium.

Wait, didnt they just double the amount of land they give you? Wasn't there a whole thread about how if you were a once a year payment premium member you were essentialy paying only 12 USD for it? Doesnt this now mean they are essentially paying you to be premium? 

Stipend: 300/week = 62.40 USD/year
Land: 7usd/month   = 84.00Usd per year
freebies: ?
Total______________= 146.40 USD per year
cost_______________- 72.00 USD per year

Final cost to user__= -74.40 USD per year... 

Id say that was a fairly large benefit myself.. Which is why i will be going premium as soon as i can. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Drake1 Nightfire
fixed my maths, thanks Syn :P

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, Syn Anatine said:

...SL prevents you. Try it.

You can WEAR it but you cannot UNPACK it.

Auto unpacker scripts also don't work as they only move copy items to your inventory.

No copy stuff must ALWAYS be rezzed to be moved into your inventory.

Well, I just wore a no copy item, so that's not a problem. Once worn, the no copy conetent can be dragged into the inventory, or are you saying that it can't be dragged into the inventory? I don't have anything to test it with, but I'm sure that it can. I don't see the problem.

It doesn't matter if auto-upack scripts fail. Unpacking by hand is fine.

[Fionalein]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

Well, I just wore a no copy item, so that's not a problem. Once worn, the no copy conetent can be dragged into the inventory, or are you saying that it can't be dragged into the inventory? I don't have anything to test it with, but I'm sure that it can. I don't see the problem.

It doesn't matter if auto-upack scripts fail. Unpacking by hand is fine.

*headdesk*

PS: She was talking about BOXES not the items once freed from boxes

Edited April 24, 2018 by Fionalein

[Phil Deakins]

5 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

You advertise it quite a bit?

You don't have a point then? You prefer to just interject with nothing, right? LMAO!

[Penny Patton]

That's a good point Drake brings up. LL is making improvements. They not only increased the tier Premium accounts get, but it wasn't long ago when they increased the amount of land impact landowners get. Both of these can be seen as improvements to the Premium experience.

They can, and should, go further, but they do seem to be making real strides here and I hope that continues. Make me believe this is a new LL we're looking at!