Should SL be cleaned up- based on last login date?

[Orwar]

22 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Merchants simply forget to clean up their clutter, because there is no need to do so.

   Well, what would be a good incentive to remind them? Periodical fees for MP listings? 

   As long as the user is around and/or people are buying their stuff, there's not really any algorithmic solution to determine what is 'waste' and what is 'good stuff'. 

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, BillFletcher said:

So they need to fix search not remove the old items. it is to LL advantage if these old items sell. Lindens that go to abandoned accounts don't get cashed in for real dollars. 

I don't know how many, but I do know of at least a couple of accounts that have been passed to heirs, and those heirs are able to cash out from the account. Unfortunately, since the heirs are not the creators, they typically aren't in a position to actually provide customer service. I don't think this should impact deciding if the products should remain or not. As long as a product is SELLING it should be allowed to remain.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

Products that haven't sold even one time in two years should be unlisted too, even if the merchant/creator logs in on a regular basis. 

It should be left to the discretion of the merchant, otherwise you've just turned SL into a dictatorship. No, thank you.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

I was one of two principle builders for a full region club/hangout. I built about 1/3rd of the islands build, my co-builder did about half, we worked as a team, she'd rez rocks, and mesh beach sections wiith surf, I' teraform the LL dirt to blend in with the mesh pieces, and plant shrubbery, and add decking, stairs, etc.

 

She's been gone from SL for a couple of years now., under thiis foolish suggestion, EVERYTHING she rezzed on the island would be deleted, destroying the entire build, 3 months work for two of us would have to be redone from scratch, by me, with new materials purchased at considerable expense. 

 

It wouldn't happen, the place would be finished.

 

Would destroying this hangout  "make SL better", no. Would it  "clean old low quality stuff off the MP", no, would it "make MP search easier to use", HELL NO..

What would it do, close down a hangout, anoy all the regulars, cause people to leave SL in diisgust. reduce concurrency, and LL's revenue.

 

Legalised Griefing With Intent to Destroy SecondLife.

[ValKalAstra]

5 hours ago, Orwar said:

   I think the MP clean-up routine they have sounds quite reasonable. There's a whole lot of old junk still but either people must be buying it or the merchant is still kicking around - in which case it's their prerogative to have stuff on the MP.

   In-world .. Well as long as the land is being paid for, why should it be treated any differently?

Aye. If it still sells or the merchant is still around? There's in my opinion no reason to yank it. Sure there might be some ancient, half broken mess in there but sometimes there's some charm in that. Also I have seen people buy said mess and dance with joy over their purchase. I didn't quite understand it but heck, joy is infectious so let them have it! I've had my fair share of fun in going into obviously old builds and almost looking at it like a virtual archeologist. What could this have been? Which weird religions must this have been made for?

Personally, I'll toss a coin to the witcher coder that implements a better way for users to find what they want. Both in world and on the marketplace and let's just say the latest marketplace changes aren't it. I've gone from a frequent marketplace enjoyer to someone that looks at it, groans under a flood of gacha that refuse to be filtered and heads back out.

 

[Persephone Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

It has nothing to do with kicking out competition, but with cleaning up the enormous pile waist on the marketplace.

Merchants simply forget to clean up their clutter, because there is no need to do so.
A few of my currently listed products never sold even one time.  One simply can't predict what will be a success and what not.
There is no need whatsoever for a merchant to clean up their clutter at the moment. That makes an awful lot of unwanted unpopular junk on the marketplace (mine included), that makes search harder than needed.

A good idea IMHO could also be asking a listing fee for a product after a certain period of no sales:
If a product doesn't sell at all in one year/two years it gets automatic unlisted then. The merchant gets an automated notice that it is possible to l activate that product again by paying a listing fee for the next period.
If a product is still selling, it stays on the marketplace for free, until it no longer sells for the agreed period.

 

Good ideas here.

Perhaps LL should change the way they make money from MP listings? As it stands now, they make no money from listings for items that don't sell. Further, these listings cost nothing to the merchant, so they can keep them up indefinitely.

Imagine the inworld corollary of a gacha resale market where people rent stalls. They pay for their prim usage whether the items sell or not. They don't pay more when they make more money. They don't get a free space if they sell nothing.

The SLMP could use a similar price structure to what eBay uses. Charge a listing fee, rather than taking a cut from each sale. Maybe give merchants a choice between a monthly fee or an annual fee, but collect something for the space their items are taking on a shared market space.

- As for deleting inworld items, as long as people are paying for their parcel, they have a right to rez whatever they like on it, within the TOS and community guidelines. If people don't like seeing old prim and sculpt builds, derender them or move.

[Rowan Amore]

34 minutes ago, BillFletcher said:

LL collects money when lindens are purchased. If they never get cashed out the Lab gets to keep that money. It is better to keep the whole thing than get a percentage.

Get to keep what money?  I'm sort of confused as to what you are saying.  Almost all Ls purchased and sold are to and from other residents.  LL gets a percentage either way.  If they Ls just sit there, they aren't making a percentage of anything. 

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Mine doesn't, but then again, I'm smart enough to NEVER use "relevance" as a search option. I always use "Newest First". Try it, you might like it.

They really ought to make newest first the default for MP, IMO.  

[Qie Niangao]

18 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Perhaps LL should change the way they make money from MP listings? As it stands now, they make no money from listings for items that don't sell. Further, these listings cost nothing to the merchant, so they can keep them up indefinitely.

Yeah, I'm coming around to the view that there should be two Marketplace catalogs,

1. one that's "active", costs some nominal amount to maintain a listing, with something like the newly imposed activity requirements, and
2. another that's almost archival: can still buy from them and the listings are eternal but it requires a separate search to access them so they aren't cluttering up the "active" results and buyers kinda know to "beware".

Now, to the finances of dormant L$ accounts:

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

LL collects fees on the sale of Ls AND the cash out process.  Ls stuck in an abandoned account are of no advantage to anyone.  

42 minutes ago, BillFletcher said:

LL collects money when lindens are purchased. If they never get cashed out the Lab gets to keep that money. It is better to keep the whole thing than get a percentage.

I think it's kinda both and kinda neither. L$s stuck in a dormant account are the same as if they'd gone into one of the other L$ "sinks" like upload fees and Marketplace commissions and everything else the Lab charges in L$s: they're out of circulation. And that benefits the Lab not because it's money they get to keep but rather because it's game currency they'll be able to sell to replace when demand can't be satisfied by resident-to-resident sales on the LindeX and the L$ gets so dear the Lab's standing sell orders kick in to maintain a stable exchange rate.

The Lab doesn't do accounting on those dormant L$s, nor does it directly convert L$ upload fees into US$s to pay salaries, etc., but it does all come out in the wash LindeX.

[BillFletcher]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Get to keep what money?  I'm sort of confused as to what you are saying.  Almost all Ls purchased and sold are to and from other residents.  LL gets a percentage either way.  If they Ls just sit there, they aren't making a percentage of anything. 

The Lab never creates Lindens? Lindens for which they receive dollars directly, It seems like they would at least need to replace the Lindens lost to circulation by being stuck in abandoned or lost accounts. Even if all they do is replace those lindens, they would still be making more than just a percentage.

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Orwar said:

   Well, what would be a good incentive to remind them? Periodical fees for MP listings? 

   As long as the user is around and/or people are buying their stuff, there's not really any algorithmic solution to determine what is 'waste' and what is 'good stuff'. 

Periodical fees for non selling products over a longer period. Would really be a good way to deal with clutter on the market place

As an example email from the Lab:

"We noticed that your product (insert name here) hasn't sold since (insert date one year ago). Therefor we have deactivated said product automatically on the marketplace, according the marketplace guidelines in place ince (date here).
If you want to continue this product on the marketplace despite it's bad performance,  please use the link below to pay (amount here) listing fee for the next 12 months. If you don't undertake action before (date here a few months from now), the above mentioned product will only be available for automatic re-deliveries, when that option was activated in your above mentioned listing".

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

12 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Should regular logins be required to keep content active in SL on the marketplace and in-world?

If someone hasn't logged in for months or years, should their stuff still be on sale despite being abandonware? How about returning items to their inventory from in-world?

Yes but no.

Yes in theory - there's a lot of abandoned junk out there, especially inworld when you hit the really old regions that are where lifetime accounts last logged in back in 2006...

But how do you make the call fairly? What if someone had a pile of freebie kits that folks are still using because they're still good?

I would have an easier time if the call was to "delete accounts that have nothing inworld, nothing for sale, and haven't been used in over a decade - freeing those names up again."
- Even though my alt that now owns my treehouse was exactly this until I recently reclaimed it, not having used that name in a decade (that was a task remembering the old password) and having done nothing with the account... in fairness someone should have been able to take the name from me.

Now... anything that's actually "in use" in SL still, is a lot harder to justify getting rid of. But even saying this makes things complicated - if an old build is sitting there since 2006 with it's owner not having logged in since then - is it unused or something the neighbors have an expectation of seeing / visiting / etc.

 

This all gets insanely complicated once you get into the weeds of how to decide fairly.

 

[Bree Giffen]

I think regular logins should be ONE thing to look at if LL were to consider cleaning up the marketplace and in-world. Maybe other measurements to check if an item is linked to some kind of activity in SL. I have an alt with items on the marketplace but I regularly log in with them. I myself log in irregularly as Bree but often as other alts that have no marketplace links. 

Maybe a feedback button on the Marketplace? If someone does a search for items and feels that a certain item found is out of date or too old then they could click a button to identify a possible item to remove. LL could check these identified items and remove them if they are indeed too old. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Charge a listing fee, rather than taking a cut from each sale. Maybe give merchants a choice between a monthly fee or an annual fee,

Congratulations, you have just abolished the "free demo", from now on all demos will cost 100 ls, to cover listing fees, this also applies to all "freebies", "dollarbies", "gifts" and "promos".

 

What was it I said in another thread...

Oh yes...

Why do Oldbies constantly complain about [ some non issue ] and then come up with ways to destroy the platform by driving people away in droves.

 

[WereBeast Alpha]

some people probably don't have time to login everyday with real life stuff and some creators decide to take breaks from burnout or other issues. I know imvu has a policy that you must login once a month to be able to buy in world currency and other upgrades. life happens and people can't be online due to  health or other issues. 

[Paul Hexem]

13 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Congratulations, you have just abolished the "free demo", from now on all demos will cost 100 ls, to cover listing fees, this also applies to all "freebies", "dollarbies", "gifts" and "promos".

Shouldn't be hard to exempt a demo that's linked to a listing that already paid a listing fee.

Freebies and gifts can have links to their in-world locations if you don't want to pay to cover the listing fee.

[Orwar]

16 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Maybe a feedback button on the Marketplace? If someone does a search for items and feels that a certain item found is out of date or too old then they could click a button to identify a possible item to remove. LL could check these identified items and remove them if they are indeed too old. 

   Yeah, because user-driven 'quality checks' don't pretty much always get abused terribly. Just look at any competitive game that has some sort of vote-to-kick function.

   Feel like a competitor is bad for business? Gather a mob and drive their stuff off the MP! 

[Paul Hexem]

25 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Maybe a feedback button on the Marketplace? If someone does a search for items and feels that a certain item found is out of date or too old then they could click a button to identify a possible item to remove. LL could check these identified items and remove them if they are indeed too old. 

Besides what @Orwar said, Linden Lab already doesn't keep up with the current MP listing violations. They'd never keep up with an additional one.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Persephone Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Congratulations, you have just abolished the "free demo", from now on all demos will cost 100 ls, to cover listing fees, this also applies to all "freebies", "dollarbies", "gifts" and "promos".

What was it I said in another thread...

Oh yes...

Why do Oldbies constantly complain about [ some non issue ] and then come up with ways to destroy the platform by driving people away in droves.

I'm not complaining about a non-problem. I'm suggesting an alternate fee structure. The lab could have a separate category for Demos or for Demos and Freebies. No fee for free items. A small listing fee for items under $L 500. A higher fee for more expensive items.

How much old "junk" on MP is good for business? How much makes it too hard for people to find current items?

Do you have any suggestions for cleaning up MP listings?

(This thread is getting off-topic, but the OP was ridiculous anyway, imo.)

[Orwar]

3 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

How much old "junk" on MP is good for business?

   With the current system, things supposedly get delisted if no one buys them and the creator isn't around - either someone is still buying that 'junk' or the creators are still in SL. I think those qualifications seem reasonable.

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, WereBeast Alpha said:

some people probably don't have time to login everyday with real life stuff and some creators decide to take breaks from burnout or other issues. I know imvu has a policy that you must login once a month to be able to buy in world currency and other upgrades. life happens and people can't be online due to  health or other issues. 

If once a year or so log in is too much to ask from a merchant, why would LL keep bothering to host their non selling stuff on the marketplace? There is nothing against treating merchants a bit commercially IMHO. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Sold items in peoples personal inventory will stay no matter what of course.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Rahadin]

I did make this suggestion:

 

[Flea Yatsenko]

Deleting in world stuff owned by people who haven't logged in in a long time makes no sense. Someone is paying for that land and they are keeping it there for a reason. Unless I'm mistaken there's no way to have free land in SL that could be abandoned for years. You have to constantly be paying for it. If someone is paying for a sim and it's filled with stuff from someone who did leave SL, they have the ability to return that stuff if they don't want it anymore. So that's not really a problem. I don't think any inactive in world stuff is a problem because someone is paying to keep it around and they have the ability to make it go away with a few mouse clicks. I don't understand why people are getting so heated about this. I have an in world store, if I decided to leave SL forever and just abandon my store as it, the sim owner would return all my stuff and rent it to someone else. Two cases of people who left SL with in world stuff I can think of and none of it is a problem. If someone is the sole land owner and they leave and stop paying, how long do you honestly think that land is going to stay in the state they left it? Old in world stuff isn't a problem, at all. Because having to pay for in monthly ensures whoever has in world stuff is active enough to pay for it.

However, SLMP is a mess and this horse has been beaten to death. But I'm gonna share another angle since the only people who really complain are merchants.

It's not fair to customers who buy things from people who aren't active merchants anymore. Customers have no way of knowing from a marketplace listing if a merchant is active or not. People are gonna feel a lot better about buying things if they know they'll get answers. Merchants have a lot to lose from all these outdated listings but customers have a lot to lose too. But no one ever stands up for the fact they basically get ripped off buying some outdated product because of the listing and how SLMP works. All they can do is leave a review. Who here hasn't bought something off SLMP because it looked good in the pictures, realized it was outdated, then went to the profile of the creator and see they've left SL? It's happened to me more than I want to admit. Do you think the average new user or casual SL user knows what mesh, PBR, etc is? Or do you think they just buy by pictures? This old content is hurting customers, especially new users who are buying old outdated stuff and don't know any better.

Imagine knowing nothing about SL other than it's some game you found online or a friend told you to play. So you set up your stuff to buy L$, spend some real life money on L$, then go buy some random old stuff from the first page of search results. You honestly think keeping around a bunch of old stuff on SLMP is worth putting new users through that?

SLMP is LL's chance to show a new user the exciting and cool content SL has. We all know SL's content is ridiculous in scope and quality compared to other virtual worlds. Right now it's completely failing to do its job. And the MAU is shrinking. It's not hard to understand.

If reddit was filled with old posts from 2010 and people started freaking out because they thought about removing old stuff or burying it in an archive or something, no one would be using it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Rahadin said:

I did make this suggestion:

 

I've been wanting LL to add an upload date to the MP for years. I just don't understand why they never thought of it themselves.

[Arielle Popstar]

Personally I don't mind the older content, supported or not, as there been a few times I have found interesting and unique items that haven't been replicated by anyone. So when I spot it on someone, I like being able to simply track it down with the MP link from one of the inventory scanning apps. If I have seen someone wearing it and it looks good on them, I'm not too worried that it might be a problem. 

In any case this would be a non issue if search worked better so it would better differentiate between new and older content. Also if the creator is no longer around, these purchases become a Linden $ sink because those funds will never be cashed out saving the Lab monies. That older content has to be resulting in them saving a large amount on their accounts payable. It was surprising they were making noises about removing some of that older content a few months ago, making me wonder why this thread because afaik this is already in the works for content that hasn't been purchased in a few years.