Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Adam Spark]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

As technology improves, it becomes more "scalable".

If the technology (some of it very old) used by LL was more scalable, or could be made more scalable without massive funding by a third party (who would take control and ruin it for us all), that would be a nice utopia.  LL could attract more users at lower rates / cost per user, still make money, and grow.

Maybe someday as the minor incremental upgrades and improvements continue..

Agreed. Its a START, at best, but at least its a start.

[BEC1111Coverdale Skydancer]

The new decrease in full sim land price announced yesterday ... is another pathetic example of giving with one hand
while taking with the other.

Go buy enough lindens to pay the tier on a full sim then add the new 14.99 transaction fee cap to it...
that puts the cost of the land right back UP there near where it was before.

Either way the tiny decrease in "full sim cost" won't benefit me anyway.  I rent my whole private island sim from
a land baron an they don't usually give rent reductions. Slightly lower land price just means more profit for them.

THE NEW TRANSACTION FEE INCREASE HOWEVER... DOES AFFECT .... me and others here who buy large sums of Lindens each month!

The new transaction fee cap of 14.99 is as ridiculously high as the 9.99 cap that came before it in 2021!
Not only that but where does it end?  Whats next?  A 19.99 transaction fee cap in September?

No I am not a premium member NOR a creator selling stuff in SL an paying tier from profit.

But I do rent a full sim to house a city I built as a "Virtual Office / Virtual Broadcasting Studio" for our mostly non commercial ...
RL licensed radio station staff to meet in.

Each month I buy $250-$300 or more US dollars worth of lindens to pay for all that.. plus I spend a lot of lindens buying off the MP and inworld stores to support the creators in SL. as well as giving a small inworld salary to my small radio staff so they too can buy stuff an support the Second Life Economy.
 
That easily adds up to about $4,500 US dollars a year... which is a lot... considering I'm not a premium member with benefits.

But myself and others in Second Life should not be taxed or penalized for buying large sums of lindens!

SL is becoming as expensive as RL in many cases.. and I see a huge cutback in my Second Life budget coming thanks to these ridiculous high transaction fees and land prices.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Blake1111Coverdale
grammer

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

look at the other end of the scale where the increased fees are. My guess is that definitely tips in Tilia's direction.  

I may be naïve and talking out of my bu..I mean hat, but LL MUST be making money off of the Tilia transactions. Otherwise, there is no reason to "balance" the change on one side, by increase L$ purchase fees on the other.

7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I thought it was a bad plan to opt in so early when the houses weren't even on the obvious horizon, but folks did because they REALLY wanted those 2048 houses. 

Personally, I opted-in early because I wanted to buy 2048 mainland without paying 2048 tier.

8 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

So something needed to LOOK GOOD to take away some of the focus of the price increase.  

Which price increase, do you mean the increased L$ transaction fees?

9 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I am not sure this will hurt creators more than the general public EXCEPT for the increase in fees for transferring dollars out to Paypal;

Yeah, I feel "sorry" for people who depend on that income but..well you know, depending on a business model like this for income takes a certain risk that the business model will change. "Ya takes yer chances.."

11 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

But the long time creators that I know are making less now than they used too. I personally don't know one that is making more. There must be some folks that are, but the shift to sale shopping where you can get previous items that were sometimes over a thousand lindens for 50 lindens has certainly impacted the commercial climate.  Many have slowed down creating, are making smaller and less complex things or just quitting altogether if they are still here.   The increase in transaction fees to "cash out" is just going to be one more thing to make some reassess.  

Like the other changes, the BIG creators are probably just fine. Mesh body and head creators. (Until Nux comes along.)

12 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

A little bit of smoke and mirrors here :D.    

LL:

"Lookit the new bright and shiny!"

* mumbles about fee increases *

"QUICK! Look over there!"  

* Runs away *

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I just think of all the scams we already have that we try to avoid, then throwing something like that in there..

Not saying all will..I'm just saying it's opening another door for those that will see opportunity  to take advantage of others... Some even going as far as requiring your payment information and  just knowing some are gonna give it.. Then the forums getting those threads and LL getting  hit up to help and other things i really hate to think about happening..

If there is a way, there will be someone there to take advantage of it.

The answer will probably turn out, somehow, to be "Bots solve the problem".

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

The new decrease in full sim land price announced yesterday ...

OUCH

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

THE NEW TRANSACTION FEE INCREASE HOWEVER... DOES AFFECT .... me and others here who buy large sums of Lindens each month!

The new transaction fee cap of 14.99 is as ridiculously high as the 9.99 cap that came before it in 2021!
Not only that but where does it end?  Whats next?  A 19.99 transaction fee cap in September?

Edited to add: Sorry, I see now you gave your figures!

If you buy a "LARGE" sum of L$, then "14.99" should be a very small percentage of it.

Example:

If I spend US$100 / month on L$, that is $14.99  - 15%.

If I spent US$1000 / month on L$, that is still $14.99 - but 1.5%

I guess it depends on what "LARGE" is.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

14 minutes ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

The new decrease in full sim land price announced yesterday ...

OUCH

Ouch vs., "lower tier fees for private Regions"?  Brain translate good!

ETA: Ok, now I read their entire post and yes, "ouch". 

Let me do some "figuring here":

Before: Monthly buying L$, 12 x 9.99 = US$120

After: Monthly buying L$, 12 x 14.99 = US$180

If buying at the cap monthly, you'd spend US$60/year more - US$5/month more.

And if spending US$300/month, US$5 is 1.6% of US$300 per month in increased expenses.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Myst Serenity]

I wish they had given notice so I could have purchased linden prior to the raise like I did last time. Obviously this was on purpose. My friends and I have been struggling to support the little guy shops and will not be buying items any more. I would think shop owners would be complaining.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ouch vs., "lower tier fees for private Regions"?  Brain translate good!

Rebuilding an entire region is a tremendous amount of work. Not good.

[Istelathis]

I'm trying to work up the energy to be upset by this, but I just haven't got it in me at the moment.  I need to take my vitamins, drink some coffee,  clean my house, take my daily walk first and I can't even find the energy to do that at the moment 😴

 

This is all very disappointing, LL needs to work harder at offending me

 

[BJoyful]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

They just sold Tilia though.  

Linden Lab didn't sell Tilia.  They made it independent company so it could be used by other platforms in the Metaverse, not just Second Life, making it more valuable.

"The plan is to enable metaverse payments for all of the companies that need financial services for their virtual economies. Tilia will now be its own company, independent of Linden Lab, the owner of Second Life, the virtual world that debuted in 2003.

“They invested in us and they solidified a really big partnership,” said Brad Oberwager, executive chairman of Tilia. “We’re like the tip of the spear for the metaverse. They’re a good partner with a lot of credibility.” "

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

4 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I'm trying to work up the energy to be upset by this, but I just haven't got it in me at the moment.  I need to take my vitamins, drink some coffee,  clean my house, take my daily walk first and I can't even find the energy to do that at the moment 😴

 

This is all very disappointing, LL needs to work harder at offending me

 

Haha, I don't know why, but I thought you said you had to take your cat for a walk! Ha.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ouch vs., "lower tier fees for private Regions"?  Brain translate good!

Rebuilding an entire region is a tremendous amount of work. Not good.

I read their post several times, saw they are "renting" but just couldn't find where they thought they had to move and rebuild.

Sorry! I has a comprehension fail.

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I read their post several times, saw they are "renting" but just couldn't find where they thought they had to move and rebuild.

Sorry! I has a comprehension fail.

This new deal is bad for them. If they want a better deal they must switch from renting to owning. Their choice going forward is to eat the costs, own a region and rebuild, or close and walk away.

[Solar Legion]

Fixed income here. Guess what does not affect me as badly as some here would have you think? That's right - the L$ buy fee increase. Why? I don't go buying enough to be affected. $25-30 at the start of the month for my 4096 on a PI plus a little left over. Stipend offsets a little more on occasion. If need be I'll snap up an item from the MP using RL sources directly (which has been an option for quite some time so there is no reason to have an MP dedicated to such).

A grip. Get one.

Comparing SL to VRC et al? No comparison - none, period. Leave it at the door until such places have the same overhead and identical avatar/inventory systems (why yes, I use VRC. No, I do not see it as even close to SL in any way).

The rest of this thread? Noise and a handful of the usual suspects drumming up their usual drama.

Like it or not (and I don't - do not think otherwise) something was going to have to give, some increase in a fee somewhere. It will happen again later down the road. Unavoidable.

Believe otherwise? Go and make an exact clone, using the same software, hosting services/tier and with employees you actually need to pay. Until then? You haven't a single clue. No, no smarmy backtalk. You don't have a single clue.

[Theresa Tennyson]

29 minutes ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

The new decrease in full sim land price announced yesterday ... is another pathetic example of giving with one hand
while taking with the other.

Go buy enough lindens to pay the tier on a full sim then add the new 14.99 transaction fee cap to it...
that puts the cost of the land right back UP there near where it was before.

Either way the tiny decrease in "full sim cost" won't benefit me anyway.  I rent my whole private island sim from
a land baron an they don't usually give rent reductions. Slightly lower land price just means more profit for them.

THE NEW TRANSACTION FEE INCREASE HOWEVER... DOES AFFECT .... me and others here who buy large sums of Lindens each month!

The new transaction fee cap of 14.99 is as ridiculously high as the 9.99 cap that came before it in 2021!
Not only that but where does it end?  Whats next?  A 19.99 transaction fee cap in September?

No I am not a premium member NOR a creator selling stuff in SL an paying tier from profit.

But I do rent a full sim to house a city I built as a "Virtual Office / Virtual Broadcasting Studio" for our mostly non commercial ...
RL licensed radio station staff to meet in.

Each month I buy $250-$300 or more US dollars worth of lindens to pay for all that.. plus I spend a lot of lindens buying off the MP and inworld stores to support the creators in SL. as well as giving a small inworld salary to my small radio staff so they too can buy stuff an support the Second Life Economy.
 
That easily adds up to about $4,500 US dollars a year... which is a lot... considering I'm not a premium member with benefits.

But myself and others in Second Life should not be taxed or penalized for buying large sums of lindens!

SL is becoming as expensive as RL in many cases.. and I see a huge cutback in my Second Life budget coming thanks to these ridiculous high transaction fees and land prices.

Theresa Tennyson scratches her head.

Then, why don't you just buy your own region? You'll be paying less than you are now, and the transaction fees aren't going to be an issue.

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Fixed income here. Guess what does not affect me as badly as some here would have you think? That's right - the L$ buy fee increase. Why? I don't go buying enough to be affected. $25-30 at the start of the month for my 4096 on a PI plus a little left over. Stipend offsets a little more on occasion. If need be I'll snap up an item from the MP using RL sources directly (which has been an option for quite some time so there is no reason to have an MP dedicated to such).

A grip. Get one.

Comparing SL to VRC et al? No comparison - none, period. Leave it at the door until such places have the same overhead and identical avatar/inventory systems (why yes, I use VRC. No, I do not see it as even close to SL in any way).

The rest of this thread? Noise and a handful of the usual suspects drumming up their usual drama.

Like it or not (and I don't - do not think otherwise) something was going to have to give, some increase in a fee somewhere. It will happen again later down the road. Unavoidable.

Believe otherwise? Go and make an exact clone, using the same software, hosting services/tier and with employees you actually need to pay. Until then? You haven't a single clue. No, no smarmy backtalk. You don't have a single clue.

You stole the words from my mouth. 

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This new deal is bad for them. If they want a better deal they must switch from renting to owning. Their choice going forward is to eat the costs, own a region and rebuild, or close and walk away.

Thanks, that makes more sense. (I did not see that in their text. *Lack of knowing.)

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Solar Legion]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

You stole the words from my mouth. 

Considering the varied situations I have been in over the years and my other expenditures (many of which are there to help keep me 'sane') .... This is - sum total - the least expensive of my entertainment budget bits.

I get that there are those who rely on Second Life as an income. I'm finding it increasingly harder to feel for some while I myself have to worry about the less than even minimum wage (far less) I have to work with each and every month plus the insane cuts to things like SNAP (I am going to have to start getting creative now to make some things stretch out).

I am fast approaching the levels of "I don't want to hear it" one often sees in the most jaded members of the populace ....

[EliseAnne85]

27 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

Linden Lab didn't sell Tilia.  They made it independent company so it could be used by other platforms in the Metaverse, not just Second Life, making it more valuable.

"The plan is to enable metaverse payments for all of the companies that need financial services for their virtual economies. Tilia will now be its own company, independent of Linden Lab, the owner of Second Life, the virtual world that debuted in 2003.

“They invested in us and they solidified a really big partnership,” said Brad Oberwager, executive chairman of Tilia. “We’re like the tip of the spear for the metaverse. They’re a good partner with a lot of credibility.” "

 

Oh.  

Maybe Tilia wants to be the new Paypal and will IPO on the NYSE.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Merchants attempting to cope with this news:

https://gyazo.com/6c8d451078aef44c4928728493f4ba36

https://gyazo.com/58f4f25393b56c9977bd0886bc87bd76

Looks like they're having fits! Or perhaps trying to conjure a solution using some type of pagan ritual.

[Sammy Huntsman]

6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Considering the varied situations I have been in over the years and my other expenditures (many of which are there to help keep me 'sane') .... This is - sum total - the least expensive of my entertainment budget bits.

I get that there are those who rely on Second Life as an income. I'm finding it increasingly harder to feel for some while I myself have to worry about the less than even minimum wage (far less) I have to work with each and every month plus the insane cuts to things like SNAP (I am going to have to start getting creative now to make some things stretch out).

I am fast approaching the levels of "I don't want to hear it" one often sees in the most jaded members of the populace ....

I'm on a fixed income myself, I'm on disability and really can't afford that much. I mean yeah we get that these people are annoyed. But some of us can't afford half the crap they can and we realize that this is a company not a donation. 

[Love Zhaoying]

I hope we hear from more users who can confirm that this change, for them, means less VAT tax to be paid.

If so, that will be a BIG plus for them!

Not for the rest of us, but for somebody!

 

[Rowan Amore]

20 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Theresa Tennyson scratches her head.

Then, why don't you just buy your own region? You'll be paying less than you are now, and the transaction fees aren't going to be an issue.

Don't some rental companies also offer the option to use PayPal to pay directly with $ instead of Ls?  IIRC, they only charge a fee for currency conversation?  3 or 4 percent?

If I were concerned about the increase in fees through LL, I'd be looking into paying with cold hard cash.

[Qie Niangao]

14 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This new deal is bad for them. If they want a better deal they must switch from renting to owning. Their choice going forward is to eat the costs, own a region and rebuild, or close and walk away.

14 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Theresa Tennyson scratches her head.

Then, why don't you just buy your own region? You'll be paying less than you are now, and the transaction fees aren't going to be an issue.

[Emphases mine.] Doesn't it seem, then, that this change must be very bad for Estate owners? I mean, if it gives this tremendous incentive to dump your landlord and buy your own region, that's gonna eat the Estate owners lunch, sooner or later.

I suspect the actual situation amounts to much less than meets the eye. For starters, Estate owners who don't cut their rents commensurate with these cuts in their (and their competitors') costs deserve to have their lunches eaten—and most can't be stupid enough to let that happen.

Also, why should a tenant need to buy L$s to pay Estate rents? Don't all reputable Estates accept US$ payments, too—especially now if they'd need to pay LindeX fees to convert those L$s to pay LL in US$s? (If paying L$s was a VAT play, somehow, for somebody, well, how has that changed already, with the Lab now picking up the VAT tab? Does that put even more pressure in favor of owning one's own private region instead of paying a big Estate?)