Music Club Peeve & A Bit of Overdue Ranting

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

I'll have to check it out then! No dress code as far as a theme goes?

No, not really. Some do dress in "period" outfits, but it's not a rule.

In general, people tend to be more "dressy" than not, but I've worn everything from gowns and flapper outfits to somewhat edgy club wear. I think I've seen pretty much everything there, and I don't think ever seen anyone asked to leave or change because of their dress.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Before I closed Noir

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, Lewis. I don't think I ever attended an event there, but I certainly knew the place: it was a lovely looking club!

[Lewis Luminos]

39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, Lewis. I don't think I ever attended an event there, but I certainly knew the place: it was a lovely looking club!

The club itself is still there, its just events that have stopped. Even so, I am still doing events on certain holidays. We had parties at Halloween and Christmas, there will be a Mardi Gras party at the end of next month.

[Sommerland Starostin]

Some DJs & hosts are more persistent about tip reminders then others, but that's the difference in people. For DJs, if I'm into your music you will usually get a tip. For hosts, if you are welcoming and have a good vibe, the same. If these things aren't happening, you can send out reminders till Kingdom come but no tip. But I have noticed people coming to the same club, with the same DJ/host, over and over, and never tipping. OK maybe you are poor, there's always that but never tipping, not even 50L or so? Maybe at least once in every blue moon lol.

[Aiyumei]

Crowded club with people still coming and the DJ cuts the music every 15 seconds to greet them... So NOT enjoyable. And the constant tip spamming too.

[Blush Bravin]

I do love live music in SL. I love dancing and socializing with those in attendance. What I don't like is all the gesture spam, "reminders" to tip, and publicizing of the amount of tips. Since I've been in SL a very long time and have been around the music scene a long time, I know how confusing the whole tipping thing can be.

For instance, I would like it to be publicized if the musician/DJ has already been paid a fee by the club owner. Likewise, if the performer is working purely for tips I'd like to know that as well. This knowledge affects who and how much I tip at the event. 

Also, it would be nice if we could just tip the performer and the venue owner. The performer should be responsible for paying their staff from their earnings. The venue owner if not doing the hosting then they too should be responsible for paying their staff from the venue profits. This would reduce the amount of reminders to tip the musician/DJ, venue, host, band, dancers, etc. 

Also, I don't really like the constant greetings to those arriving. It comes across as mechanical. There's nothing personal about it unless the person doing the greeting actually knows the person they are greeting. Granted some fans follow musicians/DJs frequently and are very well known by the staff. That comes across in the greeting but all too often it's just an empty welcome only said because it's the thing to do. 

The events I enjoy the most are those that are about the music and enjoying the company of those who are in attendance. More music and more real communication during the event and less gesture spam and begging please. And if you've had a good time and enjoyed the music tip, and tip big. Keep those kinds of events going by showing the performer and venue how much you enjoyed their efforts to provide you with a good time! And if you walk away thinking you've wasted an hour or two and won't go back, then perhaps send a respectful and courteous message to the venue owner explaining why you won't be back. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Blush Bravin

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Sommerland Starostin said:

Some DJs & hosts are more persistent about tip reminders then others, but that's the difference in people. For DJs, if I'm into your music you will usually get a tip. For hosts, if you are welcoming and have a good vibe, the same. If these things aren't happening, you can send out reminders till Kingdom come but no tip. But I have noticed people coming to the same club, with the same DJ/host, over and over, and never tipping. OK maybe you are poor, there's always that but never tipping, not even 50L or so? Maybe at least once in every blue moon lol.

Sure. As soon as I figure out how to buy things without an income in real life.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Aiyumei said:

Crowded club with people still coming and the DJ cuts the music every 15 seconds to greet them... So NOT enjoyable. And the constant tip spamming too.

DJs are not supposed to be greeting people. That's the host/hostess' job. It's fine to do it in IM while the mic isn't open.

[Sommerland Starostin]

DJ's CAN greet lol. When people state "not supposed to" I say who made you the authority. I like to get hellos from the DJ's, it's a "nice" thing, many have become good friends. Also, fine if people can't afford to tip. Good thing complaints are free.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Then we have hosts/hostest that will ban people sometimes for silly stuff.....

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Sommerland Starostin said:

DJ's CAN greet lol. When people state "not supposed to" I say who made you the authority. I like to get hellos from the DJ's, it's a "nice" thing, many have become good friends. Also, fine if people can't afford to tip. Good thing complaints are free.

I have a good friend who DJs regularly on Friday nights. He has no host to help him, and so he takes on those duties himself . . . and then some. He participates in open chat, telling stories and prompting people to tell theirs. And, because there are generally more women then men, he undertakes to dance for 20 or 30 mins each with the women who don't have dance partners, sort of rotating through the single women in the crowd. All this while managing the stream.

He doesn't get especially large crowds: 15 people would be a pretty "good" night, and that undoubtedly helps.

I go pretty much every Friday night. I am not, to be honest, into the music he plays at all, which tends to be "mellow" folk / soft jazz with, occasionally, a bizarrely Scandinavian inflection. (Finnish tango bands, and Swedish covers of the Beatles, and an abomination called "The Minnesota Tango," which he plays every show.) And I suspect that most of his regulars are not especially into the music either.

HE is the appeal: he works tirelessly to make the evening a fun communal experience. His efforts to ensure that all the single women get a dance, and his funny, kind, gentle chatter are what make the evening, because they transform the place from a dance floor full of individuals into a friendly community. And the result is that his regulars are very regular, know and like each other, and socialize outside of Friday nights.

It's not just about the music, and it's certainly not about the tips. It's about the community he's built.

[Madelaine McMasters]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

an abomination called "The Minnesota Tango"

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

 

WHYYYYYYYY?????

[Madelaine McMasters]

13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

WHYYYYYYYY?????

Would you prefer this?...

ETA: Or this?...

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Sommerland Starostin said:

DJ's CAN greet lol. When people state "not supposed to" I say who made you the authority. I like to get hellos from the DJ's, it's a "nice" thing, many have become good friends. Also, fine if people can't afford to tip. Good thing complaints are free.

I'm no authority but the man I'm married to in real life is. It's not a requirement and yes, it is nice, when the mic isn't open, and they aren't busy doing their job.

[colleen Criss]

The key to a good DJ is a good following. The key to a good club is a good following. These both take time to grow.  I worked as a hostess way back, 2008 gentle reminders to tip is fine but not repeated more then once and a hostess who keeps conversation flowing is awesome. 

[Amanda Crisp]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:40 AM, TaraSimone Sixpence said:

At the outset I am well aware that many here will disagree with me, some vehemently. This is your right to do so and I respect it. 

Having been in SL for many years, as a designer and scripter, for the past few years I have decided to follow my real love of music and dancing within SL. There are some very good clubs and DJ's out there and some really horrible ones. This is obviously a matter of music taste. However, since I am kind of a music freak and love SL dancing on my huds with my dance sequences, I visit clubs fairly often. When one does not like the DJ or the music you just TP out. It is simple, easy and that is that. (And i will say if the DJ's voice is not pleasing, it may be a good idea for the DJ not to talk at all and just use chat.)

Now, with all that being said, there has become an incredibly annoying habit and absolute turn-off at many of the clubs where the following is done:

1. DJ's remind people to tip the host and venue every other set of music (1,2,3 songs). 
2. Hosts remind people to tip the DJ and venue every 5 minutes.
3. Automated Messages go out every 10-15 minutes reminding people to tip.
4. "Help keep the lights on" has become a favorite line in almost all clubs.
5. DJ's telling people all they work for is Tips, is called "panhandling" in the real world and it is just that. And this line is often used at many clubs.

It has come to the point where all this is becoming ludicrous. I see nothing wrong with putting out tip jars and signs. That should be enough for people. Those who will tip - will do it. Those who will not tip, won't. Simple as all that. 

I have spoken to quite a few long-time friends in SL and I was surprised that they, almost all (will say 99%), agreed with me. As time goes on the situation is becoming impossible and also irksome to the extreme. Though you may not be aware of this - DJ's, Hosts & Club Owners - people TP away just because of this incessant begging!

Let us be clear here - and possibly brutal:

Club Owners:

1. Club owners - The cost of running your club is something you have taken on. This should have been calculated into your expenses. A designer who cannot sell clothing, closes down. A scripter who cannot sell their objects, closes. A builder from whom no one buys - closes. Or they stay open because they love doing it - no matter what losses they incur. Why are clubs different? Nothing legitimizes begging people to contribute to a club. And I will add most clubs in SL have seem to have gone into the "land business" as well. If you cannot make it - if your expenses are too much - then close. 
2. I once discussed this with a club owner. So I said to them "If you want to take money from people - then charge them to come in. Use a 24 hours pass (easily scripted), a huge group charge or whatever method you want." (I was obviously goading them into the answer I expected.) This came immediately: "If you charge people - no one will come." VOILA!!! So what is the genius work-around? Drive people crazy "begging" or trying to "guilt" them into tipping every 10 minutes? 
3. One other small point. A lot of lag in clubs is due to the incredible amount of scripted signs and objects dedicated to begging for tips.

DJ's:

1. No one is forcing. you to DJ. No one in SL is putting a gun to your head. If you want to DJ, then go for it. But that does not mean the public is expected to pay for your desire to DJ. 
2. Put out a tip jar (or use the clubs tip jar). If you cannot resist the urge, then mention it once or twice in a 2-hour set. No more. 
3. Telling people to also tip the host and venue - again that is just not only ludicrous - it is annoying as hell. 
4. A DJ has a computer system with their songs, usually a Stream, the SAM (as it is known) and that is that. I hate to say this so brutally, but it does not take a PhD to run these systems. DJ's by themselves have ample time to do all the hosting, greeting, playing that is needed.
5. But such systems cost money! Yes the do! So figure out if you can afford it before you begin. Don't rely on avatars to pay for your desire to DJ.

Hosts:

1. I am not sure why, how, or when "hosts" became mandatory.
2. However, I do understand many will disagree with the above point. So the Hosts are there - everywhere. Which in essence of the "panhandling" system doubles a tip once a visitor is guilted into it. It is a hidden "cover charge" if you want to put it into real terms. 
3. Hosts greet, make jokes (if they can), and dance. They try to keep conversations going. Wonderful! Until the 5-10 limit comes up and the begging for tips starts. Venue and DJ. "This DJ is working very hard for all of you....etc." "This club is the best! Help us stay open and keep the lights on!" Sound familiar? 

Bottom Line:

1. I tip only when I have come to know a DJ and/or Host and like their music and presentation. I, nor anyone else, needs to be reminded every 5 minutes to tip, or that someone is "working hard" or that "the lights need to be kept on" or that "you are only working for tips." Does a waiter come up to you in a restaurant, hands you the menu, and says, "Before I take your orders, please remember I am only working for tips."?
2. Under no conditions will I tip a venue. That is their choice, their responsibility, their expenses. If they are renting out land or other things, it makes it even more ludicrous. Maybe a course in Excel and rudimentary costs and expenses will help all the club owners - since what they want is to be on the top of the "numbers list" which they want me to pay for.
3. It is legitimate to "charge" for entertainment. But you know if you do so in SL, no one will pay. That should have been a consideration before you opened up your club. 

Please Stop:

1. Stop the never-ending begging for tips (and it is begging.)
2. Stop the lines about "keeping the lights on" and "I only work for tips".
3. Stop the incessant automated messages sent to chat by a scripted message system for people to tip.
4. Stop the mentions of how hard you are working. Most of the people listening work very hard for their money as well.

Please Do This:

1. Put out your tip jars.
2. Mention them once or twice in a normal 2-hour set (if you feel you absolutely must do so). Do not make them part of your normal conversations.
3. Hosts, do the same, since hosts are now a mainstay, and I doubt an argument for eliminating them will do any good.
4. Get rid of the "help keep the lights on" line or anything like it. It truly is disgusting and annoying.
5. Work hard, supply good music and people will tip you just as much without TP'ing away because they are just disgusted with the "panhandling."

Yes this is my rant after 13 years in SL. I love some of the clubs I visit. I love certain dance creators and very specific dance huds. Some DJ's are excellent. Some are horrible. Your choice. Your taste. But no one should be subjected to this constant panhandling or begging so often. It makes one just stay away from those clubs, and possibly SL in general.

--End of Rant--

Some thoughts from a DJ:

01..SL is global and for many residents, tipping is not a custom they encounter in RL so an occasional reminder that tipping allows the DJ to purchase new music and pay for the stream they are enjoying is probably a practical item. Reminding to Excess is an issue.

02..None of the venues I work at pay me. Its all tips and since I actively solicit requests (and therefore buy music to fill them - I don’t Rip) I generally always spend more to entertain than I make in tips.

03..I spam for tips for my host once an hour. Generally the Host does the same for me.

04..Nobody puts a gun to anyone’s head and makes them toggle their music on to listen to a DJ’s stream.

05..I am just as glad to get a 10L tip as a 500L gratuity. I appreciate that someone was having fun and thought  it was nice enough to tip for. Times are hard in RL and money does not come easy, so the thought definitely counts.

06..Moderation in all things is usually the best path 🙂

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

And there was one venue I went to long ago had a hostest would PM people that was in her club if they hadn't tipped and also put it in local chat saying "So far avi101 Resident, avi102 Resident, and so on" hasn't tipped us tonight. Let's encourage them as we need that Linden love!" When she PMed me I told her that sounded like someone on a street corner begging and was promptly banned. Glad to say that place is gone.

Another place I avoid is a long time running club who would PM you if you weren't dancing and would sometimes eject you. I went there a few times and once I got told "you need to dance or be removed, we want a lively experience here" and then got ejected, I never returned. Aren't clubs supposed to be fun --- not to toss people? Shocking that club is still around though.

[Alazarin Mondrian]

Eh, live music performer here. The few times I've played at other peoples' venues, I might get paid a little bit, maybe something extra in tips. If I like the venue and the people there, I'd probably play for nothing just because The biggest turn-off was the cliquey rat-race of the SL gig circuit... something that I'd hoped to get away from having dealt with that for a lifetime in RL. So I just set up my own venue playing my own stuff which is pretty niche with limited appeal to people and live stream it to YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Twitch so I guess the main use for SL for me is to create some visuals to go along with the music I play. Fortunately, I've got all my SL expenses covered so the fact that I make nothing isn't really an issue for me as I need to play regularly just to keep my chops up, practise and all that regular musician sorta stuff. At my age, it's the battle against the inevitable decline of muscle tone.

 

One thing I don't do is hustle for tips. Basically, I just can't be bothered. My worst SL habit is probably not engaging with the audience in chat but it's almost impossible while I'm playing and, because of the way I've set up my tip jar, I have no way of knowing if anyone has tipped me or, if they have, how much they've given me until I log into the SL website and check the transaction history. I do take a look at the list of names at the venue and, if I've got my glasses on, read out their names and welcome the new arrivals between numbers, but that's about it.

 

I get it that some people go into the whole SL club and music thing as a business proposition. It hurts seeing people getting bent out of shape when things don't work out financially. Expect nothing and then anything that comes your way is a step up, I guess.

 

As for DJ's, most of them just seem to have playlists and/or do requests which is OK as far as it goes. I've come across a few over the years who are very creative doing mashups and stuff using Traktor or Virtual DJ, but they're the rarity.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Alazarin Mondrian
thoughts.... thoughts....

[kali Wylder]

I had the good fortune to host at a venue and a DJ that did not push for tips. There were tip jars for the venue in the corners and the DJ and I had tip jars. My job was to make people feel at home, greeting and to help as needed ejecting troublemakers(which was rare) or answering questions.  And I made a good living hosting. Generally over $1,000 lindens per set, often twice that. I never asked for tips for myself or the DJ and I would make one informational announcement per 3 hour set letting people know where the venue tip jars were. 

I am in total agreement that being badgered to tip is unpleasant.  It's also counter productive. I think sometimes that less experienced hosts might ask for tips more often because they don't know what else to say. I never had that problem, I'm a bit of a chatterbox. 

Good clubs do rely on people tipping to keep them going.  DJs and hosts are not paid.  Rents in SL are high. Breaking even is the most club owners can hope for, nobody runs a club to make money. But asking for tips is not entertaining. And people don't come back if they are not entertained.  Even if the music is good, the atmosphere needs to be good too.

 

[kali Wylder]

On 1/28/2022 at 5:11 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I have a feeling that you're on European time, so this might not work . . . but The Mercury Room does wonderful vintage jazz on Sunday nights, starting around 7pm or 8pm SLT. Lovely people, LOTS of open chatter (mostly interesting and intelligent), no gesture spam, no begging for tips. Just really calm and relaxing and friendly, with great music and a 30s ambience. And @Solar Legion, anthropomorphic avatars are entirely welcome. (There are animated penguins skating around on the dance floor, as well a large stuffed moose and a bear. Oh, and Bernie Sanders.)

Or, for more modern music in a variety of genres, try The Velvet. Again, lots of chatter, really friendly people, no begging for tips or gesture spam. They have stuff going on most late afternoons / evenings SL time.

Did The Velvet re-open?  I used to love the music there. I was sad when they closed.

Edited February 1, 2022 by kali Wylder

[Scylla Rhiadra]

43 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

Did The Velvet re-open?  I used to love the music there. I was sad when they closed.

Yes! And it has a really busy and very eclectic schedule of DJ sets, pretty much every night of the week I think. It's not "packed" in the way that Fogbound is, but it's pretty popular, and it's a good, friendly, chatty crowd whenever I'm there. The selection of music is pretty eclectic too.

When did it close? I started going there in 2013 -- and then again when I came back at the end of 2018.

[Evah Baxton]

I love club promoters, producers, and DJ's that put effort into their sets. It's amazing to me. I could never do it. I figure, it's as much as I would have spent on drinks for a Saturday night... Why not?

[Amanda Crisp]

Hopefully this is not Necroposting, but my situation has evolved since I replied last week and I thought it might be of interest to those with concerns about Club Staff in SL.

To whit; Guests who “Game” contests very nearly convinced me to hang up my headset and make SL photography my hobby after doing the DJ thing for not-a-few years.

As was mentioned previously, many DJs put up 1000-2000 lindens per contest, lease a stream to pipe music into SL, buy music and maintain a wardrobe to perform in (especially for Themed contests). Right now I do 3 events a week; so you see how it adds up.

So, enter the Alts….

They show up, enter the contest and vote so that their Puppetmaster wins. This greatly annoys genuine guests who are there to also socialize. The Alts do NOT tip and effectively de~incentivize the regulars, meaning that revenue goes away as well.

Over time, many efforts to -prevent what is essentially Cheating from taking place. Some are technical, some are behavioral and none of them work terribly well because the Regulars get less staff attention while the Alt Policing takes place.

I don’t DJ to be the Contest Police 🙂 I DJ because I love music and socializing …

I’m looking at an alternate format to keep DJing without the frustration of the contest gamers ( contestants are fine; the people who try to game the system however are an issue)

Anyway, not complaining really, just providing real look at the inside of how events are run, financed and the challenges of doing that even if profit is NOT the goal.

Even in a virtual world, people are people and not all people like to play fair.

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Amanda Crisp

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

^^^ Why some clubs stopped doing contests.