Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, Teresa Firelight said:

 

What I will say is that either someone is very bad at math .....

looks to me that the ones paying in L$ are going to pay half of the reduced costs for them.
These rates are not 250/1

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

8 minutes ago, Juan Marques said:

looks to me that the ones paying in L$ are going to pay half of the reduced costs for them.
These rates are not 250/1

 

More like 275L/USD

[BJoyful]

2 hours ago, chesse Vyceratops said:

By item creators moving to other metaverses i meant more like VR Chat and Roblox, Like VRChat where people are selling premade unity avatars for 30+ dollars or sell commissioned ones for hundreds or for roblox where ROBLOX takes a like 70% fee of your clothing sales but you can still make thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars becuase theres so many users.

I’ve not heard of those metaverses so I must not be in their target market demographic and have no kids.  If they pay people who used to Create for Second Life, then I’d assume Second Life has done a great job in providing a start for their endeavours venturing into the limitless virtual world(s).  There will never be just 1 metaverse or it would swallow its own tail, I think?

[Love Zhaoying]

If costs are going up, more motivation to shut down the mostly-empty legacy mainland (2nd Gen?) Premium homes. And fix stuff to help retention. 

I should start a positive thread about ideas for user retention! Oh, wait..

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

When was the last time any Second Life fees / prices / tier fees went UP - besides any "cashing-out" fees pre-or-post Tilia? This new L$ purchasing transaction fee may be the first increase that affects "everyone" (because it includes "L$ purchasing fee" increases) in quite a long time. 

I got crickets on this question. No surprise!

 

[Natacha Haroldsen]

10 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Taxes and VAT are only charged on fiat currency (USD) transactions. 

sorry this is not pretty clear to me. If I have a homestead, decide to pay in Lindens, for me there is then no USD transaction, therefore it stays in-world and therefore no VAT applicable. Is my understanding correct?

 

if so that would be a game changer for some heavy taxed countries (like Europeans ones for example, mine is 21%).

 

Thanks for any clarification.

[steeljane42]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I got crickets on this question. No surprise!

About 2 years ago buy fee went up from 5% to 7.5%. I don't believe tier ever went up in the 10+ years I'm in SL.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Natacha Haroldsen said:

sorry this is not pretty clear to me. If I have a homestead, decide to pay in Lindens, for me there is then no USD transaction, therefore it stays in-world and therefore no VAT applicable. Is my understanding correct?

 

if so that would be a game changer for some heavy taxed countries (like Europeans ones for example, mine is 21%).

 

Thanks for any clarification.

Great catch! If I understand correctly, this may mean users in VAT countries will pay a lot less than before, if they pay for a full Region with the new L$ payment method?

[Alwin Alcott]

28 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Great catch! If I understand correctly, this may mean users in VAT countries will pay a lot less than before, if they pay for a full Region with the new L$ payment method?

10 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Taxes and VAT are only charged on fiat currency (USD) transactions. 

i think so yes...  BUT .. as the conversion for LL isnt 250/1 but 275/1 everybody will pay 25/1 L$/USD more in L$ for the maintenance fee... so it's now paid by really everyone   .. residents fund resident rebate ... ( they'r not nuts) 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Ana Yates]

43 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i think so yes...  BUT .. as the conversion for LL isnt 250/1 but 275/1 everybody will pay 25/1 L$/USD more in L$ for the maintenance fee... so it's now paid by really everyone   .. residents fund resident rebate ... ( they'r not nuts) 

But when I pay VAT for example, doesn't it get paid out by LL to my country? It's not like they keep it. So in this case, yes residents are paying more, but it's not to cover the VAT if others. I really hope LL answer the maths question soon. They've said right there that it's a fixed 250 rate. 

[Natacha Haroldsen]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Great catch! If I understand correctly, this may mean users in VAT countries will pay a lot less than before, if they pay for a full Region with the new L$ payment method?

Seems like it… also you cant pay tax for an inworld transaction in Linden, as far as my knowledge goes…. So I will be please they clarify it. But yeah Europeans  and high taxes countries will surely then come to own some land if same fees as they rent.

 

renting for me cost 20usd less per month…. Gladely now I managed to get gf homestead and then price is closer to the ones you can rent… because VAT of 21%

[BJoyful]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i think so yes...  BUT .. as the conversion for LL isnt 250/1 but 275/1 everybody will pay 25/1 L$/USD more in L$ for the maintenance fee... so it's now paid by really everyone   .. residents fund resident rebate ... ( they'r not nuts) 

I would guess that as the value of the L$ fluctuates, that LL must charge the fee based on the exchange rate at the time of the transaction… same as buying or selling?  If not, that would seem terribly unfair to everyone!

Edited March 7, 2023 by BJoyful
Grammar

[Spiffy Voxel]

Speaking personally, this solidifies my resolve to cap my monthly expenditure on Second Life. That will mean focussing on rental payments first, with anything else set aside for supporting artists and regions, and only buying new things when the price is right and I'll actually use it.

I'm fully aware that this isn't what many creators want to hear. Still, the blunt fact is that after cutting down on subscriptions and services IRL, Second Life is probably my most considerable discretionary expense most months. I love this place, but the amount of money I was throwing into it through L$ purchase was getting out of control. Something has to give, and that 'something' is in-world retail therapy.

[Qie Niangao]

7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Actually, yes.  In the last year, all cloud based service.prices have increased after being low for several years.  Rising energy prices for Amazon, Google, etc who power those clouds and uncertainty about geopolitical unrest, especially in Taiwan, mean prices go up down the line.  Oz even said at the beginning, it ended up costing them more than they thought it would.  I'm certain the price has gone up and not down from there.

The rates have increased. I'd sure hope the Lab has reduced their cloud costs, though, by improving efficiency compared to wherever they landed after migration. (Of course there's no telling what they'd projected for costs when they approved the cloud project, so I guess they may still be underwater for all we know.)

Personally, this whole announcement affects me absolutely nil. I neither sell nor buy L$s and I'm on the Mainland so meh, and I wonder how much of the SL economy is similarly unaffected. Presumably, most posters to this thread will be the ones most affected, but how much of the economy really is affected much or at all?

Regardless, the Lab is clearly expressing strategy here, if we can somehow discern the subtleties. Broad brush, it seems the general direction they've been trying to follow in the decade or so since James Wagner Au (and others) convinced them that sustainable revenue sources must shift from "land" to content fees; I don't see much chance of that direction changing any time soon. I suppose targeting exchange fees indirectly claims a share of in-world content sales that don't pay Marketplace commissions.

(FWIW, I dread the fact that content fees may discourage new creators, specifically. If it costs a little more to haul out the bushels of money fetched by market-approved avatar heads and bodies, for example, well… like I said, I hope new creators won't be discouraged.)

Meanwhile, my already absurdly overpriced Apple TV+ subscription is going up by 50% in April.

[Charolotte Caxton]

11 hours ago, Quistess Alpha said:

The more I think about this, the more it seems like "trickle down economics" or, "tax the poor and give to the oh so benevolent rich".

As has been pointed out above, it's still infeasible to own a full region unless you're a land baron or representative of an active community. L$ "taxes" will effect the cost of everything, and an increased cash out fee is going to lead to L$ price inflation.

Omg, please forgive me, you specifically and everyone else reading this in particular and the moderators. I just have to say, with all due respect, as a region owner I have to disagree with this in the friendliest way I can imagine.

It is not infeasible. 

[Rick Nightingale]

18 minutes ago, Charolotte Caxton said:

Omg, please forgive me, you specifically and everyone else reading this in particular and the moderators. I just have to say, with all due respect, as a region owner I have to disagree with this in the friendliest way I can imagine.

It is not infeasible. 

While the statement you are responding to might go a bit far, the vast majaority of people in SL simply cannot afford or justify the ridiculous cost of a region. I would love one, I really would... but I simply can't. Despite working all my life I've never been in a position to pay that. I don't even have a TV subscription or a license (UK - need to pay the government for a license to watch TV)

This change benefits the minority, like you (and I'm glad you can afford a region) while taking away from the rest of us to pay for it, if we take the announcement at its word.

If, as @Spiffy Voxelsays, people spend less because of this, it will hit small creators like me (and big ones too), so I'm being hit twice. LL are taking more off me when I have to renew my subscriptions, and I'll be earning less to pay for it. At the moment SL pays for itself (lucky me) but only just. I cannot afford to put money in any more.

I'm also thinking the same about spending less in SL myself though; exactly along the same lines as Spiffy's. That will hurt other creators.

If LL push it to the point that I cannot pay for what I need in SL to enjoy it the way I want, then I'll remove my store and leave. I'm not here just to socialise, which is free, I'm here for the stuff that needs paying for.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Charolotte Caxton]

8 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

While the statement you are responding to might go a bit far, the vast majaority of people in SL simply cannot afford or justify the ridiculous cost of a region. I would love one, I really would... but I simply can't.

This change benefits the minority, like you (and I'm glad you can afford a region) while taking away from the rest of us to pay for it, if we take the announcement at its word.

If, as @Spiffy Voxelsays, people spend less because of this, it will hit small creators like me (and big ones too), so I'm being hit twice. LL are taking more off me when I have to renew my subscriptions, and I'll be earning less to pay for it. At the moment SL pays for itself (lucky me) but only just. I cannot afford to put money in any more.

I'm also thinking the same about spending less in SL myself though; exactly along the same lines as Spiffy's. That will hurt other creators.

If LL push it to the point that I cannot pay for what I need in SL to enjoy it the way I want, then I'll remove my store and leave. I'm not here just to socialise, which is free, I'm here for the stuff that needs paying for.

 

Thank you for respectfully replying to me and I in no way am trying to take away that lower costs would be beneficial, my only disagreement was that it was said at these prices it is not possible, when it is. Thank you for your kindness.

[adriannesuz McMinnar]

I'm no land baron nor do I want to be.  Just a small potatoes creator. I accepted years ago that any small amount I cash out every so often will always be minuscule compared to the endless hours of effort and care I put into everything I create, but it does sting that now that amount will be even less. A decrease in land prices for land barons helps me not, thank you very much.  I would have much preferred giving LL extra money in the form of an a la carte option to premium that would motivate me to create more, not less.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by adriannesuz McMinnar

[Elvina Ewing]

would it be possible to create a Marketplace where we could sell/buy SL items for US$, instead of L$? To cut out the middleman, so to speak.

[Chic Aeon]

11 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I have a thought about WHY they are using in-world payments for this. As my thought is only half-formulated, I'll hold off until it is coalesced or I see someone else chime in with a similar thought.

The obvious answer (to me anyway) is to get folks into Premium Plus membership.  The many folks that opted into PP when it was NEW in order to get a 2048 Belli house which was supposed to arrive in the Fall have NOT been happy (another thread).   So if those houses are still on the drawing board they will have plenty of people going back down to Premium. They need something to entice a different group of the populous.  Right now there isn't really much reason to opt into PP since those much wanted Belli houses haven't appeared.

 

The REAL entity that this is helping is Tilia --- think on that :D.   

[VeeTach Littlething]

I don't see where this benefits anyone except the land barons, who will now make more money.  I will never be able to to afford a full region.  I can't even afford a homestead!  Sorry, but my money will go toward some important things, like my r/l house mortgage and food!!!

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, Ana Yates said:

But when I pay VAT for example, doesn't it get paid out by LL to my country? It's not like they keep it. So in this case, yes residents are paying more, but it's not to cover the VAT if others. I really hope LL answer the maths question soon. They've said right there that it's a fixed 250 rate. 

it doesn't cover VAT, but it does cover costs , and that's what residents feel.
 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, BJoyful said:

I would guess that as the value of the L$ fluctuates, that LL must charge the fee based on the exchange rate at the time of the transaction… same as buying or selling?  If not, that would seem terribly unfair to everyone!

why do they need to calculate the exchange fees for? Themself? thats really weird.
So it's no perk or progress at all .. only keeping money out of hands for being taxable? ( IF they manage to fool the IRS with it, as soon you can really pay services with tokens it aren't tokens anymore!) 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Alwin Alcott

[Susanna Valeska]

Those of you paying $250 a year for PP, a $20 decrease in full region tier equals $240 a year, so you're breaking even.  In that case, homestead prices should be decreased by $10/month, equaling what you pay for regular premium.  Oh wait, but you need a PP to buy a homestead now so...that just made homesteads MORE expensive.  Still no houses to go with PP after over a year.  I don't need a gazillion groups.  This is no deal.  Sorry.

[Zarin Magic]

20 minutes ago, VeeTach Littlething said:

I don't see where this benefits anyone except the land barons, who will now make more money. 

Why more money?Land barons at the end will have to decrease price  20 usd/sim for all they renters ...so less money😉