Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Rick Nightingale]

@Phil Deakins Thank you for the unnecessary lecture. Perhaps to your surprise, I do have some experience of large companies up to middle management level and I have never, in four decades, seen one that does not operate with greed as the primary driving force. As to pay rises... I haven't had one that has kept up with inflation for twenty years. Neither has my wife. Both of us in highly professional areas. Yet the company high-ups and shareholders still get richer and richer.

That's life. Doesn't mean I'm not going to complain about it.

@Rowan Amore Saving US$240 a year is significant... they would have to spend US$4800 on L$ to pay that in increased fees.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Rick Nightingale]

6 minutes ago, Charolotte Caxton said:

Thank you for this information, I hope Region Owners, who literally make Second Life (minus Mainland, Moles, etc), are able to make your loss worth it. So an extra twenty dollars! lets hit the MP!

Why do you seem to have a bone to pick with me? I don't want to have to pay extra to give region owners cheaper regions. Is that wrong of me? It's not even my opinion that that is what is happening... LL states it!

How do region owners literally make SL? Sounds like you feel entitled to special treatment for being a region owner now.

This is getting silly, isn't it?

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Well, back in November, there was a significant tier reduction for Mainland, coincidental with the Premium Plus announcement.

It wasn't quite what I'd been hoping for,  but Mainland costs reduced roughly on the scale of this current Estate fees reduction, I think. So it's like they're staggering one then the other (possibly testing what one reduction does to the other's market?)

I wonder, though, whether we'll be able to pay L$-denominated Mainland tier in-world someday.

Come to think of it, at one point there was talk of being able to use Premium bonus tier towards Estate fees or even pass-thru for rents. (That didn't happen yet, though, right? I lose track.)

Thanks for the reminder. (I only "own" mainland, and benefitted from the PPlus change of 2048 vs. 1024.)

Ironic, given those recent changes, that there are some complaints which apparently mean "Mainland does not benefit" - but they so recently benefitted from a change!  

[Charolotte Caxton]

2 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

Why do you seem to have a bone to pick with me? I don't want to have to pay extra to give region owners cheaper regions. Is that wrong of me? It's not even my opinion that that is what is happening... LL states it!

How do region owners literally make SL? Sounds like you feel entitled to special treatment for being a region owner now.

This is getting silly, isn't it?

No, don't. I have nothing against you, I thought I was trying extra hard to be courteous.

[Love Zhaoying]

22 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The large land companies might make out but your average SL resident owning one island for their own personal use is saving $20 and still paying the increase in fees to purchase Ls to make other purchases for their island.  Unless said land owner is a premium member AND a content creator, they aren't really saving all that much and certainly not at your expense.

It would be nice if, at worst, it was "a wash" for some!

[Rick Nightingale]

Perhaps one or other of us (probably both, since you thought I was blaming you and region owners earlier when I said nothing of the sort) is getting our wires crossed a bit. Best leave it there

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

4 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

Perhaps one or other of us (probably both, since you thought I was blaming you and region owners earlier when I said nothing of the sort) is getting our wires crossed a bit. Best leave it there

 

thank you! let's let the rest of us chime in, I owe you a cup of tea  and a delicious orange chocolate 

[Ceka Cianci]

6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I got crickets on this question. No surprise!

 

I must have missed that one.. Membership fee's went up with a land price reduction back in 2019.

I'm just saying when they went up the last time and when land prices went down.. It's up to others to feel how they feel about what else came with that.. I am enjoying my linden home.

I have my own reasons for the world slowly fading out of my life.. It has more to do with the world becoming a more fast food watered down version of it's former self, than it does with money.. When I said something about the increases being like taxes, that was really just meant as humor and not really meant to be taken seriously.. hehehe

Aaaanyways, Then In 2021 linden dollar fee's went up 7.5%.. I guess for things they are still getting finished today..

 

Anyways, I've already slowed way down on my linden purchases back in October.. I'm enjoying the linden home that comes with the membership fee and make the best of the weekly stipend.  I really don't need to buy much more.. I mean there isn't anywhere near the variety out there today as their used to be.. So maybe when i see more creative things on my trips to the store I'll maybe get something.. but no more off the cuff impulse buys since I stopped back in October..

SL is still a good hang , But I sure wish it would get back to being the escape it used to be.. It's not so much moving that direction anymore.

[Ceka Cianci]

it must have Double posted when they were tuning the forums..

Edited March 7, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Andred Darwin]

My 2 cents, is that management is being proactive, and trying to prevent further "bleed", I guess it will work if it can reflect lower land prices, increased land usage benefits everyone.

Personally, I'm not fond at all of higher lindex fees, but I'm not sure how much of it will be noticed compared to reduced region prices (another 1 cent, $199 would sound a lot better than $209), I guess the next thing we will see is in-world price inflation vs linden dollars/currency.

I'm sure is really hard to manage the SL ecosystem specially when it cannot meaningfully grow, the pricing adjustment over the past few months for sure may or did help keep the boat going, but, like we have seen before, the boost doesn't seem to last very long.

I'm wondering if management will do anything at all to try to grow user base (real users) in 2023, if it works now with the published average of 53000 users, would not be worth to try to increase it? Overall SL is better than before, no questions... Doesn't even need to be the 58 million average daily users compared to the other platform, but how many of those so called 67 million SL accounts so far could be invited to try it again?

As users, we could really use an "upgrade" in management with actions to increase the number of users and engagement, the ones that are here will probably continue to be here for while (I will, lol).

If not too much to ask, please don't screw up PBR launch, like it was done with the recent marketplace launch, the PBR project is awesome, please don't rush it, please don’t release it "half baked", keep in mind that the first impression is the one that matters, I know it’s still under development (really nice work so far btw), but in some (most) cases it will change a lot how “current” SL looks ”today”, a majority of users don't really care about the GLTF specification or “tech bla bla bla”, but they may not be pleased if, all the time they spent and money they spent, all of the sudden doesn't look at all as it used to ( it will be great to look better over time! ) ... the job done with server and viewer performance improvement over the last few months was great!

Edited March 7, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[EliseAnne85]

55 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Companies exist to make profits and companies frequently do things to increase profits. It's what companies do. They don't reach a certain profit level and decide to stick there because it's enough. 

They just sold Tilia though.  

However, with the war and inflation, I know myself and I know of others who have had no choice but to cut spending because essential needs come first and SL is not an essential need unless one looks at it as a kind of therapy, especially for those who are hobby builders.  So, I'm sure LL's profit has been down a bit.

It's just that everywhere nearly there are price increases in rl.  We can only be stretched so much before we break or start feeling the need to conserve cash as this is abnormal inflation in real life.  I just thought it was poor timing because of world economic problems and especially since Tilia sold what about less than six months ago?

I have made good hobby money most of my SL building except for the beginning.  It takes awhile for people to know you even have a store.  But, I have made exactly 149 lindens in the past two weeks and I've never seen SL like this, ever.  I've always made much more than that!  149 lindens in two weeks...who would want to build in SL for that.  That is why I am NOT building at this time at all nor have I built for months.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[BJoyful]

4 hours ago, Elvina Ewing said:

would it be possible to create a Marketplace where we could sell/buy SL items for US$, instead of L$? To cut out the middleman, so to speak.

That could be an awful lot more work for small income earners, having to collect, report and remit state sales taxes, etc.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, BJoyful said:

4 hours ago, Elvina Ewing said:

would it be possible to create a Marketplace where we could sell/buy SL items for US$, instead of L$? To cut out the middleman, so to speak.

That could be an awful lot more work for small income earners, having to collect, report and remit state sales taxes, etc.

Yeah, there's probably a whole lot of implications if this was done.  If purchases were no longer in "Tokens", etc. then  LL would have to perform PayPal / Credit Card / etc. transactions for each purchase, instead of just debiting your "L$ Tokens balance".  That would be more expensive for LL!  (And probably the cost of doing it would be passed on to the users.)

[Ceka Cianci]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yeah, there's probably a whole lot of implications if this was done.  If purchases were no longer in "Tokens", etc. then  LL would have to perform PayPal / Credit Card / etc. transactions for each purchase, instead of just debiting your "L$ Tokens balance".  That would be more expensive for LL!  (And probably the cost of doing it would be passed on to the users.)

let alone you would be taxed on each purchase if you had a sales tax, plus now you are outside for all eyes to see on all your purchases and the seller seen for all their sales/income of each item sold. The seller is going to add in their expenses and the things will probably end up costing more than they would if they were bought with $L..

Just the record keeping alone would be like, worse than doing bitcoin taxes at tax time if you had a really busy store.. It wouldn't be a 1099misc that someone gave you..you would have to crunch the numbers that went on the form..hehehe

There are probably a ton of other reasons why it would not be such a good way to go, but it's too early in the day for me to have my brain working that hard.. I'm still on my first cup. hehehe

 

[Luna Bliss]

Merchants attempting to cope with this news:

https://gyazo.com/6c8d451078aef44c4928728493f4ba36

https://gyazo.com/58f4f25393b56c9977bd0886bc87bd76

[Love Zhaoying]

Speaking of "news" - this was done at an interesting time, considering news has a lot of articles about "Meta" pulling out of the "Metaverse" (in favor of AI / ChapGPT-style investments instead)..

 

[Akane Nacht]

For me as an average SL peasant, the region fees matter not at all, and the L buy fees won't make any difference to the trifling amounts I buy. I look more at the USD exchange rate tbh.

Random thought: perhaps it's time they streamlined paid memberships more to the type of users we are rather than a list of things that don't always make sense to be bundled together. For eg creator package, landowner package, resident package. 

[Prokofy Neva]

So if I understand correctly, "land barons" can pay for ONLY one region (island? or full Mainland sim as well?) in Linden dollars at an inworld kiosk --at a rate that appears worse than if you converted Lindens to dollars and paid the fee. And presumably at what ever rate will get the bill paid on time, and we are likely to see the Linden dollar further devalue, currently at 246 to cash out instantly; 244 maybe not even in a week.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

10 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

looks to me that the ones paying in L$ are going to pay half of the reduced costs for them.
These rates are not 250/1

 

How do you figure that? In fact, if you pay in Lindens, you'll be paying more, at the current rates, even without the fee.

So at the current rapid cashout rate of 245, using the regular system paying on the web site, I'd yield $111.13 for $27225, after fees, and have US $16.13 left over paying for my $95 homestead (before tax).

But paying inworld, my $27225 is devalued, that has to cover the $95. I am not getting at all how this saves me money. Paying in Linden dollars will cost more! This makes no sense. It's also adding to the devaluation of the Linden dollar.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[taroseer]

So lets get this straight... As a small/medium store owner, this has just arbitrarily snapped 2.5% of my income when I'm already eating maruchan instant ramen so as not to go hungry, the inflation is so extreme, and the income so tight now due to the tightening of belts against said same inflation in the face of buying digital toys. And on top of that, my customers are going to be feeling like they're actually paying *more* for my products, because of the arbitrary 5% linden price increase. Meaning my sales are going to drop further.

And on top of that I own a grandfathered region, of which it was always a reassuring nest egg that I could as a last ditch 'I need money now so I don't starve or get evicted' is worth even less compared to normal private regions, and even harder to actually sell should it ever come to that...

I give up, I literally give up, a job opportunity came up and even starting at minimum wage I will be making a lot more than I think I could ever hope to with my store, even with the supplemental cash flow of taking commissions towards new products. 😢

Edited March 8, 2023 by taroseer

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

How do you figure that? In fact, if you pay in Lindens, you'll be paying more, at the current rates, even without the fee.

 

To me it sounded more like a convenience than a deal they were giving.. like for people that don't really cash out that much, or for a convenience of just doing it all in one place.. Usually most things made more convenient come with a convenience fee..

[benchthis]

16 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I took time off and haven't created since perhaps three things for Christmas because of PBR.  I'm not going to build only to find it doesn't look good in PBR.

But, yes, I pretty much haven't made much either so my spending has been nil for months.  

I feel like I'm just floating or in limbo.  

I just read some stuff in the PBR Wiki they have attached to this new fee news and it says (paraphrasing) while we are doing everything to make sure no older content breaks, ALM will be forced on.  

SL is just not happening right now, plus there is a war on and super high inflation where I live where items are 3, 4, 5 dollars more apiece.  

We need the economy to settle down before we know how SL will re-emerge but companies trying to raise money when some of us should really just be shutting our doors is another difficult pill to swallow.  This is the worst economy I've ever lived through, personally.

I'm tired of just being here floating too...but what else can we do.  Should they reduce upload costs to half or free or what?  We are kind of in a crisis and a non-needed box of cookies was given to the more well off.  

Most of us are surviving. A show on discovery channel called life below zero; about living in the wilds of alaska, anyways a lady named Sue lives northern alaska and she worded what is happening now very well. She was talking about food but made sense to me. We can either survive or thrive. She made a joke about being heavy set and that she's thriving but knows what it's like to survive and is why she plans for her future.

I could go on an on about how LL/SL can change for the better, we all do all the time, creators are leaving, new creators are struggling. Most of us are observing and wondering why? This does make for a good read so far enjoying it. Hope LL/SL appreciates this feedback.  

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

17 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

How do you figure that? In fact, if you pay in Lindens, you'll be paying more, at the current rates, even without the fee.

 

To me it sounded more like a convenience than a deal they were giving.. like for people that don't really cash out that much, or for a convenience of just doing it all in one place.. Usually most things made more convenient come with a convenience fee..

Plus: If you are a creator / make L$ by doing things in-world, then you will have L$ to pay for your land, and will not need to BUY more L$ - so you will not pay the L$ fee / penalty for buying more L$.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Side note: In the past, LL has had make drastic cuts to their workforce. Perhaps, if they increase their profits enough, they could add to the workforce, as I am absolutely sure they would want to do.

They had to make drastic cuts because half the company went off on a Sansar flight of fantasy while we paid for it. SL got shelved and put onto maintenance mode for years (why do you think we're only now looking at PBR and Vulkan and have completely failed to take a seat at the metaverse table we helped create). This all lead up to us getting new owners and what's exciting? The payment processing. Which is now its own extra company with extra staff and only exists to exchange our money and we are still paying for it. 

The extra 5% for buying L$ and marketplace fees really aren't providing value down here on the ground. I'm sure Tilia's books are looking better though, that should make their CEO and the bank sittin on it's board happy.

Someone needs to suggest LL buy Tilia, their business meshes so well with ours, a merger would reduce overheads, boost the internal economy and assure SL's future as the only metaverse.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Maybe after this "Beta Period", there will be an option to pay monthly fees for MORE than 1 Private Region with L$.  That still doesn't help the unwashed masses.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Love Zhaoying