Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[chesse Vyceratops]

Other metaverses have the equvialnt of free land and unlimited prim usage , lowering the price of land from 220 dollars to 200 dollars or whatever isn't going to encourage people to produce in-world experiences or games or whatever, its just going to make land owners spend slightly less while more and more virtual item creators move to different metaverses becuase of fee increases

Edited March 6, 2023 by chesse Vyceratops

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

No one likes fee increases, but if an extra 2.5% increase makes the difference between "buying and burning" and not buying anything, then perhaps buying and burhing L$ wasn't such a good idea in the first place. It's 2.5$ extra per 100$. And in my opinion if someone has spare 100$ to spend at entertainment stuff, such as games, SL and so on, then extra 2.5$ won't make a difference for them. If they don't, which is understandable especially in the recent years with everything that's going on in the world, then they already had a way better use for those 100$.

It is the principle of the service fees and the potential of reaching that tipping point where one says enough is enough. At the new double digit buying fee, it will certainly have an impact personally of whether I purchase more, regardless of the ability to do so comfortably.

[Quistess Alpha]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Q: How much land can I pay for in L$? How do I pay for Land in L$?
A:  You can pay for up to one private region (some restrictions apply) in L$ as long as you maintain a Premium Plus subscription.

Taking both together, I'd have to presume it's ~exactly one region then. Although, since case-by-case support is involved to set it up anyway, anyone wishing to use it can always ask for specifics.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Taking both together, I'd have to presume it's ~exactly one region then. Although, since case-by-case support is involved to set it up anyway, anyone wishing to use it can always ask for specifics.

Makes sense.

Private Regions only, so you can't use it on less than a Region - otherwise you're renting not owning. 1 Private Region max benefit per account. 

Idea: Each Alt can own their "own Region". Transfer funds to each Alt to pay for it. (There's no fee to transfer L$ to another user, Alt or not.)

[Tech Robonaught]

So - basically one or two people man the offices now at LL - takes 85 times calling to get a human on the phone, and then you have to go thru billing, or you just get redirected to the website and hung up on and now on top of it 5% of the money I earn goes right back into LL's pocket, PLUS the percentage to ship the money off to Paypal or Skrill. 

 I'll tell you whos getting the shaft here, the creators, the go getters, thats who.

 

[Quistess Alpha]

5 minutes ago, Tech Robonaught said:

5% of the money I earn goes right back into LL's pocket,

vs 2.5% before I believe. but you're not seeing the full picture. If that's all it was, you could just raise all your prices by 2.5% and, assuming equal demand, you'd break even.

But you can't assume equal demand, because the price for people to buy the L$ that they're paying you has gone up, meaning L$ is "more valuable" to them because they paid more for it, and in a nice neat and pretty world, you might expect a 5% decrease in sales, on top of the decreased sales from increasing your prices*.

*probably a bit more nuanced because percentages, math and economics are hard.

[Love Zhaoying]

38 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

This program is launching on March 6, 2023, and is planned to run for at least six months until September 6, 2023.

This is a surprise, the initial announcement made it sound like a permanent change. I suppose unless there are few who take advantage of it, there's not much reason to discontinue it. Unless it turns out to cost LL more in lost L$ fees than expected.

 

[EliseAnne85]

19 minutes ago, Tech Robonaught said:

So - basically one or two people man the offices now at LL - takes 85 times calling to get a human on the phone, and then you have to go thru billing, or you just get redirected to the website and hung up on and now on top of it 5% of the money I earn goes right back into LL's pocket, PLUS the percentage to ship the money off to Paypal or Skrill. 

 I'll tell you whos getting the shaft here, the creators, the go getters, thats who.

 

LL are "the boss".   It happens like that in real life, too.  Perks taken away from workers, etc.  It sucks but it happens almost all the time in the real world.  We go up the ladder, then back down.  

The whole fee doesn't effect me much.  I love lindens to spend from the things I make.  I only cashed out once my entire SL and it was an under $100.00 cash out.  I'm a little Mom & Pop, non-corporate type seller so I want my lindens to spend in the virtual world.  

But, I just wanted to say, happens in the real world, too.

Edited March 6, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Quistess Alpha]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Unless it turns out to cost LL more in lost L$ fees than expected.

if you read the details in the page linked from the main article further, note that there's a specific region where users have to go to pay an in-world kiosk with their L$. I highly doubt that's scalable.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

vs 2.5% before I believe. but you're not seeing the full picture. If that's all it was, you could just raise all your prices by 2.5% and, assuming equal demand, you'd break even.

But you can't assume equal demand, because the price for people to buy the L$ that they're paying you has gone up, meaning L$ is "more valuable" to them because they paid more for it, and in a nice neat and pretty world, you might expect a 5% decrease in sales, on top of the decreased sales from increasing your prices*.

*probably a bit more nuanced because percentages, math and economics are hard.

Indeed. This is why this sort of tinkering with the SL economy is so dangerous: just as with a RL economy, it's an incredibly complicated system, and adjustments to one part tend to ripple out into others. It will be interesting to see, for instance, how this impacts on the Linden exchange rate, as well as on rentals (which will in turn impact land barons), etc.

I am sure that LL is aware how complex this all is. I am less certain that they have a clear or trustworthy model of what those impacts are likely to be.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Quistess Alpha said:

if you read the details in the page linked from the main article further, note that there's a specific region where users have to go to pay an in-world kiosk with their L$. I highly doubt that's scalable.

Truly bizarre! Both that they "buried the lede" and that it's so specific. I guess that's cheaper than say, modifying a website that everyone uses. Definitely makes it a challenge..requires you to be "in-world" to pay, etc. I bet you 1L$ the kiosk will be powered by Casper-v..I mean, LindenVend!

[Artorius Constantine]

I was having a bad day and it just got worse. Raising the buy and sell fees will really hurt the economy. For buyers and sellers. Very bad idea.

SL is my ONLY job. My only source of income and it's already a stretch to pay all the fees and keep enough to live on.

You keep raising the fees and giving nothing for the extra charges.

I will probably have to sell my land to eliminate tier, then I can drop premium and just rent a much smaller place as a little showroom with a few rezzers to make up for these extra fees and the drop in sales from others who won't buy as many Lindens to spend in world, due to those increased fees.

Then people won't be able to see all my products in world and my sales will drop even more. Great.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

math and economics are hard.

Yay! A fellow "math-is-singular" person!!

[Quistess Alpha]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I bet you 1L$ the kiosk will be powered by Casper-v..I mean, LindenVend!

/me pays you 1L$

The screenshot of the 'how to pay' tutorial shows the name of the object being paid as "Casperlet rental kiosk v1.0" although that doesn't imply anything about the scripts inside.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Quistess Alpha said:

/me pays you 1L$

The screenshot of the 'how to pay' tutorial shows the name of the object being paid as "Casperlet rental kiosk v1.0" although that doesn't imply anything about the scripts inside.

I have a thought about WHY they are using in-world payments for this. As my thought is only half-formulated, I'll hold off until it is coalesced or I see someone else chime in with a similar thought.

[Rowan Amore]

So...how would you (the general you) propose LL increase revenue?  They are, I assume, not a non-profit business.  

I'm certainly not thrilled with the increases in fees either but honestly, for me, It's still a rather inexpensive form of entertainment.  

We all want different things as far as the infrastructure of SL is concerned which involves hiring people.  That costs more money every day.  

[Rick Nightingale]

So... taking from the poor to benefit the rich.

Money grabbing *"£&**!!!

You've made me wait just long enough to get the transaction limit raised on an account I've had for eight years (to sell L$ and pay for premium and name change) to get hit with this increased sell fee too.

Oh LL... you really make me want to swear!!!

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Love Zhaoying]

Let the profile picture changes (in protest) commence!

[Candide LeMay]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So...how would you (the general you) propose LL increase revenue?  They are, I assume, not a non-profit business. 

Attract more cows instead of milking the existing ones more and more. I know they've tried and failed repeatedly, so maybe if they can't figure out how to do that they don't deserve increased revenue?

[Rick Nightingale]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Let the profile picture changes (in protest) commence!

Ask and you shall receive.

-----

But seriously, LL, I know from recent threads you give not a fig about your customers apart from the serious earners and land barons who get their way every time... but you really are pushing it. Talk about taking from the poor to feed the rich. Paying for sim owners to cover their fees by raising taxes on us all... disgusting. That's all I feel right now about you LL, disgusted.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

The more I think about this, the more it seems like "trickle down economics" or, "tax the poor and give to the oh so benevolent rich"

Well, that's the interesting question, isn't it? Will it "trickle down"?

In theory, this should lower rental costs in LL . . . but not substantially, as it's not really a very substantial reduction in costs for land barons. It's less than 10%. So, will a commensurate decrease in, say, a L$500 a week rental (to L$450) -- assuming that landowners actually pass it down (we know how well that works in RL) -- have a sufficiently positive impact on the economy to make up for the really pretty substantial increase in the commission for buying L$? At the same time, the increase for fees for cashing out is going to cost land barons (regardless of whether or not they can pay for the land with L$s), who may decide that they can't afford to lower rents as a result.

It's hard to see how this is going to trickle down in any but a negative way upon the SL economy. Yes, it's going to hurt merchants, it will shrink the consumer economy, and it may result in the loss of at least some creators and even general residents.

26 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So...how would you (the general you) propose LL increase revenue?  They are, I assume, not a non-profit business.  

I'm certainly not thrilled with the increases in fees either but honestly, for me, It's still a rather inexpensive form of entertainment.  

We all want different things as far as the infrastructure of SL is concerned which involves hiring people.  That costs more money every day.  

I don't know the answer to that one, but this particular approach benefits, barely, a very small proportion of the resident population, and hits almost everyone else. Most people (most) can probably afford the extra commission on buying L$, but it also has a kind of psychological impact that I wouldn't want to just shrug off.

ETA: Forgot to make my main point, which is that this may point to a subtle shift in LL's revenue model.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Rolig Loon]

2 minutes ago, Candide LeMay said:

Attract more cows instead of milking the existing ones more and more. I know they've tried and failed repeatedly, so maybe if they can't figure out how to do that they don't deserve increased revenue?

That sounds like a setup for the old joke about two brothers who went into business selling bread. They added up all their costs for flour, eggs, salt and whatnot plus equipment, utilities, insurance, and taxes.  Then they figured how much they could charge for a loaf of bread and still stay competitive. In the end, the two calculations just balanced. "So, how are we ever going to make a profit?", asked the older brother.  "That's easy," said the younger one, "we'll just sell more bread." [Insert face palm here.]  Increasing volume isn't the answer if the underlying business model doesn't leave you with a profit in the end. 

[Coffee Pancake]

23 minutes ago, Artorius Constantine said:

I was having a bad day and it just got worse. Raising the buy and sell fees will really hurt the economy. For buyers and sellers. Very bad idea.

SL is my ONLY job. My only source of income and it's already a stretch to pay all the fees and keep enough to live on.

Every individual creator I know is on the poverty line.

Every single one.

 

People are breaking themselves to keep this place afloat.

Let that sink in LL.

[Modulated]

Me after reading the announcement :

[Paul Hexem]

So the reaction to people asking for reasonable land prices is to charge them more in small fees, mess with the economy, generate a ton of bad will, all while giving two different forms of discount to land barons... While still keeping the land prices stupid high for average residents?

Is that LL's plan here? Am I missing something or am I going to get suspended again for saying someone is making really stupid decisions in LL HQ?