Music Club Peeve & A Bit of Overdue Ranting

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

At the outset I am well aware that many here will disagree with me, some vehemently. This is your right to do so and I respect it. 

Having been in SL for many years, as a designer and scripter, for the past few years I have decided to follow my real love of music and dancing within SL. There are some very good clubs and DJ's out there and some really horrible ones. This is obviously a matter of music taste. However, since I am kind of a music freak and love SL dancing on my huds with my dance sequences, I visit clubs fairly often. When one does not like the DJ or the music you just TP out. It is simple, easy and that is that. (And i will say if the DJ's voice is not pleasing, it may be a good idea for the DJ not to talk at all and just use chat.)

Now, with all that being said, there has become an incredibly annoying habit and absolute turn-off at many of the clubs where the following is done:

1. DJ's remind people to tip the host and venue every other set of music (1,2,3 songs). 
2. Hosts remind people to tip the DJ and venue every 5 minutes.
3. Automated Messages go out every 10-15 minutes reminding people to tip.
4. "Help keep the lights on" has become a favorite line in almost all clubs.
5. DJ's telling people all they work for is Tips, is called "panhandling" in the real world and it is just that. And this line is often used at many clubs.

It has come to the point where all this is becoming ludicrous. I see nothing wrong with putting out tip jars and signs. That should be enough for people. Those who will tip - will do it. Those who will not tip, won't. Simple as all that. 

I have spoken to quite a few long-time friends in SL and I was surprised that they, almost all (will say 99%), agreed with me. As time goes on the situation is becoming impossible and also irksome to the extreme. Though you may not be aware of this - DJ's, Hosts & Club Owners - people TP away just because of this incessant begging!

Let us be clear here - and possibly brutal:

Club Owners:

1. Club owners - The cost of running your club is something you have taken on. This should have been calculated into your expenses. A designer who cannot sell clothing, closes down. A scripter who cannot sell their objects, closes. A builder from whom no one buys - closes. Or they stay open because they love doing it - no matter what losses they incur. Why are clubs different? Nothing legitimizes begging people to contribute to a club. And I will add most clubs in SL have seem to have gone into the "land business" as well. If you cannot make it - if your expenses are too much - then close. 
2. I once discussed this with a club owner. So I said to them "If you want to take money from people - then charge them to come in. Use a 24 hours pass (easily scripted), a huge group charge or whatever method you want." (I was obviously goading them into the answer I expected.) This came immediately: "If you charge people - no one will come." VOILA!!! So what is the genius work-around? Drive people crazy "begging" or trying to "guilt" them into tipping every 10 minutes? 
3. One other small point. A lot of lag in clubs is due to the incredible amount of scripted signs and objects dedicated to begging for tips.

DJ's:

1. No one is forcing. you to DJ. No one in SL is putting a gun to your head. If you want to DJ, then go for it. But that does not mean the public is expected to pay for your desire to DJ. 
2. Put out a tip jar (or use the clubs tip jar). If you cannot resist the urge, then mention it once or twice in a 2-hour set. No more. 
3. Telling people to also tip the host and venue - again that is just not only ludicrous - it is annoying as hell. 
4. A DJ has a computer system with their songs, usually a Stream, the SAM (as it is known) and that is that. I hate to say this so brutally, but it does not take a PhD to run these systems. DJ's by themselves have ample time to do all the hosting, greeting, playing that is needed.
5. But such systems cost money! Yes the do! So figure out if you can afford it before you begin. Don't rely on avatars to pay for your desire to DJ.

Hosts:

1. I am not sure why, how, or when "hosts" became mandatory.
2. However, I do understand many will disagree with the above point. So the Hosts are there - everywhere. Which in essence of the "panhandling" system doubles a tip once a visitor is guilted into it. It is a hidden "cover charge" if you want to put it into real terms. 
3. Hosts greet, make jokes (if they can), and dance. They try to keep conversations going. Wonderful! Until the 5-10 limit comes up and the begging for tips starts. Venue and DJ. "This DJ is working very hard for all of you....etc." "This club is the best! Help us stay open and keep the lights on!" Sound familiar? 

Bottom Line:

1. I tip only when I have come to know a DJ and/or Host and like their music and presentation. I, nor anyone else, needs to be reminded every 5 minutes to tip, or that someone is "working hard" or that "the lights need to be kept on" or that "you are only working for tips." Does a waiter come up to you in a restaurant, hands you the menu, and says, "Before I take your orders, please remember I am only working for tips."?
2. Under no conditions will I tip a venue. That is their choice, their responsibility, their expenses. If they are renting out land or other things, it makes it even more ludicrous. Maybe a course in Excel and rudimentary costs and expenses will help all the club owners - since what they want is to be on the top of the "numbers list" which they want me to pay for.
3. It is legitimate to "charge" for entertainment. But you know if you do so in SL, no one will pay. That should have been a consideration before you opened up your club. 

Please Stop:

1. Stop the never-ending begging for tips (and it is begging.)
2. Stop the lines about "keeping the lights on" and "I only work for tips".
3. Stop the incessant automated messages sent to chat by a scripted message system for people to tip.
4. Stop the mentions of how hard you are working. Most of the people listening work very hard for their money as well.

Please Do This:

1. Put out your tip jars.
2. Mention them once or twice in a normal 2-hour set (if you feel you absolutely must do so). Do not make them part of your normal conversations.
3. Hosts, do the same, since hosts are now a mainstay, and I doubt an argument for eliminating them will do any good.
4. Get rid of the "help keep the lights on" line or anything like it. It truly is disgusting and annoying.
5. Work hard, supply good music and people will tip you just as much without TP'ing away because they are just disgusted with the "panhandling."

Yes this is my rant after 13 years in SL. I love some of the clubs I visit. I love certain dance creators and very specific dance huds. Some DJ's are excellent. Some are horrible. Your choice. Your taste. But no one should be subjected to this constant panhandling or begging so often. It makes one just stay away from those clubs, and possibly SL in general.

--End of Rant--

Edited January 2, 2022 by TaraSimone Sixpence

[LilNosferatu]

While I've only been around SL for a few months, and popped in and out of clubs every so often, I've definitely noticed the constant reminders for tips. I don't think it's ever driven me away from a club personally, but I also get bored of clubs after a few songs unless they all happen to be my absolute favorites and then I'll just AFK and listen to the music while I'm tabbed out and browsing Twitter or whatever -- even then, the break in between every 3 songs to tell everyone to tip the wonderful host/hostess and help keep the lights on does get a bit annoying and superfluous... like, I'm pretty sure you're talking to the same group of people that was here 5-10 minutes ago? 😅

So, I definitely get it. Maybe tip reminders from the DJ should be like a "top of the hour" kind of thing, in addition to either the host or item script putting a text reminder in chat once every 1-2 hours. I feel like that would be a lot less spammy and beggy, and like you said the people who will tip, will tip anyways. I also agree that having both a DJ and a host seems a bit unnecessary. It's nice to have both, especially if it's a really entertaining host that knows how to keep conversation and interaction going (and not just spam *~*TUNEEZZZ*~* chat gestures every 2 minutes) but if a club is struggling to make profits, they could definitely just go for a DJ who can greet people and interact in chat.

Tips and donations are great, but no business or employee should ever actively ask or beg for them and I feel like the best way to solicit tips from guests is to provide value. Be a charismatic, outgoing host who can make jokes and banter with everyone, and I'm sure the tips come in -- but unfortunately most of the hosts I've come across just spam "welcome" gestures and add the person's name onto the end of it, then spam tip reminders and vote reminders, then spam schedules or ads for upcoming events, then cycle back to tips and votes. There's only a handful of clubs I've gone to where the local chat is active and friendly, and those are the ones I'd rather tip, tbh.

[belindacarson]

By any chance were you ejected from several venues before posting this rather pointless whine?

 

That's what this reads like.

 

 

If you don't like how places are ran, go elsewhere or open your own.

[Rat Luv]

I agree with most of this, but I think it depends which clubs you go to – the big ones that run contests and are obsessed with traffic will be more like this than smaller places where people DJ and turn up because they love the music. My advice is: any money you make is a bonus, and if you’re not enthusiastic about the music or club, don’t bother starting or working at one, because it’s very hard to fake!

When I was hosting at one place, I think I did two ‘tip the DJ’ announcements each set (one in each hour). Every 5-10 minutes is ridiculous  I don’t think it even works…DJs are more likely to get tipped without asking for playing requests or for playing a tune that someone really loves. It wouldn't annoy me enough to TP out, but it does make me cringe a bit...years ago I went to one SL club where it was just me, the DJ and the host, and the host's first words to me were "Don't forget to tip the venue" 

[Maitimo]

Once an hour is enough. Any more than that and I am far less likely to tip at all, much less visit again. But this is not a new problem. People were complaining about the exact same thing in 2010.

[Linda Reddevil]

I agree that it is annoying and I, too, have no idea when the host thing started and I've been in SL for over 15 years. However, your well thought-out and written opinion will be served better by exposing it to the owners, DJs and hosts rather than here or you'll get more people like BelindaCarson above, commenting in the same way. Btw, Belinda, what she wrote isn't a pointless whine. I'm sure many made pointless whines about Gachas too, according to you, until something was done about it. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Linda Reddevil
Punctuation

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Linda Reddevil said:

I agree that it is annoying and I, too, have no idea when the host thing started and I've been in SL for over 15 years.

I'm sure many made pointless whines about Gachas too, according to you, until something was done about it. 

There have been hosts around since I started 12+ years ago.  The club I went to back then had hosts AND security along with the dj.  All with tip jars.

LL did not remove gachas because people whined about them.  People have whined about clubs/djs/hosts begging for money since forever.  It's not as if LL can stop that and club owners sure won't.  

[Linda Reddevil]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

LL did not remove gachas because people whined about them.  People have whined about clubs/djs/hosts begging for money since forever.  It's not as if LL can stop that and club owners sure won't.  

My point being that if enough people get tired and "whine" about something, then something will be done about it! LL didn't just wake up one day and decide to remove gachas. They did it because enough people complained about it being a violation of their own TOS.  Also, I hadn't meant that LL would do anything about clubs but rather the club owners would. 

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Linda Reddevil said:

They did it because enough people complained about it being a violation of their own TOS

No, they didn't.  There is an LL blog post explaining their reason.

People have complained about clubs doing the begging for literally years.  The only recourse is to not go to those clubs.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

But please please don't forget to tip all the jars! Think of the poor jars!

I don't even notice the begging for tips too much. Or maybe it's gotten worse, because I stopped visiting clubs long ago. To me, much worse is what the average music club in SL looks like. It's like a blast from the past, 2006-ish, or earlier. Not a pleasant thing at all, being surrounded by all those bright Roblox-style decorations the whole time. It's like visiting a Las Vegas casino on a bad acid trip. With the exception of clubs playing indie music. Those tend to be more hip.

Maybe the majority of club-owners and goers just don't like change?

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 hours ago, TaraSimone Sixpence said:

DJ's telling people all they work for is Tips, is called "panhandling" in the real world and it is just that. And this line is often used at many clubs.

It's not a line. It's the truth. Many DJs do not get paid by the venue; they only take away what they get in tips. The rest I more or less agree with but good luck with staying in business long enough getting any real changes accomplished. 

Signed,

And ex club owner/hostess/stage manager/etc.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Maitimo said:

Once an hour is enough. Any more than that and I am far less likely to tip at all, much less visit again. But this is not a new problem. People were complaining about the exact same thing in 2010.

They were complaining about it in 2004.

[Silent Mistwalker]

27 minutes ago, Linda Reddevil said:

My point being that if enough people get tired and "whine" about something, then something will be done about it! LL didn't just wake up one day and decide to remove gachas. They did it because enough people complained about it being a violation of their own TOS.  Also, I hadn't meant that LL would do anything about clubs but rather the club owners would. 

LL removed gachas because of the turbulent atmosphere surrounding the legality of gambling. Yes, gachas are a form of gambling no matter how loud the addicted scream it isn't.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Nick0678]

I rarely pay attention to local chat so never bothered me. They can ask for Tips as much as they like but not gonna get any from me for playing an online game.

[Bree Giffen]

Maybe constant badgering for tips is the most effective way to maximize earnings? The suggested passive tip methods may not be as effective. An audience of annoyed paying patrons is preferable over an audience of happy non-paying patrons.

What else can a SL club owner do? They definitely can’t sell alcohol.  Maybe they can offer upgrades to the club experience where making a donation to the club actually has a tangible benefit. For example, 1.  A perk system where a small donation gets you closer to the stage or puts you on a private dance platform. 2.  If you pay the DJ’s tip jar it briefly lets you climb onto the stage and make some special dance moves. 3. Every tip makes actual bottles appear at your table, the table has your name cause you paid for it, to show everyone else your wealthy patronage. 4. A donation turns the dance floor lights pink. 5. A donation makes the DJ walk over and drink with you.

I could think of many other things that could be added. The donations should be relatively small but the earnings would add up if a person tries out everything the club offers or if many people try out a few things. 

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

13 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

It's not a line. It's the truth. Many DJs do not get paid by the venue; they only take away what they get in tips. The rest I more or less agree with but good luck with staying in business long enough getting any real changes accomplished. 

Signed,

And ex club owner/hostess/stage manager/etc.

I enjoy and will continue to enjoy the responses. My point to the above statement, is that it is not the problem nor responsibility of the club visitor to make sure the DJ, Host or club are given recompense for what they are doing. A DJ does their work, ostensibly because they love music and are good entertainers. The club opened for whatever reasons they had. If one wishes to contribute to these endeavors, by way of tips, then all the power to them. Let them do so. However, no one has to hear about the fact that a DJ lives only on their tips. Who cares? It is, no matter how you look at it, IMHO, a form of begging-guilt tripping people. When I play Pink on Spotify, she gets a cut of the profits. Economics 101. (Anyone remember the Taylor Swift letter "Dear Apple" which managed to disrupt the whole industry and even the mighty Apple bent a knee.) In SL the DJ's do not have such a claim. They are simply streaming music. And yes, it is that simple. The point is - they choose to be DJ's. I choose to go the club. They have a Tip Jar out. That is enough. I want to tip, I will. I don't want to tip, I really do not need to hear about tipping every 5 minutes. It turns what could be a nice time and great experience for SL time into an endless stream of begging-host hud messages-reminders - all destroying the very experience a club wants to create.

And yes, to the others who mentioned this, people have been complaining about this behavior for years. No doubt about it. I just think it has reached new and obnoxious levels. That was all.

As to the individual who called the post - "whining" - she is entitled to her opinion and entitled to be respected for her opinion. My answer to the whining comment is simply - "Whatever".

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

Just now, TaraSimone Sixpence said:

I enjoy and will continue to enjoy the responses. My point to the above statement, is that it is not the problem nor responsibility of the club visitor to make sure the DJ, Host or club are given recompense for what they are doing. A DJ does their work, ostensibly because they love music and are good entertainers. The club opened for whatever reasons they had. If one wishes to contribute to these endeavors, by way of tips, then all the power to them. Let them do so. However, no one has to hear about the fact that a DJ lives only on their tips. Who cares? It is, no matter how you look at it, IMHO, a form of begging-guilt tripping people. When I play Pink on Spotify, she gets a cut of the profits. Economics 101. (Anyone remember the Taylor Swift letter "Dear Apple" which managed to disrupt the whole industry and even the mighty Apple bent a knee.) In SL the DJ's do not have such a claim. They are simply streaming music. And yes, it is that simple. The point is - they choose to be DJ's. I choose to go the club. They have a Tip Jar out. That is enough. I want to tip, I will. I don't want to tip, I really do not need to hear about tipping every 5 minutes. It turns what could be a nice time and great experience for SL time into an endless stream of begging-host hud messages-reminders - all destroying the very experience a club wants to create.

And yes, to the others who mentioned this, people have been complaining about this behavior for years. No doubt about it. I just think it has reached new and obnoxious levels. That was all.

As to the individual who called the post - "whining" - she is entitled to her opinion and entitled to be respected for her opinion. My answer to the whining comment is simply - "Whatever".

 

My real-life husband was a DJ in real life and is still a DJ in SL. We have owned and operated clubs in SL with DJs and live music. 

Or did you miss the part where I said I agreed with everything else? 

I swear I am the only person left on this planet that actually reads word for word and doesn't just skimp skim. I know I am not but it sure feels that way at times like this.

[Hunny Bunny]

Most "DJs" I hear are akin to a Spotify playlist, they select a set of prerecorded songs and let them play and occasionally inject a few requests. The "hosts" don't really do much to spur any chat but instead spam gestures as do the other 5-10 people in the crowd who also "work" there. 

6 hours ago, belindacarson said:

If you don't like how places are ran, go elsewhere or open your own.

I'm fairly certain that 99% of these clubs out there that follow the exact same formula were people who didn't like it, went elsewhere and opened their own club. That's why there's hundreds of them scattered all over the grid with just the handful of people in them that "work" there.

13 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

What else can a SL club owner do?

There's nothing they can do. Do it for the love of doing it as so many creators have and it becomes it's own reward. If you're doing it to make money just stop because you're not. I think some of the best DJs did not get to be where they are overnight, they have talent or they have friends that have helped get them there. The best thing a club owner can do is be involved like a bartender. Talk to the people that show up at your place and stand alone and silent in the corner they're probably there to meet people. Too many times I see a place that could have 10-15 regulars, of that 4-5 are "employees" and it's one big clique. When new people show up they exchange hellos and continue talking amongst their friends about things that someone outside the circle know nothing about.

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

My real-life husband was a DJ in real life and is still a DJ in SL. We have owned and operated clubs in SL with DJs and live music. 

Or did you miss the part where I said I agreed with everything else? 

I swear I am the only person left on this planet that actually reads word for word and doesn't just skimp skim. I know I am not but it sure feels that way at times like this.

Silent Mistwalker - I do apologize. I did read what you wrote, word for word. I assume that the tips are the major source of "income" for the DJ's. However, I am also assuming it is done out of love of music and entertainment. Perhaps my wording was wrong. For that I do apologize. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, TaraSimone Sixpence said:

Silent Mistwalker - I do apologize. I did read what you wrote, word for word. I assume that the tips are the major source of "income" for the DJ's. However, I am also assuming it is done out of love of music and entertainment. Perhaps my wording was wrong. For that I do apologize. 

For some tips are a major source because many venues do not pay a wage or salary.

It is done out of love for music, not even real life DJs get paid a decent wage in the US and they never work full time. It's all part time until you get into management and then you aren't on the airways anymore. DJs do it out of love of music, not money. Not all DJs can be Howard Sterns.

Apology accepted. All I ask is that before jumping to conclusions, talk to the DJs, hostesses etc and find out the truth from them. 

[Annie Nova]

*

Edited January 3, 2022 by Annie Nova
edited to add

[Silent Mistwalker]

I've also worked as waitress and dancer in bars and clubs in RL, so I have that knowledge and experience as well.

[LilNosferatu]

What we need is a "Bar Rescue" series, but for clubs in Second Life. I'd watch the hell out of that, tbh.

[Lindal Kidd]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

A donation turns the dance floor lights pink.

Bree's suggestions sound great!  The tip jars at Caledon Oxbridge University work like this, on a small scale. A little tip makes the jar (a big gold coin, actually) spin. A bigger donation gets a faster spin. Bigger still, and the coin starts to glow. A really large donation will set it on fire, a real light show.

While the OP's feelings are shared by many people, the fact is that a lot of the Second Life service economy is tip-based. This is so deeply embedded in our culture that, as she herself points out, nobody will come to a place that charges for it, with a land pass or a high group join fee. The only exception I know about is Frank's, which was such a well-known and popular ballroom that they were able to successfully charge a big fee for becoming a member of their "Elite" group.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 minutes ago, LilNosferatu said:

What we need is a "Bar Rescue" series, but for clubs in Second Life. I'd watch the hell out of that, tbh.

I would too!