A Suggestion on Improving Mainland

[Dyna Mole]

Hi gang!

Thank you for staying pretty close to the thread topic. Please remember also to keep the tone of discussion civil.  If you have a personal disagreement with another poster, take it off line.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

I think S.S. Galaxy's current location off Bellisseria's west coast is not the ideal or perfect one, but is one of necessity to keep the entire ship preserved and in the public conciousness. I'd rather have it there, than nowhere at all. However, I don't like the location where Galaxy is now. I like to imagine the location is a temporary one until something more suitable should ever appear.

The ship, to me at least, is still a marvel of early SL prim creativity and passion, being three SL regions long and built from 30,000 prims. Galaxy has strangely been placed in Bellisseria for a while now, out on the outer fringes of SL.

Bellisseria is not mainland and is a sprawl of cookie cutter themed residential areas. Areas in which no-one sails their permanently docked boats, they don't drive road vehicles around a huge, empty unused network of Bellisseria roads, they don't buy things from local inworld Bellisseria shops (because there aren't any), they don't build things in local community sandboxes (there aren't any, and besides, they buy their things directly from Marketplace instead).

Ideally, Galaxy should have remained in the Blake Sea, to be enjoyed and used by SL's most passionate boat communities. Perhaps automated ferry boat rides from Hollywood Airport or other nearby major landmarks could have brought in more tourism traffic to the Galaxy?

Or perhaps Galaxy should have been returned to it's original place of construction in the Sagittarian Sea  (I actually have the exact co-ordinates!), way up north on the SL grid for "decommissioned ship" preservation reasons, becoming a permanant museum ship visited by those who still remember and care, by those who are nostalgic having served aboard it, or "cruised" on it during it's service lifetime.

LL, as Galaxy's new owners, probably chose for the Galaxy's move to Bellisseria to give the area a community area and a tourist attraction. However, I think this idea has largely failed, as the ship continues to be mostly forgotton about and is rarely visited, even by those who now live right next door to it in Bellisseria. Go and examine the visitor traffic details for yourself.

I feel Galaxy may be a completely unknown thing by most "new" SL arrivals.  Some in nearby Bellisseria may not even know the ship actually exists just offshore, out of their sightlines from their limited draw distances...

Edited June 14, 2023 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Ardy Lay]

19 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

S.S. Galaxy

I think it would be a fun New User Experience.

[Ineffable Mote]

SS Galaxy was in its prime when it was located on Bill Stirling's Sagittarian estate regions. When it moved closer to Blake it was basically a rescue, but then later on when it got preserved by LL it became a dead museum piece and never really recovered from that. As mentioned above the move to Belli didn't help, and I'd say it has more to do with lack of community involvement and activity than its location.

Builds are easy-ish to move but foundations don't carry over, and essentially wind up getting stripped out(due to various reasons and not going into that here). Preservation doesn't really feel like the right term for it, and I don't see a fix as most SL'ers are just here for the passive entertainment. (it's my understanding that SS Galaxy is open to the user base to host events in and such, these community spaces are offered across Belli but not made much use of so it's not just the ship itself at issue)

 

*I'll add that I still kind of miss the monorail there, connecting it to land with the home/shared apartment rentals etc and could take it back and forth to events or friends' cabin rentals. The whole place felt like a community and neighborhood both in ways that haven't especially been replicated in SL since. Experiences like that are few and far between with a lot of filler offered, which has little to do with mainland either so ..

much of it does tie back to the userbase as a whole needing improvements, functionally

 

**I'll also add that there were others besides Bill involved obviously but the names escape me; credit is due and not just for the actual build itself, truly

Edited June 13, 2023 by Ineffable Mote

[animats]

16 hours ago, animats said:

Anyway, that's why the trees in Frostar look so bad. It's a bug in the tree data.

Discussed at Server User Group today. Created BUG-233997 at suggestion of Simon Linden.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Thinking about it, one way to improve mainland is just to not allow land cutting. Certain mainland sims are already set up like this. It would be easy to change permissions on all the sims given enough time.

That would also solve the problem of new micro parcels and new ad farming too.

😁

 

 

[Sparkle Bunny]

4 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

LL, as Galaxy's new owners, probably chose for the Galaxy's move to Bellisseria to give the area a community area and a tourist attraction. However, I think this idea has largely failed, as the ship continues to be mostly forgotton about and is rarely visited, even by those who now live right next door to it in Bellisseria. Go and examine the visitor traffic details for yourself.

 

I've sailed across to it from Bellisseria a couple of times; it doesn't work as a community area precisely because it's a museum piece completely out of keeping with the shiny new mesh everywhere else on the continent(s). But it needed water around it and so did Bellisseria, therefore the two got smooshed together.

I kind of like what Drivers of SL have been doing on their recent drives, where they direct you to some janky mainland shop or cafe and then TP you to a nicer-looking version somewhere else. That could be a possibility for infohubs and other Linden properties. Ride the rollercoaster at Hairy Hippo Fun Land and then go through a portal that takes you to Merrymount. Or vice versa.

[Aethelwine]

Originally I was unhappy about the SS Galaxy move, it broke up the route between Honah Lee and Sailor's 'cove South without forewarning to the estate owners who took a few months to replace it. I suppose what happened behind the scenes impossible to be sure of, but the perception was it was done without thought or consultation with the estate owners.

That said it is moved now and where it was are now rentals, moving it back is not an option. Where it is is fine it still fulfills a function as a place of interest and can be used as a venue. The first time I visited it was for a friend's wedding, it is nice it can still perform that function. But it's primary function is as a place of interest, people don't need to be visiting it daily to be a success in that regard. So long as it remains somewhere you might want to travel past or show to someone, then it is doing fine.

Like the Bremner dinosaurs it is a wonder of prim building. Meshifying it would remove part of its charm. 

Mesh and materials are great, but let's not get carried away or we lose our history.

[Gabriele Graves]

Was anyone was suggesting that old builds should be meshified though?  I haven't seen it but could be wrong.  I certainly wasn't when I talked about copying the builds to a preserve.  To clarify if necessary, my suggestion was to completely remodel those areas with some thing else made of mesh.  Anything else would be pointless.

[Marianne Little]

New Mainland with a few rules, and let old Mailand be just as it is, would be the best solution.

That would please most people, even if it is not possible to please all. 

The thing that worries me, is money. Every time a new region is created, it cost LL money to run it. And we are LL customers, it is our money that keep SL open. Do I want to pay more fees and subscription to add a new Mainland, while there are vast areas of abandoned Mainland? No, I would not.

"New regions have to pay for themselves". I think it was said in a thread where people asked for more, sailable, water regions.

I can imagine LL will make pretty land, like a Bellisseria without houses, but only for those who will pay Premium Plus. An alternative to Linden homes, this would be Linden parcels.

The abandoned Mainland is just sitting there, and will continue to do so, because no one wants it.

I think new improved textures could bring back interest in Mailand, mabe even more people would buy land.

What would it cost LL to give Mainland new textures? I haven't the frigging idea how this world work technically.

How much time would it take, how much would LL pay people to change textures? It is some people with real tech knowledge here, not just a casual shopping resident like me. Perhaps @animatscould make a guess?

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Marianne Little

[Gabriele Graves]

I think that there are a lot of assumptions there that I suspect don't hold true.  Do we actually know what percentage of Mainland is simply abandoned?  Is it possible to find out?  That would atleast give a perspective on the scale of the problem.

The assumption that abandoned Mainland is laying around simply because it isn't wanted may also not be true.  It could be due to the tier structure and not being able to afford the next level to acquire more land.   RL circumstances changing or simply buying other Mainland they liked more.  All of those are much different reasons with much different things that could be done.

I have strong doubts that a land texture change will make any kind of difference to the amount of resident owned Mainland.  The only complaints I've ever read/heard was about the granite textured Mainland and they could just swap that out with the existing grass/sand textures.  I would suspect almost everyone would be happier even though it still would likely have little impact.

It seems to me that "like Bellisseria but with empty plots" is just a variation on a theme.  Perhaps it would be better to petition LL to make that an actual new Bellisseria theme.

One of the things I read about in another topic (Privacy Screens) was an account of someone trying to block a dwelling (Spaceship) that was actually part of the theme (Horizons) and the person giving the account was describing what they had to do to block it out and was actually building what looked like a very out-of-theme house and garden.

That's obviously OK in Horizons.  That kind of thing is likely going to cause issues though in a "Like Belli (ie. themed and covenanted) but with empty plot" type place though.  Perhaps this is why Belli doesn't have those types of places and perhaps that is also why an "almost Belli-like Mainland 2.0" is a bad idea.  An empty plot in a themed region might suggest more freedom to some than it ought so what would the rules actually have to be to create harmony?

Edited June 14, 2023 by Gabriele Graves
more corrrections

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

A few pages back, I mentioned that I would love to see LL complete the unfinished continents.

Back in 2021, after I informed @4lice Cerise about missing Gaeta continents that were never built, 4lice carefully mapped out all these hidden Gaeta regions to reveal this!

You can find these yourself using the official SL map website and clicking the spaces to find them!

There would have been three additional Gaeta continents, Gaeta II, III and IV! They would have been positioned to the east of Gaeta I and to the north of Gaeta V. And now you know why Gaeta V was named Gaeta V and not as "Gaeta II"!

Using this data, I then drew an imaginary map of "missing" coastline to reveal what possible shape Gaeta I should/might have been. 

 

Then, using 4lice's data again, I drew three additional maps to reveal the unbuilt Gaeta II, Gaeta III and Gaeta IV and their possible imaginary coastline shapes.

I am not asking LL to build these three unbuilt continents, I think these additional Gaeta continents are no longer required.  But they are an interesting "What If?" possibility in SL's history. 

But interesting maps aren't they?  I didn't bother with imagining interior mountains, lakes, rivers or islands. At the time I drew them,  I was more interested in the maximum extent of their possible coastlines.

With hindsight, I now realise I should have created more inland water areas too, as vast open plains are unattractive to most people, as seen in the existing continents with similar sized expanses of interior land which are barren and unused.

But I do still think that LL should complete Gaeta I and connect it to the other mainland continents with a channel of water regions.

Perhaps use S.S. Galaxy and her three sim regions as part of this water connection to exploit the traffic and lessen the costs?  Hmm...! 💡

Edited June 14, 2023 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Qie Niangao]

The problem with proposing a Mainland 2.0 is that it's already done. That's Bellisseria. Maybe that's not what we mean by a "new Mainland" but there's every reason to suppose that's what the Lab believes it's achieved. Instead, they have different problems: too much underused, financially underperforming simulation capacity, specifically in existing Mainland and the original Linden Homes continents. (In fact, some Bellisseria themes show some of the same problem, but I don't know how serious it really is.)

Now having some cushion of spare capacity is good, especially if there are prospects of a sudden spike in demand (e.g, mobile). But that's really only useful if that demand could ever apply to the existing inventory. It's hard to imagine enough demand that homeless newbies will wash ashore on the old Linden Homes continents rather than even the ticky-tackiest private islands.

Personally, I think those are two different problems, subject to different solutions. Mainland is just too big and wild to try to impose a new covenant. There's not enough Governance to begin to enforce it, and if there were, it would cut revenue too much as proud low-hanging skybox owners and hair-trigger orb snipers leave in a huff. On Mainland, the only practical solutions are technical: make it easier and more effective to curate the experience of visitors to Mainland parcels. Change llTeleportHome() to quietly do llEjectFromLand() instead on all Linden estates, and make that an option for other Estates, too. Consider any other purely technical approximations to Bellisseria civility that won't unduly rile the natives.

The original Linden Homes regions might make a good testbed for potential next-generation Land products. Because they'll only empty at region level, not continent-wide, tests will have limited scope, but invite some Land team and Marketing people to an off-site with a whiteboard and a microdose each, see what comes up. Worst case it could prove wildly popular and cannibalize beloved Bellisseria.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Qie Niangao
llEjectFromLand, not -FromParcel

[Aethelwine]

Following on from that thought .  changing the way banlines work so they work like a wall you bounce off or edit out of without breaking vehicle scripts would make travel easier, and investing in road and river parcels more appealing.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Aethelwine

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The problem with proposing a Mainland 2.0 is that it's already done. That's Bellisseria

..not if you can't rez your own houses and builds!  In that respect, "Bellisseria" is not really different than old "Linden Homes" land (just nicer homes and a new Covenant) - and completely different than any other "mainland".

Personally, I consider Bellisseria to just be more "Linden Premium Homes" land.  You cannot choose "buy" a parcel to do with what you want.

Maybe I misunderstand your point?

10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Personally, I think those are two different problems, subject to different solutions. Mainland is just too big and wild to try to impose a new covenant.

This is why I attempted to suggest a "new AREA" of Mainland with a new Covenant.  New area = smaller area to enforce a covenant as users fill it up = only need to enforce for NEW not go back and try to enforce for all the OLD.

 

12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The original Linden Homes regions might make a good testbed for potential next-generation Land products.

Except, as in my first statements above - you can't rez your own builds, etc.  

Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I think we are just talking about two different things.

 

[Aethelwine]

If they were to add in a new mainland area then perhaps they could use it to link Gaeta to Corsica and the rest of the grid, maybe, even finish off the East side of it. If they were inclined to test the impact of a new covenant then Gaeta might be a good option, it has been isolated and has traditionally had lowest occupancy rate.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

@Patch Linden, @Derrick Linden, @Quartz Mole

Please consider moving the S.S. Galaxy to here! 

The S.S. Galaxy and it's three sim regions could form part of a new water channel between two continents, much like the ANWR Prim Rig does between Sansara and Heterocera continents. 

The traffic generated from a water link between Gaeta I and Corsica would be much greater than that found at the Galaxy's current location in Bellisseria.  And Galaxy could be used as a midway rest stop and boat rez zone between continents by sailors. Galaxy would also be much nearer to the Blake Sea than where it currently is.

Ten new water regions would have to be created (instead of 13) by LL to create a water link between Gaeta I and Corsica continents for the first time! Maybe some other existing rescued regions could be used to fill in those other ten?  And if moved, S.S. Galaxy would be located far enough offshore to not disturb the views from Corsica and Gaeta I residents.

In a way, putting Galaxy there would make it act like a real cruise ship or passenger liner, allowing people from one continent to move to another...

Edited June 14, 2023 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Persephone Emerald]

As an alternative to new mainland with a Bellisseria-like covenant, what do folks think of in-theme commercial shop regions being part of Bellisseria?  

These could be town squares - or a market area in Sakura or the Log Homes . Premium users could opt to take a 512 m shop instead of or in addition to a home. 1024 m parcels with a shop on the ground floor and an appartment above it are another option. Allow vendors of course, but don't allow any breedables.

I see these regions as a kind of test case for new mainland with Bellisseria-like themes and covenants, but without the high cost investment of creating a whole new kind of mainland.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Coffee Pancake]

Here's a way to improve mainland ... 

Probably the only way to improve mainland in any way that actually counts, putting people and occupancy first.

 

Pick a continent, any continent, and close it.

 

Do a Zindra move for people to get land on the remaining mainland. 

No one will like it. There will be screaming. Some will walk away. Which is all fine.

We get significantly higher occupancy of the mainland that remains, we're no longer paying for vast swathes of dead land sitting on servers that have to be kept up and online 24/7 (which might be enough to stave off fee increases), the remaining mainland gets a massive injection of life.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

  I think we are just talking about two different things.

Yeah, probably because I got long-winded.

I was trying to channel what I think is Lab's current perception of the Land product. It's not that Belli-style land ownership is what Mainland needs, not at all, but I do think Lab's appetite for new Land offerings is sated by Bellisseria, especially if "new" would entail adding more than a tiny handful of new regions, and even that would require a tremendously compelling business case. 

Rather, they must surely feel pressure to get better return from the existing Mainland.

It just seems difficult to experiment with the few full Mainland regions that vacate occasionally, but the Linden Home regions might be handy for such testing. If so, I wouldn't expect those tests to have the same Region constraints as Linden Homes. The point of the experimentation would be to find something for existing (non-Linden Home) Mainland, at least as regions open up.

If I were at that whiteboard, the parcels would certainly be able to be bought and sold, with some prim bonus. Maybe only simple, low Land Impact infrastructure builds (in contrast to Horizons, Bay City, etc). Probably every parcel needs some protected sides to obviate screens, so no join/split. Maybe some regions get permanent open access settings with only blacklist bans; don't like it, pick a different region.

But then I didn't get that microdose so maybe something more innovative would deserve a test.

 

[Extrude Ragu]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

... Pick a continent, any continent, and close it.

...

We get significantly higher occupancy of the mainland that remains ...

I don't think the existing mainland has high abandonment due to a lack of players, just a lack of necessary modernization work or attempt to meet the expectations of a new generation of SL users.

Whilst I agree with you that it's true that condensing the mainland would likely result in higher occupancy, the effect I think would be temporary as the people who are willing to put up with the Mainland today are oldbies who have standards and expectations of yesteryear vs a new generation of SL players who are coming in from more modern gaming experience. Oldbies won't be around forever, people don't live forever and people move on.

My sentiment on the matter is to avoid managed decline, but also don't just throw away the old mainland for new either. We just need to piece by piece improve the existing mainland. Yeah it's going to take some work on LL's part, but nothing worth doing was ever easy.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, probably because I got long-winded.

I was trying to channel what I think is Lab's current perception of the Land product. It's not that Belli-style land ownership is what Mainland needs, not at all, but I do think Lab's appetite for new Land offerings is sated by Bellisseria, especially if "new" would entail adding more than a tiny handful of new regions, and even that would require a tremendously compelling business case. 

Rather, they must surely feel pressure to get better return from the existing Mainland.

It just seems difficult to experiment with the few full Mainland regions that vacate occasionally, but the Linden Home regions might be handy for such testing. If so, I wouldn't expect those tests to have the same Region constraints as Linden Homes. The point of the experimentation would be to find something for existing (non-Linden Home) Mainland, at least as regions open up.

If I were at that whiteboard, the parcels would certainly be able to be bought and sold, with some prim bonus. Maybe only simple, low Land Impact infrastructure builds (in contrast to Horizons, Bay City, etc). Probably every parcel needs some protected sides to obviate screens, so no join/split. Maybe some regions get permanent open access settings with only blacklist bans; don't like it, pick a different region.

But then I didn't get that microdose so maybe something more innovative would deserve a test.

 

If we think vacating Legacy Linden Homes is hard, I bet that vacating legacy Mainland is even harder!

Luckily for LL, nothing in the TOS probably guarantees anything about land you "buy", so if LL gets over any "technical" challenges, they (LL) can probably vacate and swizzle-stick mainland all they want. What I mean is, move parcels for people who are "still around", while deleting parcels for people who are "nope, they ain't coming back".  (Like they could with Legacy Linden Homes but probably won't, opting instead for another solution as we've read about.)  

I guess my point is, LL is going to do something about legacy Premium Homes.  While the solution there may be sub-optimal, it means they may be able to do something for legacy Mainland. 

And my unspoken point is:  If LL solves the "unused/underutilized" Land issue in general, it opens up the possibility of "creating new land" like they did with the Belli continent.  I just think we really need "real mainland" not just cookie-cutter doll houses (sorry).

Not that they couldn't "create new land" anyway.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

^ I'm neutral. I'm neither a Bellident or a mainlander. (I used to be a mainlander, but moved to an island!)

I only care about exploration, coastlines, inter-continental travel and continent connectivity. 😜

Edited June 14, 2023 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 Otherwise, STFU.

Oh put a cork in it already. Also, maybe think twice about telling me what to think about paying for Mainland ownership, as if I don't own enough to deserve an opinion.

[ZigZag007]

Here is a idea when you get a bell home you get a content pack . so why don't linden make a content pack for mainland  things like a platform for hill land so you can place your home on .. that may stop a few large rock or prims some nice trees plants and so on see what lindens come up with there ideas some good textures well it could help make a start