Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[Elvina Ewing]

14 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

let alone you would be taxed on each purchase if you had a sales tax, plus now you are outside for all eyes to see on all your purchases and the seller seen for all their sales/income of each item sold. The seller is going to add in their expenses and the things will probably end up costing more than they would if they were bought with $L..

Just the record keeping alone would be like, worse than doing bitcoin taxes at tax time if you had a really busy store.. It wouldn't be a 1099misc that someone gave you..you would have to crunch the numbers that went on the form..hehehe

There are probably a ton of other reasons why it would not be such a good way to go, but it's too early in the day for me to have my brain working that hard.. I'm still on my first cup. hehehe

 

But SL Marketplace website was once not LL-owned but a user-made. What if some other smart User was to create another new Marketplace where people would also pay with tokens/credits and the goods would be delivered in SL through Magic Boxes like they used to with the old MP. Only those tokens would not be L$, but just website's native tokens/credits. And 1 credit/token would equal to 1L$. The Buyer would buy those credits in bunches for their own local currency at the rate that exists on Lindex paying with Paypal (or some other RL online monetary system), then pay for different SL goods on the Marketplace with those credits. The Seller would then cash out those credits to their Paypal in their local currency. Thus we would cut a lot on currency conversion fees (local to US$), L$ conversion fees, and LL cashout-to-Paypal draconian fees. Obviously, the Website would take a percentage cut off each sale, but obviously it should be less than what we are paying now in total.

I don't have much knowledge on the subject and am just musing, if such a thing could be possible at all...

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe after this "Beta Period", there will be an option to pay monthly fees for MORE than 1 Private Region with L$.  That still doesn't help the unwashed masses.

Which would be another huge gift to the big land holders.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe after this "Beta Period", there will be an option to pay monthly fees for MORE than 1 Private Region with L$.  That still doesn't help the unwashed masses.

Which would be another huge gift to the big land holders.

Sometimes, the benefits and way "Trickle-down" is used makes you wonder if: 

a) Someone failed Economics 101 ("Trickle-down" economics is generally disproven, unless one is so inclined to believe whatever they want)

b) LL really makes more money off the Private Regions (and L$ fees even though Tilia owns that now - that's why they are "raised" as a balancing act), so does whatever they can to encourage their ownership.  

 

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Plus: If you are a creator / make L$ by doing things in-world, then you will have L$ to pay for your land, and will not need to BUY more L$ - so you will not pay the L$ fee / penalty for buying more L$.

Ya, it's definitely not cut and dry on it being good or bad..  Like always, some will see it as a nice added perk and others are going to have more to add on the expense side at tax time..

[Rowan Amore]

46 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Random thought: perhaps it's time they streamlined paid memberships more to the type of users we are rather than a list of things that don't always make sense to be bundled together. For eg creator package, landowner package, resident package. 

Yep, the new PP should have had an a la carte menu.  Each tier added at a separate price up to the $249 or whatever.  As I mentioned, I was excited for the added land ONLY.  I'd have been happy to pay an additional price that was less than adding that 1024 per month.  The rest of the stuff, I don't want or need.

[Coffee Pancake]

16 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ya, it's definitely not cut and dry on it being good or bad..  Like always, some will see it as a nice added perk and others are going to have more to add on the expense side at tax time..

It's great if you're in the land business as this deletes the single biggest line item from the balance sheet and massively simplifies accounting and tax. Assets aren't assets if you can pay for them with in game tokens. This will have huge knock on ramifications for the L$ economy and how LL operate L$ supply and its value.

That would be why this has a 6 month beta period, not because they are working out the 'technical bugs'. This is open heart surgery with a spoon and anything can happen.

My money is on this pressuring LL to accelerate the L$'s gradual devaluation and lead to a further increase in Tilia's fees as they look to replace lost volume.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is open heart surgery with a spoon and anything can happen.

I am reminded of the "Jellied monkey brain" dessert in "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom".  

Brain surgery - with a spoon.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Elvina Ewing said:

But SL Marketplace website was once not LL-owned but a user-made. What if some other smart User was to create another new Marketplace where people would also pay with tokens/credits and the goods would be delivered in SL through Magic Boxes like they used to with the old MP. Only those tokens would not be L$, but just website's native tokens/credits. And 1 credit/token would equal to 1L$. The Buyer would buy those credits in bunches for their own local currency at the rate that exists on Lindex paying with Paypal (or some other RL online monetary system), then pay for different SL goods on the Marketplace with those credits. The Seller would then cash out those credits to their Paypal in their local currency. Thus we would cut a lot on currency conversion fees (local to US$), L$ conversion fees, and LL cashout-to-Paypal draconian fees. Obviously, the Website would take a percentage cut off each sale, but obviously it should be less than what we are paying now in total.

I don't have much knowledge on the subject and am just musing, if such a thing could be possible at all...

Those markets were using Lindens as well.. Xstreet was one, which I believe had some problems towards the end with something over intellectual property or trademarks or something.. it was so long ago.. Then there was ONrez and also Slap, which I was friends with the one starting that up.. They had started up pretty close towards the end of the outside markets..

I was mainly answering about using USD for purchases..  I'm sure if someone wanted to try it they could..

I would have my doubts of it doing very well.. They would need to gain a lot of trust from those that would shop there plus those that would have stores there as well as who knows if LL could come at them for any infringements or not..

It sounds like it would be more of a pain in the butt to really even get that off the ground.. But it would be interesting to see what would happen with it for sure..

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Phil Deakins]

41 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

They had to make drastic cuts because half the company went off on a Sansar flight of fantasy while we paid for it.

I said that LL had to drastically cut the workforce (sacked people), not that they set half the workforce to developing Sansar.

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Phil Deakins said:

I said that LL had to drastically cut the workforce (sacked people), not that they set half the workforce to developing Sansar.

They sacked everyone attached to Sansar. 

[Phil Deakins]

Oh, ok then. I was thinking of the time when they sacked I think a third of the workforce, long before Sansar got started.

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

It sounds like it would be more of a pain in the butt to really even get that off the ground.. But it would be interesting to see what would happen with it for sure..

Easier than you think.

First creator who isn't shy about streaming their process, has a patreon and doesn't trade in L$ at all, wins.

For just 5 real money a month, you get everything new they make.

[Scott Coleman]

Doesn't matter if you pay tier with L$ or not, the fee is included in the value of the L$ so even paying islands you are still paying the new 5%, the only thing it does is makes it more convenient not having to wait for L$ to sell to pay tier, so less planning on trying to make sure you have the cash when tier fees come due.

Not sure if this has already been said or not. 

[Ceka Cianci]

12 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's great if you're in the land business as this deletes the single biggest line item from the balance sheet and massively simplifies accounting and tax. Assets aren't assets if you can pay for them with in game tokens. This will have huge knock on ramifications for the L$ economy and how LL operate L$ supply and its value.

That would be why this has a 6 month beta period, not because they are working out the 'technical bugs'. This is open heart surgery with a spoon and anything can happen.

My money is on this pressuring LL to accelerate the L$'s gradual devaluation and lead to a further increase in Tilia's fees as they look to replace lost volume.

I couldn't see someone that cashes out, wanting to use the  in world option of paying for things like a sim.. Your assets are unseen in world, but if you are collecting money in world and cashing out, why would they give up the balancing of spending on expenses?

If I'm doing all my spending in world and only showing income coming out of the world.. I'm gonna have to find adjustments somewhere to get expenses to knock down my income..

I'm gonna use my yearly costs for my sim as my expense against my income coming out of the world.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Easier than you think.

First creator who isn't shy about streaming their process, has a patreon and doesn't trade in L$ at all, wins.

For just 5 real money a month, you get everything new they make.

Ya I can see individual creators doing something like that.. But I think it would be a pain for someone setting up a website for a one stop shop like the linden marketplace, which that's what I thought they were referring to..

[Adam Spark]

They have been saying for 5 years now that they plan to shift the overall costs of Second Life from a largely land selling model to more of a model based on fees. All this is is shifting money around, basically. You are paying less for land, more for other things like buying and selling. That land your store is sitting on is becoming cheaper, so yeah, you have to pay more for other things.

Creators are nothing without consumers. A benefit to consumers IS a benefit to creators. As more people want in Second Life and see it as affordable just to "play" and buy some land, creators have a bigger audience to target for sales. Take that as a potential win. And any potential win will cost you further investment. Thats business 101, folks. Creators are just hurting themselves by considering everyone else as a lesser class of user. The go getters, as somebody in this thread put it? There are plenty of go getters who would love to be able to afford land but cannot because the monthly fee has one too many digits to make sense of it.

Businesses never just slash prices. They might absorb some costs, but they ALWAYS shift money around in ways to make more money. Its why they stay afloat for as long as they do. We have no grid at all without decisions such as these.

I see this as generating more interest in SL, both from the perspective of gaining customers for businesses that exist, and getting more creators in the door as well. It might hurt a few creator pocketbooks up front, but I see this as a long term win for the grid as a whole as it makes entry so much easier for people. Make us spend as we grow rather than gouge us at the entry point. I've been saying this for over 10 years.

We all want SL to just become cheaper across the board. I would love to wake up tomorrow and find that every price has been slashed 50 percent. I feel it would make the Lab MORE money in the long run. I've (kinda) come to terms with the fact that that just does not work.

[Chery Amore]

It's just another discouragement for me. Almost on par as when they announced Premium Plus. I kept one Premium account then and dumped another over that. It had nothing to offer me. All the boosting and fanfare of something big is coming added to that discouragement. At least they didn't do that this time.
I only have a Premium account .. and a linden house. I do like to shop however and buy linden a couple times a month to cover my habits. I think it's time I learned to live within in my stipend only. This will mean less spending from this resident and probably no tipping. I don't know if I'm a normal user in secondlife but I'm sure I'm not the only one that will be deciding to spend less here. 

I don't get it. I keep waiting for them to announce something that will boost retention, engagement and new users. It's starting to feel like they are just sucking the place dry before it collapses. Trickle down? Yeah no, trickle out.

[Scott Coleman]

18 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Makes sense.

Private Regions only, so you can't use it on less than a Region - otherwise you're renting not owning. 1 Private Region max benefit per account. 

Idea: Each Alt can own their "own Region". Transfer funds to each Alt to pay for it. (There's no fee to transfer L$ to another user, Alt or not.)

When you also have to pay extra to be premium to have the privilege to pay with L$, you are paying more L$ because of the increased fee as well as the increased monthly fee to be premium, there really isn't a difference

[Charolotte Caxton]

If you cannot afford Second Life don't play Second Life. Why ***** about how much it costs? It is literally a free game.

[Love Zhaoying]

23 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

First creator who isn't shy about streaming their process, has a patreon and doesn't trade in L$ at all, wins.

Next, they'll find a way to prevent people from using Patreons.

Unless there ARE ways that are "allowed" to "buy things outside of L$"..

Otherwise: Buyer joins Patreon. Creator "gives" creation(s) to Buyer in-world as "rewards". No L$ trades hands. Boo-hoo for LL.

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Charolotte Caxton said:

If you cannot afford Second Life don't play Second Life. Why ***** about how much it costs? It is literally a free game.

Second Life is not just a game -- it is a community. A community of people who have invested heavily in a place they consider a type of second home. As such, they have a stake in what goes on here, and they care about the costs because managing such costs in the best way possible will insure Second Life continues into the future.

[Charolotte Caxton]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Second Life is not just a game -- it is a community. A community of people who have invested heavily in a place they consider a type of second home. As such, they have a stake in what goes on here, and they care about the costs because managing such costs in the best way possible will insure Second Life continues into the future.

I agree, I, too, have invested heavily into this. As such, I do not want my platform derided for making good financial choices. Thank you. I am seeing myself out of this conversation because I tend to get crazy, but thank you.

[Chic Aeon]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I was going in a different direction. Forcing payments to be in-world for land seems to me, bypasses Tillia. 

Yes agreed -- BUT if  it is ONLY Premium Plus  folks that get to bypass the fees and only for one full sim I would guess that to be a small percentage of the populous ---- look at the other end of the scale where the increased fees are. My guess is that definitely tips in Tilia's direction.  

 

Patch mentioned YEARS ago that LL was thinking about letting some current cost be paid in linden dollars. My ears were very perky because I no longer buy or sell lindens existing  completely inworld bypassing Tilia.   I thought and thought about that comment and couldn't see any up side to the move for LL.  Connecting that ability to pay to PPlus both cuts down the use of the perk and likely would increase the adoption of PPlus somewhat -- depending if it penciled out for that particular citizen.  There are apparently (from blog comments) a bunch of PPlus folks that will be jumping ship if those Belli houses don't arrive -- and maybe even if they do since they seem to feel they have been mislead.    

 

I thought it was a bad plan to opt in so early when the houses weren't even on the obvious horizon, but folks did because they REALLY wanted those 2048 houses.  The ability to bypass fees is good but if there were LL scales to measure the changes in  lost income versus new income  I would guess the the increase in money conversion fees would be much higher (and again would go into Tilia's bank account which from the newest partnership appeared to be the focus of the new folks. 

 

So something needed to LOOK GOOD to take away some of the focus of the price increase.  

I am not sure this will hurt creators more than the general public EXCEPT for the increase in fees for transferring dollars out to Paypal; that WILL make yet another cut in the profits for creators still making RL income here. Business is already very slow for many old time creators. At the same time I see a slew of "new folks" (they do appear to be new since their products aren't that great) coming onto the selling scene.    I am guessing that most of the new folks are having fun playing at owning stores and taking parts in events and that's a great thing. No problems there.

 

But the long time creators that I know are making less now than they used too. I personally don't know one that is making more. There must be some folks that are, but the shift to sale shopping where you can get previous items that were sometimes over a thousand lindens for 50 lindens has certainly impacted the commercial climate.  Many have slowed down creating, are making smaller and less complex things or just quitting altogether if they are still here.   The increase in transaction fees to "cash out" is just going to be one more thing to make some reassess.  

 

A little bit of smoke and mirrors here :D.    

 

[Love Zhaoying]

25 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

They have been saying for 5 years now that they plan to shift the overall costs of Second Life from a largely land selling model to more of a model based on fees. All this is is shifting money around, basically. You are paying less for land, more for other things like buying and selling. That land your store is sitting on is becoming cheaper, so yeah, you have to pay more for other things.

Creators are nothing without consumers. A benefit to consumers IS a benefit to creators. As more people want in Second Life and see it as affordable just to "play" and buy some land, creators have a bigger audience to target for sales. Take that as a potential win. And any potential win will cost you further investment. Thats business 101, folks. Creators are just hurting themselves by considering everyone else as a lesser class of user. The go getters, as somebody in this thread put it? There are plenty of go getters who would love to be able to afford land but cannot because the monthly fee has one too many digits to make sense of it.

Businesses never just slash prices. They might absorb some costs, but they ALWAYS shift money around in ways to make more money. Its why they stay afloat for as long as they do. We have no grid at all without decisions such as these.

I see this as generating more interest in SL, both from the perspective of gaining customers for businesses that exist, and getting more creators in the door as well. It might hurt a few creator pocketbooks up front, but I see this as a long term win for the grid as a whole as it makes entry so much easier for people. Make us spend as we grow rather than gouge us at the entry point. I've been saying this for over 10 years.

We all want SL to just become cheaper across the board. I would love to wake up tomorrow and find that every price has been slashed 50 percent. I feel it would make the Lab MORE money in the long run. I've (kinda) come to terms with the fact that that just does not work.

As technology improves, it becomes more "scalable".

If the technology (some of it very old) used by LL was more scalable, or could be made more scalable without massive funding by a third party (who would take control and ruin it for us all), that would be a nice utopia.  LL could attract more users at lower rates / cost per user, still make money, and grow.

Maybe someday as the minor incremental upgrades and improvements continue..

[Ceka Cianci]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Next, they'll find a way to prevent people from using Patreons.

Unless there ARE ways that are "allowed" to "buy things outside of L$"..

Otherwise: Buyer joins Patreon. Creator "gives" creation(s) to Buyer in-world as "rewards". No L$ trades hands. Boo-hoo for LL.

I just think of all the scams we already have that we try to avoid, then throwing something like that in there..

Not saying all will..I'm just saying it's opening another door for those that will see opportunity  to take advantage of others... Some even going as far as requiring your payment information and  just knowing some are gonna give it.. Then the forums getting those threads and LL getting  hit up to help and other things i really hate to think about happening..

If there is a way, there will be someone there to take advantage of it.