Music Club Peeve & A Bit of Overdue Ranting

[Rowan Amore]

46 minutes ago, Linda Reddevil said:

Everyone's an effing expert. Rowan and Silent can 100‰ attest to things because that's what they've read. Lol okay. 😂 👋 

It's simply a fact.  Due to a changing regulatory climate...

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

It's gotten worse. Now Live singers have dancers that are expected to be tipped for standing on a dance pad doing nothing behind the singer. Live singers have personal assistants, as well as a host, that the singer suggests we tip. Some clubs have put in "bands" that are now expected to be tipped.

There are tip jars that announce in chat how much a person has tipped. I absolutely REFUSE to tip any tip jar that has enabled this function. The only two people that need to know what I tipped is me and the person that I tipped. 

One club I've been to has announcements every 5 minutes in chat about tipping in addition to the DJ and host saying it. They even go as far as to say if you request a song you are EXPECTED to tip at a minimum of $L100.

I never tip the venue, ever. You should not be relying on tips to cover your costs of owning and running your sim. 

I would like to see a system where there is one tip jar for the DJ/Host/Venue.

[LilNosferatu]

1 minute ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

There are tip jars that announce in chat how much a person has tipped. I absolutely REFUSE to tip any tip jar that has enabled this function. The only two people that need to know what I tipped is me and the person that I tipped. 

Absolutely. If in RL you're getting up to leave a restaurant after you paid, and the waiter/waitress comes over to announce to the whole room how much you tipped, I'd feel so damn awkward lmao.

It feels like another way to pressure other club guests into tipping if they're seeing other people tip (and how much they tip). Also people may feel pressured to tip otherwise everyone will know they didn't. In a way, it's a fairly good group psychology tactic? But... not at all how it should be done. 😬

[Doris Johnsky]

Looking at it from a DJ's view:

1. I detest contests. They draw people whose only desire is to win a few L  then split. Most of the time they are AFK and not even listening to what I play.  I quit a job because a) they wanted every set to have a contest and b) the DJ/Host had to pay for it.

2. I agree that yapping about tips is annoying.  That's why we only do it once a set, toward the end. The host will remind people about the DJ and venue and I'll mention the host.

3. I always greet people as they come into the venue.  Either before or after the host.  I worked too long without a host that's just a habit. Having said that, I become irritated when I go to a club and no one greets me. Host OR DJ. I think that should be a given, and when I had a club it was a requirement. 

4. DJs voicing.  I don't and I have my reasons.  It doesn't bother me iif a DJ does HOWEVER, I've heard DJs blather on about BS that has nothing to do with the music or venue. Or they have a decidedly unpleasant voice.  . Not all voices are made for DJing.  The best voice DJs are the ones who keep it to a minimum. I go to clubs for the music, not to hear someone recite  their college thesis.

5. People who come for a 2 hour gig and NEVER tip.  As someone said for DJs this IS their SL job.  

6. As far as local chat, I participate all the time.  Granted I don't work a big club,  but I enjoy being a part of the conversation.

7. Requests. I do them. I don't like when DJs don't. I understand with long club EDM mixes this doesn't really work.  But if you're just playing random songs, granting a request is always fun for the guest in the club.  

 

As to the OP.  If you don't like tipping don't go.  Or just don't tip. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

As a DJ why are you working for tips only? The venue should be paying you a base salary. I know live singers charge as much as 4500L, and more,  to perform a gig + their tips. Why aren't DJ's getting at least a base salary of 500L-1000L from the venue. 

There is only ONE club in SL that I will tip each and every set and there are reasons why

1. She changes her set every single night and has a new theme each evening, 7 days a week. Now even if she has most of her sets in rez boxes she always adds a little here and there to make it unique to that particular theme that evening.

2. She very rarely cancels any set. Since 2012 she has only had to cancel a handful of sets and is always closed Christmas Day.  She is open 7pm-11pm SLT every night and from 10am-12n during the week for daytime sets.

3. The DJ's there are top notch DJ's and have been DJing at that venue for years

4. She takes pictures at almost every set and posts them on Facebook

5 She is the host/hostess/venue owner. Neither the DJ nor the venue EVER asks for tips...EVER, yet I bet 99% of people that go to her venue tip all the time

6. She makes everyone feel like family. So much so that the same people have been going to her venue night after night for years.

Any club that wants to be successful should follow what this club does. Does she make a profit? I have no idea but not once have I ever gotten the idea that she was doing it for anything other than her love of music and having fun in SL.  I imagine she finances most of it on her own because the venue set ups are truly extraordinary. 

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

4 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

My real-life husband was a DJ in real life and is still a DJ in SL. We have owned and operated clubs in SL with DJs and live music. 

Or did you miss the part where I said I agreed with everything else? 

I swear I am the only person left on this planet that actually reads word for word and doesn't just skimp skim. I know I am not but it sure feels that way at times like this.

My man does the same. He DJs in our RL bar and sometimes simulcast in world at a club. Sometimes he'll find a decent club to play that enjoys the music --- but many times other locations were one-offs or even walk-offs. 

As for the music we have a very large music library and lot of times we'll dig from the vault. Unlike many DJs, he doesn't play the same 20 songs over and over.  Want a country theme - done. Want a DR Demento theme - done. Our music mostly came from CD Pools and collections we bought from record shops that were closing and digitising them.

Things that annoy my man from certain clubs:

• One's that wants him to talk over the music. He don't do that. He limits the talking and let the songs tell their story.
• One that requires him to be on Freakbook to list sets. We won't touch FB with a 200 metre pole.
• Being asked to turn off the song titles. He refuses to do that as our license (SOCAN) requires those to be active. He actually got fired for that twice.
• Playing only short songs. Since we're also playing from the bar you will hear the 22 minute version of Rare Earth's Get Ready. It's also a great potty song!
• Being restricted from play obscure songs. If someone ask for one of those, he likes to surprise them.

When a club owner is interested in him, he does tell them he plays music from our bar and do expect limited bar banter, like half price on well drinks. But we'll sometimes put SL on a couple TVs for those at the bar to watch.

[Ceka Cianci]

I don't really pay too much attention to any spam going on.. I think over time my brain learned to filter club spam out.. It's probably because the first few years of my SL was spent in clubs mostly.. hehehe

I'm weathered for the storm I guess.

I'll usually send a round of tips to everyone and already have IM's going..

If I get IM's right away from dancers that are there after I just sent out a round of tips, I don't even answer those.. Because I've already said you're welcome in general chat and I'm already gonna send a round of tips out in a little bit, so there is no sense in IMing me afterwards to make it more personal than it was..

I used to dance and used to manage one of the biggest clubs in SL at the time.. I know the routine..

I wasn't fond of that kind of thing going on back then and not fond of it today.. In fact, when I managed the club, I didn't allow dancers to IM customers..

It was a big pet peeve of mine that would have them suspended if they got caught..If the customer IM'd them, that was fine, but not the other way around..

 

I'm gonna stop here before I get going down that road again.. hehehe

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Rat Luv]

4 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

There are tip jars that announce in chat how much a person has tipped. I absolutely REFUSE to tip any tip jar that has enabled this function. The only two people that need to know what I tipped is me and the person that I tipped. 

I agree, it's a bad feature. I remember someone who hosted in a rock club telling me about two dancers having a massive argument because one got tipped 500L and the other only got 200L, or something similar.  The only good purpose for that script is if you're doing a fundraiser event, then it can be quite exciting to see the amount go up over the night. 

 

[Eddy Vortex]

One good way to ensure that I will never return to a club is the host spamming ASCII images in local chat every 2 seconds.  If I have to mute them, they can forget about getting a tip from me.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Eddy Vortex

[Maitimo]

7 hours ago, Linda Reddevil said:

My point being that if enough people get tired and "whine" about something, then something will be done about it! LL didn't just wake up one day and decide to remove gachas. They did it because enough people complained about it being a violation of their own TOS. 

No they didn't. They removed gachas because new RL laws made them illegal. They were not a violation of the TOS until AFTER the ban took place.

 

[Alobar Valeska]

I've been an SL club owner and a DJ for going on 12 years, and I agree with just about everything you said. Now, in fairness, at this point in my SL life, my poor little club has only one set per week (me, because I just can't let go of the club, and I get to play whatever I want), and I do one other set a week at another venue (where I also play whatever I want, and the people seem to love it). I only play blues-rock, blues, and classic rock (in more or less that order). Hopefully, my love for and whatever "expertise" I have in those genres comes through -- you either love me, tolerate me, or tp the hell out after 2 or 3 songs  I've never understood DJs who can do 2 hour sets in any given genre, but some are quite successful at it.

It took me about 3 months to realize that an SL club will never pay for itself, let alone make any kind of profit. You own a club because you love it, you're bored and have nothing else to do with your money, or you have mental health issues (or all three).

I've known DJs who say they DJ in Second Life to supplement their real life income. For me, 1000 lindens for a 2 hour set has always been sort of the mark of a decent set. That's $US4. That would take a lot of sets to make a significant impact on your RL income. At my outside set, nowadays, I often draw 30-40 people and make 3 - 4K lindens per set -- that absolutely blows my mind. Good DJs don't play for the money - they play because they love the music and love playing the music they love for people that love it, too. For me, a tip is a sign of appreciation for the music. A kind word about the set and the music is often worth as much as a tip, too.

My host is my partner (or whatever we want to call her). We're a good team - we banter, we tease, we joke, and she's an integral part of the show. She watches the chat, and keeps me informed of requests and other comments I should be aware of while I'm not paying attention because I'm doing important DJ stuff. She makes visitors feel welcome, tells them where to find the dance balls, and tries to keep the conversation lively. Maybe 3 or 4 times during a 2 hour set, she'll remind people to tip the DJ and venue -- it's in chat, so easy enough to ignore, if it really bothers you. Maybe once or twice in a 2 hour set, I'll remind people during a voiceover that she has a tip jar, too -- that's easy enough to ignore, too. It does, however, often generate a few tips that we might not have received without those limited reminders -- you can't argue with success. I've worked with other hosts who do nothing more than spew gestures and beg for tips -- they're mostly a waste of time and bandwidth. I don't do that anymore. If you're at a set with a good host, tip them, dammit. The good ones work harder than the DJs.

Bottom line is, whether you're a DJ, a host, or a guest -- if you're not having fun, take it the hell home or go somewhere else. Or post a rant on the SL forums, if you feel like it

 

 

[Rat Luv]

39 minutes ago, Alobar Valeska said:

My host is my partner (or whatever we want to call her). We're a good team - we banter, we tease, we joke, and she's an integral part of the show.

Actually - I think this is one of the most important things...when the DJ and host get on well, or have a good chemistry, it makes it so much more fun and creates a more relaxed vibe 😎 IMO, club owners should spend more time making sure the DJ and host are a good match than worrying about where to put tip jars.

[Lucia Nightfire]

8 hours ago, LilNosferatu said:

Absolutely. If in RL you're getting up to leave a restaurant after you paid, and the waiter/waitress comes over to announce to the whole room how much you tipped, I'd feel so damn awkward lmao.

It feels like another way to pressure other club guests into tipping if they're seeing other people tip (and how much they tip). Also people may feel pressured to tip otherwise everyone will know they didn't. In a way, it's a fairly good group psychology tactic? But... not at all how it should be done. 😬

That is exactly the psychological aspect that mechanic relies on. Not only to try and "burden" others to tip, but to "burden" them to tip equal or higher amounts.

[Lucia Nightfire]

I know how to solve the problem.

All performers should wear full body tip jar avatars that have humanoid legs and arms. Maybe a lid that pops open whenever they talk.

I'm surprised no one sells one on MP.

[Conifer Dada]

I tip DJs quite often but I do agree about the begging, usually in the form of: "our DJ has been wonderful tonight, so don't forget to hit him/her up with some Linden lovin' ".  Presumably this would apply particularly if you've "jumped in their naughty box" to request a tune.  Having a host and a DJ means that the DJ doesn't have to beg for their own tips.  I would imagine it's not unknown for a host to be an alt of the DJ, so when you tip both, you're tipping the same RL person twice.  When you do pay a tip, the payment panel has suggested payment options, for example L$25, L$50 or LS100. That's fair enough but I've been to clubs where the lowest suggested amount is L$200.  Of course, you can choose your own amount but there's a strong hint carried by the minimum suggested tip.

Another annoying thing some DJs do is to taunt the guests, perhaps making fun of some of them or threatening to play cheesy tunes until enough people have entered a contest. 

And then there's the DJs who sing along (badly) to the tunes, which is not cool. The exception is one DJ who occasionally announces "I'm going to sing to this tune, I hope you don't mind." but she only does it very occasionally and she's quite a good singer! 

Finally, there are some DJs who are so bad they're actually entertaining. Then there are the mash-up merchants, who think playing two tunes at the same time is twice as good as playing one, which is rarely the case.

[Jaylinbridges]

42 minutes ago, Conifer Dada said:

Finally, there are some DJs who are so bad they're actually entertaining.

That must explain why the more technical mistakes I make, the higher my tips.  I no longer blame it on my cat jumping on the keyboard...

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

20 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

There are tip jars that announce in chat how much a person has tipped. I absolutely REFUSE to tip any tip jar that has enabled this function. The only two people that need to know what I tipped is me and the person that I tipped. 

One club I've been to has announcements every 5 minutes in chat about tipping in addition to the DJ and host saying it. They even go as far as to say if you request a song you are EXPECTED to tip at a minimum of $L100.

I never tip the venue, ever. You should not be relying on tips to cover your costs of owning and running your sim. 

I would like to see a system where there is one tip jar for the DJ/Host/Venue.

When I had my venue --- I tried to edit the jar to remove the tip amount but ended up borking the thing. Never trust me with scripting!  I had to pull out a back-up jar. About 2 months later I sold the club to someone and she stuck a critter type jar in the place. Her jar doesn't tell much was tipped and doesn't even display a running total. Like me she runs the place for fun and to apprecaite live music, not to try to make boatloads of Lindens.

[Jaylinbridges]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:11 PM, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

As a DJ why are you working for tips only? The venue should be paying you a base salary. I know live singers charge as much as 4500L, and more,  to perform a gig + their tips. Why aren't DJ's getting at least a base salary of 500L-1000L from the venue. 

Because there are no DJ unions in SL?  Most club owners would rather hire a DJ that relies only on tips, then pay one a salary. There is always a surplus of DJ's that will work at a club where the patrons tip generously.  Having 10 backup DJ's is common for an active club.  They are all looking for a permanent slot. 

Not all club owners can afford the $1000 - $2000 USD/month to run a club and pay Live singers and DJ's 24/7.  Those that can are retired with a generous retirement income, or have a RL job where $2000/mo for a hobby is peanuts to them.  They usually hire managers for everything, since their RL job takes up most of their time.

What annoys me the most?  Patrons that tip the Live performer, but refuse to tip the club venue that pays that 4500 L upfront to the performer.  When you see a Live artist, tip the club venue (owner) first.  The performer has already been paid.  Of course this does not apply  to DJ's - because we have no bargaining power in SL.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Jaylinbridges
3K -> 2K :)

[LilNosferatu]

2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

>Not all club owners can afford the $1000 - $3000 USD/month to run a club

>$2000/mo for a hobby

S-Say what...? Is that really how much people are paying to own clubs?! 😳 It seems like everyone and their uncle has their own.

[Nick0678]

17 minutes ago, LilNosferatu said:

S-Say what...? Is that really how much people are paying to own clubs?! 😳 It seems like everyone and their uncle has their own.

1000US$-3000US$ for an SL club?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA of course not.

[Katherine Heartsong]

6 hours ago, Conifer Dada said:

I tip DJs quite often but I do agree about the begging, usually in the form of: "our DJ has been wonderful tonight, so don't forget to hit him/her up with some Linden lovin' ".  Presumably this would apply particularly if you've "jumped in their naughty box" to request a tune. 

I know (and love) this club.  I heard that exact phrase just yesterday, in fact.

There are even popular places (one was mentioned by name earlier in the thread) where I agree that it's a bit over-the-top. I mean maybe once every 15 or 30 minutes reminder is good from the DJ or a hostess/concierge/greeter, but it's often way more excessive than that. Every song break, and every 5 minutes in Nearby chat. Plus yeah, stop the inane chatter DJs. Intro the songs, dedications, but stop chatting about your passion for person-xyz, or hobbies, or trying to start your new career in stand-up comedy, or what you had for dinner that evening. Honestly. I love one single DJ in one popular spot, she is amazing (and another who I've known outside SL) ... the rest run from simply okay through to annoying as sin.

But, weirdly enough, I'm still okay with that because I like the atmosphere in many places who do that so still hit some places I enjoy regardless.

What I dislike far more than frequently begging/reminders to tip, is the incessant gesture-spam in Nearby chat, especially the ones that make noises. There's one R&B club that plays great music, ruined every 10 seconds on popular night by people trying to outdo each other's gestures. Stop that crap, people!

Edited January 3, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

What I dislike far more than frequently begging/reminders to tip, is the incessant gesture-spam in Nearby chat, especially the ones that make noises. There's one R&B club that plays great music, ruined every 10 seconds on popular night by people trying to outdo each other's gestures. Stop that crap, people!

I really hate to say it but in my experience, it's often the R&B clubs or Soul clubs that are the worst offenders.  I stopped going to a couple for just that reason.  One, Anaconda, had been open for years.  The hosts constantly spamming chat, filling my entire screen with crap, just annoyed the hell out of me.  Why can't they actually TALK?  With words?  Followed by responses...with words.  

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Nick0678 said:

1000US$-3000US$ for an SL club?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA of course not

You didn't read what I said, but cherry picked something ignoring the context. 

IF - do you understand IF? -- a club paid every DJ $L1000/set, and they were a 24/7 club with maybe 2 hrs downtime - this will cost a club owner 10 x 1000 = 10,000 $L/day for DJ salaries.  That is 30 x 1000 = $L300,000/month or about $1,200 USD/mo just for DJ salaries.

If the club pays Live singers, who usually ask from 2000 to 8000 per performance, and has only 4 daily Live singers,  that is $L3000x4x30 = $L360,000/month = $1440 USD/month.  Most of these larger clubs have a full sim with shops and rentals (which seems to annoy some here as well).  Add in another $250/mo for land tier.  Now we are up to $1700/month.  So I will revise my cost estimate to $1000 to $2000 USD/month.  And since most here think you should never tip the venue, we can't subtract attempts by the club owner to reduce the cost by adding other business ventures around the club. 

This is why clubs don't pay DJ's, and instead run shoestring operations on a small parcel.  

BTW it is possible to break even with a good club, if you do all the things that the OP and most of you hate.  The club I work at has done that for 13 years. I don't think they need any advice from the cheapskates in this forum.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Nick0678]

1 minute ago, Jaylinbridges said:

You didn't read what I said, but cherry picked something ignoring the context. 

IF - do you understand IF? -- a club paid every DJ $L1000/set, and they were a 24/7 club with maybe 2 hrs downtime - this will cost a club owner 10 x 1000 = 10,000 $L/day for DJ salaries.  That is 30 x 1000 = $L300,000/month or about $1,200 USD/mo just for DJ salaries.

If the club pays Live singers, who usually ask from 2000 to 8000 per performance, and has only 4 daily Live singers,  that is $L3000x4x30 = $L360,000/month = $1440 USD/month.  Most of these larger clubs have a full sim with shops and rentals (which seems to annoy some here as well).  Add in another $250/mo for land tier.  Now we are up to $1700/month.  So I will revise my cost estimate to $1000 to $2000 USD/month.  And since most here think you should never tip the venue, we can't subtract attempts by the club owner to reduce the cost by adding other business ventures around the club. 

This is why clubs don't pay DJ's, and run shoestring operations on a small parcel.  

BTW it is possible to break even with a good club, if you do all the things that the OP and most of you hate.  The club I work at has done that for 13 years. I don't think they need any advice from the cheapskates in this forum.

 

Cool story bro, forwards reply  @LilNosferatu

[LilNosferatu]

2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

You didn't read what I said, but cherry picked something ignoring the context. 

Oof, not sure why you seem so aggressive lmao. I did read your post, but wasn't really interested in responding except to ask if the amount you stated was actually what people pay. I was genuinely curious about that, since you framed it as a statement rather than a hypothetical situation. Also your post wasn't even directed at me, I was just on the sidelines, I wasn't invested in the context. 🤷‍♀️