Thoughts on the Town Hall meeting?

[Chic Aeon]

I didn't see any posts on this so decide I would start one. I attended both sessions of the town hall meetings which can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wwmcD0J8N4&t=4634s

 

I only have a few thoughts. First I think that is great to be having the meetings, a much better climate than we have seen in some reigns of CEOs. There was a fair amount of PR rhetoric which could also be absolutely truthful, but it still had that PR spin sound to it which had me not buying it as well as I would with "less" of a spin LOL.   

I can't say I learned anything really. Any revelations --  well  we had pretty much figured out by ourselves :D. Logic and business sense can tell us a lot. The only thing that perked my interest was a comment about the possibility of "downgrading" basic membership.  I really didn't see that coming. I was wondering what that could be since basic membership is -- well basic. 

The only thing that I came up with (logically in that business manner) was not letting basic members cash out to Paypal.  The only OTHER downgrade that I came up with was not letting them have a marketplace site but that would raise SO much hollering that I doubt The Lab wants to go there LOL.  My third way out there possibility would be to not let basic members into adult sims (well we KNOW that won't happen)!  I could be wrong of course but immathinkinnotsomuch. 

If anyone else has some thoughts on the program, just chime in

And for those that don't want to listen to the sessions it was mentioned that there will be some technical questions answered soon on the same "ask your question for the town hall" thread so many responded to --  so keep your eye out there. Timelines in general were very vague and seemed to be mostly in the distant future (virtually speaking where time is not quite the same). The only thing I am really waiting for is the new Windlight system. I have a project on hold (well "I" am enjoying it but it isn't public) until that is available.  

Oh, one other thing of note for merchants -- the hope is that the increase in Marketplace and cashout fees (pretty much etched in stone it seems) will be offset but a better Marketplace and more shoppers (growth came up a few times in the presentation).  

Those are MY personal highlights. 

PS -- there were questions afterwards that weren't part of the taped presentation 

 

[Phil Deakins]

Unless it's changed, basic members can't cash out, so that won't be a 'downgrade'.

It's possible to downgrade basic accounts by withdrawing support from them. I.e. you can use SL for free but you'll be on your own. Other ways that spring to mind are, removing the ability to create stuff, and removing the ability to rez stuff. We could end up with grandfathered basic accounts, where the downgraded basic account only applies to accounts created after the changes have come in.

Basic accounts that own a private sim would need to maintain the current abilities, of course, so there'd need to be 2 levels of basic account. I can't imagine that they only allow premium members to own private sims.

 

First thoughts

1. Removing the rez ability would, at a stroke, do away with most of the griefing that's done with burner acccounts. It would also do away with basic members who like to drive cars, ride bikes, fly planes, sail boats, etc., so it wouldn't be universally popular unless it's only applied to new accounts.
2.  Removing the ability to create objects wouldn't be bad. It would require a premium account to create griefing objects. But removing the rez ability would be better in dealing with griefing.
3.  Not having support for non-land-owning basic accounts seems reasonable.

 

In recent times, LL has been pushing for more premium accounts. They frequently make low-cost offers, they doubled the tier allowance, and they've announced multiple premium levels. So downgrading basic accounts seems to be a logical step towards the same aim.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[StrayWanderer]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

The only thing that perked my interest was a comment about the possibility of "downgrading" basic membership.  I really didn't see that coming. I was wondering what that could be since basic membership is -- well basic. 

Yup.  I started Listening closely when that was said.

Basic Account + Payment Information on File = Paying Customer.   The Customer that buys L$ and rents land from other Residents. 

3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Other ways that spring to mind are, removing the ability to create stuff, and removing the ability to rez stuff.

While I understand something like that as a hypothetical anti-griefer countermeasure...

For me....   I never would have considered buying L$, much less going Premium ..   If I was not able to do that from the start.    To see if I even wanted to be a Customer

7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It's possible to downgrade basic accounts by withdrawing support from them. I.e. you can use SL for free but you'll be on your own.

Maybe.   But again.    Basic Account + Payment Information on File = Paying Customer.   The Customer that buys L$ and rents land from other Residents. 

So might have to draw a distinction there.  

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, StrayWanderer said:

Maybe.   But again.    Basic Account + Payment Information on File = Paying Customer.   The Customer that buys L$ and rents land from other Residents. 

So might have to draw a distinction there.  

I can't disagree with that. I hadn't thought of it. I was only thinking of basic accounts without any payment info on file, and basics who own land. So replace my 'basics who own land' with your 'basics with PIOF', and we concur - at least on first thoughts

 

[StrayWanderer]

My thinking about the removing abilities of just Basic-Basic (non PIOF) account to rez and create has a coupla reasons:

1. SL is just awkward, confusing, and weird.   But ..  I Likes it enough to be Premium.    But ..... awkward, confusing, and weird.   So a Basic-Basic is a test drive.   It may be a two - three month long test drive, even.   But.... if they turn into a person that says  "TAKE MAI MONEY!"    is a good thing.
2. A User may be a Basic PIOF, and decide the want an alt for Stuff and Things.  ( but not griefer Stuff and Things).   So they buy the L$ on one and handoff to the Other.    Now.... sure makes sense to ask, "Why No Make It PIOF too?".   But I dunno?   I'm weird, maybe they are too?   But that is still a Customer saying "TAKE MAI MONEY!"  

When It comes to a basic that is just a Roleplay Alt that never graduated to PIOF...    to me they are still a VERY GOOD THING, and this is the why they are a important part of the ecosystem. 

Non-land Holding Basic Accounts are a big value added to a Sim.   It may be a multiple region Roleplay Sim.  Which means.... Someone wants to give LL a whole Lotta Money each month,  because Basic-Basic's are there and chatting visitors up.   And ya kinda want them to be Basic-Basic, not off renting houses and stuff.   Ya want them adding value and providing 'AWESOME FUNTASTIC UN-SCRIPTED' fun on a big spenders sprawling multi region place.     

[Phil Deakins]

26 minutes ago, StrayWanderer said:

A User may be a Basic PIOF, and decide the want an alt for Stuff and Things.  ( but not griefer Stuff and Things).   So they buy the L$ on one and handoff to the Other.    Now.... sure makes sense to ask, "Why No Make It PIOF too?".   But I dunno?   I'm weird, maybe they are too?   But that is still a Customer saying "TAKE MAI MONEY!"  

When It comes to a basic that is just a Roleplay Alt that never graduated to PIOF...    to me they are still a VERY GOOD THING, and this is the why they are a important part of the ecosystem. 

That bit is easy   I have over 60 alts, but only one of them is linked to my main account. That's because I created it when LL charged US$10 to create an alt account, so it was linked to my main's account right from its creation. As such, it automatically had PIOF - Payment Info Used in its profile - even though I never provided any payment info for it. So linking alts to the main account used to be done, and can be done again.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[StrayWanderer]

Another part that was mentioned in the town hall was .....  fixes to what happens when payment lapses regarding Premium Accounts

Of course the first reply was a rhetorical "Provide what we sell for free?"      To which I'ma reply...   "Nuuuuuu!   Don't be silly!"

But..   Yup!   Autodowngrade v/s the current method of a locked account.    That would be another VERY GOOD THING!

Now I do have to ramble on adding a coupla thoughts to that.   In regard to Land currently owned by an account in arrears. 

 I don't know what happens to private islands in the case of an account in arrears.   Ima just assume it is locked then taken off-line or something...   but that is a whole other ballgame.

When it comes to Premium's...   is mainland.   And... this might get tricky   

If payment lapses on a Premium Account:  

1. After 24 hours automatic downgrade the Premium to Basic
2. If any of the Land held is Linden Home,  after 24 hours autoreturn all the stuff 
3. if land is Regular mainland, Auto banline everyone and lock the land, but don't wipe it .... yet.    Provide a grace period to get payment info squared away.   Do this to prevent a buncha "Warrgh! Mai land got resold out from under me b/c I was in hospital getting Rabies Shots (or something)"
4. But....   you only get one grace period fix-it for free,  after that....   

• charge landowners that keep going in to arrears some real money to not get their mainland sold out from under them  - maybe a sliding scale dependent on the amount of land.  
• Or just say 'Neener Neener.. buy it back at auction'

[Phil Deakins]

From what I've gathered, LL already operates a very lax grace period. It takes months of arrears before any action is taken, so I don't think your initial 24 hours will go down very well

[StrayWanderer]

15 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

From what I've gathered, LL already operates a very lax grace period. It takes months of arrears before any action is taken, so I don't think your initial 24 hours will go down very well

KK.. Ya dunno?  From the standpoint of the customer researching the 'Do I go Premium Question'?     All I had to go on was some posts,  possibly made by very dramatic people that can't work a credit card,  but they all said ...  with variations of leet speak  "U R Locked out!  No FAIR!  Boo Hoo!'    

I can see why if LL makes a habit of working with customers in arrears, they don't wanna be super specific...   is smart to avoid people taking advantage of that.

The why I mentioned a seeming super strict deadline.    A deadline however harsh is better than silence from the people that I wanna give money to.  As I said earlier, Ima weird.  I read fine print..  kinda, mostly.. okay...  well I do skim it!     

 

And not knocking the replies a few people gave on blogs, etc.  that were actually reasoned explanations of what happens if you do go into arrears..  is just y'all the needles hiding in a VERY big haystack

Edited April 22, 2018 by StrayWanderer

[Penny Patton]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Unless it's changed, basic members can't cash out, so that won't be a 'downgrade'.

Just to be clear, you're talking about Basic accounts without PIoF, right? Because I was cashing out from a Basic account with PIoF for years.

 

[StrayWanderer]

34 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

.....linked to my main's account right from its creation. As such, it automatically had PIOF - Payment Info Used, in fact in its profile, even though I never provided any payment info for it. So linking alts to the main account used to be done, and can be done again....

Yup.   But as a anti-griefer measure, spoofable.    Ima thinking that LL might need to figure out a fast lane way to have governance sweep and clean particle and rez cube trash. 

Just consider users from other places in the world where it is harder to get a credit card, not impossible to arrange legit payment.. but harder.

So can ...  look at it like this maybe.    The more a Basic-Basic can do, the more likely they get all  ... "HERE TAKE MY MONEY!"    So if it is place that is harder to arrange the payment means, they are more motivated. 

Of course... no PIOF on file means no Cash Out,  b/c where would the Money go.   

Edited April 22, 2018 by StrayWanderer

[Phil Deakins]

6 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Just to be clear, you're talking about Basic accounts without PIoF, right? Because I was cashing out from a Basic account with PIoF for years.

I didn't know there was a difference. What you said does make sense though.

[StrayWanderer]

 

11 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Just to be clear, you're talking about Basic accounts without PIoF, right? Because I was cashing out from a Basic account with PIoF for years.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I didn't know there was a difference. What you said does make sense though.

Yup!  YAY!  Nomenclature!  *slams head against screen, gets yelled at by that screen's owner,  sits at own PC*

Proposal: 

1. Basic-Basic
2. Basic PIOF
3. Premium

Not neenering y'all.   Neenering the SL documentation

Edited April 22, 2018 by StrayWanderer

[Penny Patton]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

I didn't know there was a difference. What you said does make sense though.

I'm not sure LL makes a distinction, except that you need Payment Info on File to cash out (otherwise, where would the money go?) and to set your account as "Adult" (at least that used to be the case, but LL has changed their policy on that several times since I had to bother with it). If LL suggest they might remove the ability for Basic accounts to cash out they must be talking about those with PIoF.

I'm watching the video now, but I'd rather they focus on improving the SL experience to make a Premium account more enticing, rather than removing features Basic Accounts have enjoyed since the beginning.

[Phil Deakins]

Yep. My only experience of it was many years ago when a 'basic' friend couldn't cash out. I always assumed it was because she was basic and never considered that it might simply be because she didn't have piof.

[Phil Deakins]

5 minutes ago, StrayWanderer said:

Proposal: 

1. Basic-Basic
2. Basic PIOF
3. Multiple Premium levels

FIFY

They have announced that more than one premium level will be coming in.

[StrayWanderer]

1 minute ago, Penny Patton said:

....I'm watching the video now, but I'd rather they focus on improving the SL experience to make a Premium account more enticing, rather than removing features Basic Accounts have enjoyed since the beginning....

Improve the whole SL Experence!  Noobs!  Fresh Noobs!   If ya catch them early,  you can train them.   

[StrayWanderer]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

FIFY

They have announced that more than one premium level will be coming in.

I want SUPER-DUPER Premium!   Piggyback rides.   No more having to press my own up arrow to walk.   

Even SUPER-DUPER-DUPER Premium!   Can hang on to Oz's Mustache so I won't fall off when getting my Piggyback ride.    

 

But I REALLY don't want a big price hike for what I have now.    Like Really Really...  like seriously Really.

But I might pay more for a bigger stipend,  pay more for more tier bundled with the premium.    All easier ways to pay LL directly on a yearly recurring basis.   

Some may even wanna pay less just have a stipend and no tier bundled.  But not me!   

[Penny Patton]

1 minute ago, StrayWanderer said:

Improve the whole SL Experence!  Noobs!  Fresh Noobs!   If ya catch them early,  you can train them.   

You're not wrong! SL is a very unpolished experience. So many tools are unintuitive, poorly designed or broken altogether.

The lack of content optimization, and the poor use SL makes of hardware, means SL is a very laggy, low-FPS experience for everyone. Even people on super high end computers are not getting the experience they ought to be getting with the hardware they're throwing at SL's problems. LL needs to fix that by giving content creators better tools and guidelines, consumers better tools to make educated purchasing decisions, and making improvements under the hood in how SL uses our hardware.

 The new user and public (that is to say Linden/Mole) environments should be better designed, better optimized, and act as a showcase of what's possible. People should be impressed the first time they log in, not put off.

 And there's so much more LL could improve, I'm not going to get into all of it right here. But the good news is that LL does seem to be moving in that direction. They've already announced features and improvements are coming that SL has needed for years. So that's promising. I'm still in a "wait and see" mindset, but we could actually see the kind of improvements to the SL experience that it desperately needs to start drawing people in in greater numbers.

[Qie Niangao]

In addition to hinting about downgrading "basic basic" there were a lot of hints that other fees will be rising.

I came away with the impression that the new pricing plan will charge more for the current Premium benefits. I don't know how they'll slice it; I could see them making a (much) lower cost plan for Mainland ownership only, but they run the risk of "unbundling" the subscription to the point none of it makes sense on its own. I mean, there wouldn't be a market at the current full Premium fee for not-quite-break-even stipends, a few more groups, and an occasional junky no-mod "gift".

Aside from Premium, I certainly heard there will be other increases and new fees. What I'd love to see is a Marketplace listing fee, combined with more tools for collapsing related items into single structured listings.

Admittedly, I'm not sure how to make that work for gacha reselling, which is a problem that needs solving. They clutter up Marketplace more than anything else now, and probably need a whole separate search space -- although ticking the Copy perm box filters out most of the crap.

Demos should be available directly from the listing for which they're a demo, and multiple color/model choices really, really should be combined as options in a single listing (and cost a fortune to list separately).

It would be a real benefit to shoppers and creators alike if the number of Marketplace listings dropped by about 90%, and a listing fee combined with smarter listings could make that happen quickly.

[Jae Villa]

1 hour ago, StrayWanderer said:

I want SUPER-DUPER Premium!   Piggyback rides.   No more having to press my own up arrow to walk.   

Super-duper premium: getting piggyback rides 

Basic-basic: giving piggyback rides to super-duper premium members. 

I think we've solved this!

In all seriousness though.. I think the idea of a basic-basic is a bad one. Instead let's have a few premium levels (Bronze, Silver, Gold etc.) with improvements and privileges to match. Keep Second Life fun for free players and make it even better for those of us who invest more time and money in it. 

[StrayWanderer]

40 minutes ago, Jae Villa said:

... In all seriousness though.. I think the idea of a basic-basic is a bad one....

Maybe Just clarifying... But that is what we already have.   Basic-Basic is you when ya first sign up.   The Basic-Basic 'life'  is what made ya decide to give money to LL for More Stuff and things. 

They can't buy L$ and can't cash out L$.   Governance may in some cases have to do some Fraud investigations if a Lot of L$ go thru a Basic-Basic Account in a short time?   So maybe a cap on the total amount of L$ per period of time?

But A hypothetical reduction in the in World / using  / playing with the platform options for Basic-Basic could be a VERY BAD THING.    Remember we are used to using the platform, we are involved in the platform... 

Eeep! A horrifying worst case scenario. Try explaining to someone - and add in a language barrier  - "No you can not use that car someone gave you (no rez rights for Basic-Basic), or No you can not wear a pretty thing someone gave you (too much avatar complexity) .. unless you pay more (to LL)".  

 

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

.... I came away with the impression that the new pricing plan will charge more for the current Premium benefits...

Ya.. maybe.    Hope not.    Because pretty much anyway that gets sliced is ...  tier goes back up.    My thinking is that the $72 USD/year is the 1024m2 mostly,  b/c you kinda roughly equate that to how much you would pay to rent that many LI from another resident for a year.    Not negating the other things with Premium,   but I'ma also assuming that most are gonna spend that stipend on 'Stuff and Things', even if can in theory squirrel it all away to cash back out.    

But I do see a logic to a cheaper than the current premium option with no tier in the bundle, for the folks that don't ever wanna deal with mainland .. or *gasp*... think a Linden Home is all Icky.    Is a ...  Here is your stipend and you can have 60 shopping groups and get first access to buy more things and LL can auto-bill your credit card. 

Maybe have with a Premium Plus for the store owner types.    Pay a larger set fee to cut down on per transaction costs.

[Hintswen Guardian]

4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Unless it's changed, basic members can't cash out, so that won't be a 'downgrade'.

They can currently cash out as long as they have at some point made a billing transaction (became premium or purchased L$ at some point)

4 hours ago, StrayWanderer said:

Basic Account + Payment Information on File = Paying Customer.

Actually LL does not seem to consider this as a paying customer until they use that payment info to actually make a purchase.

2 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

I'm not sure LL makes a distinction, except that you need Payment Info on File to cash out

Payment info on file is NOT enough to allow you to cash out. Having your payment info on file gives you a L$ buy limit of US$30/24 hours (or 30 days) L$ Sell limit of US$0/24 hours (or 30 days) and US$ Process credit limit of US$0/24 hours (or 30 days). You can only cash out after your account is changed to payment info used.

 

[StrayWanderer]

19 minutes ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

They can currently cash out as long as they have at some point made a billing transaction (became premium or purchased L$ at some point)

Actually LL does not seem to consider this as a paying customer until they use that payment info to actually make a purchase.

Payment info on file is NOT enough to allow you to cash out. Having your payment info on file gives you a L$ buy limit of US$30/24 hours (or 30 days) L$ Sell limit of US$0/24 hours (or 30 days) and US$ Process credit limit of US$0/24 hours (or 30 days). You can only cash out after your account is changed to payment info used.

 

Then ... AHA!    *tacks on more words*  Mostly just clarifying that a Valid PIOF would be like payment info used. 

Whatever names used, just do it and make nice table to explain it.   So we can all be on the same page, and make it MUCH easier to explain to Potential new residents.

So can avoid the   ....    "I wanted to give you money, but now I am super confused, and I seem to have developed a eyebrow twitch"           

1. Basic-Basic (no verified PIOF)
2. Basic (verified PIOF)
3. Premium  (verified PIOF)
4. More Flavors of Premium   (verified PIOF)
5. Even More Flavors of Premium   (verified PIOF)
6. SUPER-DUPER PREMIUM   (verified PIOF)    &  Piggyback rides!

-- I might not have waited so long to make a Premium me and be all "Take Mai Money"   "YAY! I have HOUSE!", but had to get that eyebrow tic seen about.

Edited April 22, 2018 by StrayWanderer
hit enter too soon

[Hintswen Guardian]

Just now, StrayWanderer said:

Then ... AHA!    *tacks on more words*  Mostly just clarifying that a Valid PIOF would be like payment info used. 

Whatever names used, just do it and make nice table to explain it.   So we can all be on the same page, and make it MUCH easier to explain to Potential new residents.

So can avoid the   ....    "I wanted to give you money, but now I am super confused, and I seem to have developed a eyebrow twitch"           

1. Basic-Basic (no verified PIOF)
2. Basic (verified PIOF)
3. Premium  (verified PIOF)
4. More Flavors of Premium   (verified PIOF)
5. Even More Flavors of Premium   (verified PIOF)
6. SUPER-DUPER PREMIUM   (verified PIOF)    &  Piggyback rides!

Well currently it would be:

1. Basic account (No payment info)
2. Basic account (Payment info on file)
3. Payment info used
4. Premium
5. Concierge-level support?