Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Rick Nightingale]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Every individual creator I know is on the poverty line.

Every single one.

Yep - I just about balance, and that's it. Take just a bit more and I can't afford my land, my memberships... what do you think happens then LL? I'll turn into a freeloader, not contributing with money, not making anything because you don't deserve it and what's the point if I can't make enough L$ to keep going.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

this may point to a subtle shift in LL's revenue model.

This is dovetailing into my thoughts about the "must pay at kiosk" model for the new L$-for-Region payments. Subtle.

[Candide LeMay]

6 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

That sounds like a setup for the old joke about two brothers who went into business selling bread. They added up all their costs for flour, eggs, salt and whatnot plus equipment, utilities, insurance, and taxes.  Then they figured how much they could charge for a loaf of bread and still stay competitive. In the end, the two calculations just balanced. "So, how are we ever going to make a profit?", asked the older brother.  "That's easy," said the younger one, "we'll just sell more bread." [Insert face palm here.]  Increasing volume isn't the answer if the underlying business model doesn't leave you with a profit in the end. 

The question was how to increase revenue. As far as I can tell SL has been profitable the whole time. Good ole Ebbe described it as a cash machine few years back.

[Rick Nightingale]

The greedy never have a big enough cash machine, as long as someone else still has some money that isn't theirs... yet.

[Paul Hexem]

26 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So...how would you (the general you) propose LL increase revenue?  They are, I assume, not a non-profit business.  

I'm certainly not thrilled with the increases in fees either but honestly, for me, It's still a rather inexpensive form of entertainment.  

We all want different things as far as the infrastructure of SL is concerned which involves hiring people.  That costs more money every day.  

My immediate response is "make Premium and Premium + more attractive".

Monthly subscriptions are a huge source of revenue- look at what happened to Blizzard when WoW came out. The discounts that land barons got here should also apply to Premium or Premium + residents at least.

Homesteads should have been reduced just like full regions. The whole point of moving to AWS was to be able to roll out regions and homesteads faster, easier, and cheaper. They should be taking advantage of that.

[Rick Nightingale]

I'm sure LL thinks this will all blow over... people will forget. They have short memories.

I don't forget, and this will impact my decision next time my and my wife's and alts' memberships are due.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[Love Zhaoying]

I like how the announcement showed that land prices have been going down the last few years (for full region monthly fees).

To me, that buys a lot of goodwill.

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Every individual creator I know is on the poverty line.

Every single one.

 

People are breaking themselves to keep this place afloat.

Let that sink in LL.

I took time off and haven't created since perhaps three things for Christmas because of PBR.  I'm not going to build only to find it doesn't look good in PBR.

But, yes, I pretty much haven't made much either so my spending has been nil for months.  

I feel like I'm just floating or in limbo.  

I just read some stuff in the PBR Wiki they have attached to this new fee news and it says (paraphrasing) while we are doing everything to make sure no older content breaks, ALM will be forced on.  

SL is just not happening right now, plus there is a war on and super high inflation where I live where items are 3, 4, 5 dollars more apiece.  

We need the economy to settle down before we know how SL will re-emerge but companies trying to raise money when some of us should really just be shutting our doors is another difficult pill to swallow.  This is the worst economy I've ever lived through, personally.

I'm tired of just being here floating too...but what else can we do.  Should they reduce upload costs to half or free or what?  We are kind of in a crisis and a non-needed box of cookies was given to the more well off.  

[Dutch Mainsail]

so… creators have to foot the bill for this new change. I’m guessing not a lot of creators were consulted when this was decided.

All the new premium plus perks are great, for those 5 people that actually have a premium plus account. 

Looks to me this is all just another way of stealing yet a bit more out of creator’s pockets, but neatly wrapped up in a price decrease for… well those 5 people.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

On this note, can anyone tell me why LL didn't charge my CC on file directly for my premium membership? I got a "warning" email about it.  

On topic, this sucks. Raising exchange fees is wrong. You want more people to join and stay, dont charge them more to do so. The economy sucks enough without having to pay more and more for the luxury of using SL.

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Candide LeMay said:

The question was how to increase revenue. As far as I can tell SL has been profitable the whole time. Good ole Ebbe described it as a cash machine few years back.

And there's where a forum discussion really breaks down. You and I can't tell what the Lab's business model looks like or how the numbers balance. We only see SL from a resident perspective; we have to make wild speculations about whether SL is a "cash cow" or whether wages and other business costs have been eating into their profitability the way that they have for other companies.  With nothing but gut reactions to go on, I don't see a good way to decide whether decisions like these make sense or not.

[Modulated]

Been sitting and thinking since my last post. I am not a seller or creator, just someone who spends a few extra bucks here when I can for some fun. I will probably be pulling back now, because this is just too over the top for me personally.

[Paul Hexem]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I like how the announcement showed that land prices have been going down the last few years (for full region monthly fees).

To me, that buys a lot of goodwill.

Less than ridiculous high is still high.

Even at these "reduced" prices, I can still buy a server box capable of running multiple regions for about the same price as one month's tier.

Also, I'm not sure we can talk about goodwill when the announcement says that the changes are already in effect- no warning for people looking to plan for the new prices.

[Modulated]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

 

Also, I'm not sure we can talk about goodwill when the announcement says that the changes are already in effect- no warning for people looking to plan for the new prices.

That is what bothered me a lot, no warning like usual. Its like bam, the fees are higher starting now, live with it. Um, no.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Modulated

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I like how the announcement showed that land prices have been going down the last few years (for full region monthly fees).

To me, that buys a lot of goodwill.

Yes, it looks "good."

But how many actual LL residents are impacted by those reductions? It's a pretty small proportion. That's precisely why LL can afford to do it: it's not their major source of revenue.

I'm really wondering whether a move to increase consumer power might not have been a better move. But it would also, of course, have been a more expensive move, and any increased profit generated would be slow to come, as the economy expanded.

[Dutch Mainsail]

Just wondering though… aren’t lower land prices supposed to sell more land?

Then how come transaction fees have to go up to foot this bill? What bill is there to be footed?

When i’m reading this i’m thinking “we want to sell more of our cash cow land, so let’s make buying land more attractive… oh and let’s make it look like we’re actually doing a fair thing when we screw over our creators some more on top of that”

[Arielle Popstar]

59 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So...how would you (the general you) propose LL increase revenue?  They are, I assume, not a non-profit business.  

I'm certainly not thrilled with the increases in fees either but honestly, for me, It's still a rather inexpensive form of entertainment.  

We all want different things as far as the infrastructure of SL is concerned which involves hiring people.  That costs more money every day.  

Well they could have trotted out the things they are supposedly working on like the PBR, Mobile viewer, etc and then raised the prices. The Inventory preview they just grabbed from a tpv dev anyway so not like that actually cost them anything. They are raising fee prices without giving anything in return to the majority of residents and are continually reneging on promises they have made about the roll out of the features.

[EliseAnne85]

33 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

You and I can't tell what the Lab's business model looks like or how the numbers balance.

I know but when items, like personal items, face cream, shampoo, body wash cost $3, 4, 5 dollars more apiece for just some examples, I think businesses and LL need to look at their customers point of view also.  Do they think we are all rich during a war and the worst inflation I've ever seen?  Companies are not being realistic.  They have to try to keep us here, not lose us, and not lose new customers who will say "can't afford it".  

It's a horrible time in so many ways.  I don't spend in SL for months now, and my SL has NEVER, ever been that way.  Somethings gotta give.

Edited March 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Rowan Amore]

 

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well they could have trotted out the things they are supposedly working on like the PBR, Mobile viewer, etc and then raised the prices. The Inventory preview they just grabbed from a tpv dev anyway so not like that actually cost them anything. They are raising fee prices without giving anything in return to the majority of residents and are continually reneging on promises they have made about the roll out of the features.

My electric, cable, gas and water bill all went up considerably in the last couple.of years.   Essential things.  Still getting the same exact product/service.

The dozen eggs is still only a dozen but the price has gone up 70% in the last year.  Groceries in general have risen to ridiculous prices.  Essential things.

45 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

My immediate response is "make Premium and Premium + more attractive".

Monthly subscriptions are a huge source of revenue- look at what happened to Blizzard when WoW came out. The discounts that land barons got here should also apply to Premium or Premium + residents at least.

Homesteads should have been reduced just like full regions. The whole point of moving to AWS was to be able to roll out regions and homesteads faster, easier, and cheaper. They should be taking advantage of that.

This is probably the best solution.  When they first talked about PP, I was excited...until I saw the price.  There is nothing in it worth more than twice the price of Premium.   The only thing of value to me was the increase in land.  Might have been smarter to do an a la carte PP, IMO.

[Candide LeMay]

Another aspect of this change that bothers me is this:

How much of the collected revenue from these fees stays in SL and could at least in principle be reinvested and how much goes to Tilia? Tilia is a separate business entity and them making more money does diddly squat for SL/us.

[Dutch Mainsail]

52 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

And there's where a forum discussion really breaks down. You and I can't tell what the Lab's business model looks like or how the numbers balance. We only see SL from a resident perspective; we have to make wild speculations about whether SL is a "cash cow" or whether wages and other business costs have been eating into their profitability the way that they have for other companies.  With nothing but gut reactions to go on, I don't see a good way to decide whether decisions like these make sense or not.

You can actually tell. Just from this change alone. LL’s policy is to focus on land and make that more attractive and cash in as much as they can on the market economy. I’m sure it’s the profitable thing to do for them.

Only one problem with that though. Land is computer servers and the marketplace economy is actual people… it’s a bad choice. It’s what Meta would do.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Dutch Mainsail

[MoiraKathleen]

While it will be a little bit more money to buy L$'s in the amount I usually buy, I don't see that affecting my L$ buying habits.

[Love Zhaoying]

38 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, it looks "good."

But how many actual LL residents are impacted by those reductions? It's a pretty small proportion. That's precisely why LL can afford to do it: it's not their major source of revenue.

I'm really wondering whether a move to increase consumer power might not have been a better move. But it would also, of course, have been a more expensive move, and any increased profit generated would be slow to come, as the economy expanded.

..anyone encouraged to buy Regions / land is also impacted, not just those who already own Regions / land. So in a "what if" scenario: what if, the reduction encouraged even a 1% increase in Region / land purchases? Small percent, big numbers.

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

My electric, cable, gas and water bill all went up considerably in the last couple.of years.   Essential things.  Still getting the same exact product/service.

The dozen eggs is still only a dozen but the price has gone up 70% in the last year.  Groceries in general have risen to ridiculous prices.  Essential things.

Those things went up because of political decisions and policies which LL is not subject to. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..anyone encouraged to buy Regions / land is also impacted, not just those who already own Regions / land. So in a "what if" scenario: what if, the reduction encouraged even a 1% increase in Region / land purchases? Small percent, big numbers.

I presume that this is what they are counting on. Unfortunately, the savings there are counterbalanced by additional costs in cashing out and buying in, so I'm not sure that's going to happen.

I honestly don't know (and I suspect LL doesn't really either), whether this will work to the benefit of SL or not. I guess we'll see.