New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rosekin1982]

2 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

So you'd argue that a slot machine that always returns at least one coin is not gambling because you always guaranteed a "win"?

Gacha machines do not do this. If you are playing a Gacha and do not feel that every item in it are worth the pull price, well, to put it nicely that is on you. I have never seen a gacha were the commons items were not worth the pull prize. Maybe it is not an item I want, or a color I want, but it was still worth the price of the pull.

[Kennylex Luckless]

There may be two alternatives then "gacha" is seen as a "chance-based outcome", the first one is to give all gacha users one product that is worth the price, like the vendor can sell "Gastronomical activated broccoli flashlight" for $5L and then "as a bonus" give a free random toy or gift, the other way is to make it work as in a carnivals where most things is a scam but where it is a sliver of chance to alter the chance with very high skills.

And keep in mind to not blame Linden Lab, this is for sure due to laws in what some call "the Real World".

[Kyrah Abattoir]

13 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Yes, and that's not the height of scummy scripting either. I had an acquintance who made gacha scripts. These included features such as "make it impossible to get the ultra rare before X number of rolls" to guarantee a definite minimum payout, said bias towards duplicates, and features such as getting a guaranteed early but low desirability rare to get the buyer to spend more trying to get the one they actually want later... which wouldn't appear for quite a while because the odds lower after the first one.

And so on. It's all black box scripts, nobody knows what they do. We can probably assume most sellers were honest, though... I hope.

This is actually a very common and legal mechanic on modern slot machines, they won't manipulate the odds (that would be illegal), but because the spinners are completely electronically controlled, they tend to display "near misses", such as having rolled the big jackpot on all spinners but one.

People then believe their "luck" is about to hit and keep playing.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Sukubia Scarmon]

7 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Yes, and that's not the height of scummy scripting either. I had an acquintance who made gacha scripts. These included features such as "make it impossible to get the ultra rare before X number of rolls" to guarantee a definite minimum payout, said bias towards duplicates, and features such as getting a guaranteed early but low desirability rare to get the buyer to spend more trying to get the one they actually want later... which wouldn't appear for quite a while because the odds lower after the first one.

And so on. It's all black box scripts, nobody knows what they do. We can probably assume most sellers were honest, though... I hope.

I was pretty speechless for a moment here, and not only because I just stuffed my cake-hole with a salad (not made out of cake, sadly). Yeah, I cease to have any sympathy with anyone defending that crapfest now. In general talking. I do believe there are honest and fair gachas and their creators out there, but sadly, I cannot assume they're the majority. Seen too much of people. I wish desperately for being wrong about it, tho.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

1 minute ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

I was pretty speechless for a moment here, and not only because I just stuffed my cake-hole with a salad (not made out of cake, sadly). Yeah, I cease to have any sympathy with anyone defending that crapfest now. In general talking. I do believe there are honest and fair gachas and their creators out there, but sadly, I cannot assume they're the majority. Seen too much of people. I wish desperately for being wrong about it, tho.

That's also why anything like gambling & gacha is fairly strictly regulated. And also why fun fair games rarely have anything to do with skill and everything to do with the payout rate the machine has been configured for.

[Prokofy Neva]

8 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

yes you are right. I should have linked the Apple case. The lootbox is gambling argument is also being pursued in California against Google and EA in separate class action lawsuits also. And I think that argument is doomed as well given the Apple case outcome

altho to be fair to the Apple case plaintiffs the judge in that case gave them leave to appeal the decision, even tho the judge said they didn't see any merit in appealing given the plain textual reading of the statute

This could all be very different. LL could be fighting it along with Apple, even tacitly, rather than pre-emptively bowing to it. SL doesn't have children, there are no irate parents, and there are no game features that require loot to advance in them. On this and other counts LL could have objected.

Instead, we see this curious caving and a rage from the user base to browbeat and harass anyone who objects to it or merely expresses fear and sorrow that it will harm them greatly. I really hate that. I'm used to the forums regulars being supine and being fanboyz but usually they show a little starch on things like higher cash-out. This is a far greater impact on the economy than the banning of third-party currencies (the GOMing of SL); than VAT, which affects only Europeans (and real businesses can declare expenses and get it removed from their income taxes); than the anti-banking and anti-gambling moves, as most people didn't bank or gamble. But everybody buys gatchas. I'm simply not convinced that any of this is necessary, and the speed with which it is being deployed is necessary.

[Prokofy Neva]

11 minutes ago, Kennylex Luckless said:

There may be two alternatives then "gacha" is seen as a "chance-based outcome", the first one is to give all gacha users one product that is worth the price, like the vendor can sell "Gastronomical activated broccoli flashlight" for $5L and then "as a bonus" give a free random toy or gift, the other way is to make it work as in a carnivals where most things is a scam but where it is a sliver of chance to alter the chance with very high skills.

And keep in mind to not blame Linden Lab, this is for sure due to laws in what some call "the Real World".

As much as you are ridiculing all this, this is exactly how it should be done, and how it would remain in compliance.

[Innula Zenovka]

31 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

How is that LL is more timid and less progressive than Apple?

Two very different companies of different sizes with different markets, business models and priorities?

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Two very different companies of different sizes with different markets, business models and priorities?

 

 

Stating the obvious doesn't answer the question as to why LL, a little company, would be timid after a big company faced down irate parents and won (the parents could keep their kids off games without supervision, for one). If anything, LL's business model, which involves 10% cuts and not 30% cuts, and a huge latitude for granting users the right to "jailbreak their phones" (make 3rd party viewers and otherwise adapt SL in various ways) should have been the one to defend users more.

Something is driving this. We have not yet heard what it is. The Twitter Helpful Hannahs, Hamlet, and other knowier-than-thou bloggers are not doing investigative reporting but are doing court reporting when they show no curiosity about this matter and hypothesize that "China" or "Belgium" or "California" prompted LL to do this. How? Why? In what form? By whom?

[Ceka Cianci]

I never really did much Gacha things..

I'm sure someone will find a work around though.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This blogger has very eloquently explained the value of gatchas and the meaning of their loss. That's the spirit, instead of behaving like the myrmidons falling all over each other to unquestioningly comply with this policy.

How does the element of randomness apply to their argument?

[MissPhortune]

There is a legal way around this. It’s not considered gambling if it is publicly posted what the odds are of getting each item.. 

this is just crazy. They are basically virtual gumball machines, get real!

what next? Ban breedables because we buy them but have no way of knowing what they will deliver???

[Cinos Field]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't see any that do except a few lesser known merchants who are on the forums. The best known merchants are expressing regret and sorrow if not fear and panic. What business are you in? 

Those adopting a high and mighty tone of contempt for the low culture of gatchas, or the supposed "predatory" nature of gatchas, were not heard from in the past by and large, and aren't really in touch with the common person who adored them.

 

I don't know about you, but I know a ton of high-profile creators on SL who refused to implement the gacha model to begin with. Did you consider those people?

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, Sukubia Scarmon said:

God forbid we pay higher prices to better reflect the amount of work that goes into creating for sl. And all without exploiting customers! The sheer audacity of that thought!

You're forgetting why gatchas came into existence, at Christmas time, with a memorable Advent calendar from one prominent creator in particular: because of increasing competition, because of the loss of visibility as first the telehubs were killed off, then people went to the MP and dropped inworld stores; and because of the LACK OF SALES.

The drive to create cheap, single copy alternatives came from the LOSS OF SALES by other economic dislocations in SL. At one time, you could buy Aimee Weber's underwear, or Blue's jewelry, or Khamon's trees, or Simone's outfits -- and that was it, there was one in each category, or a few, and the one big one with Linden blessing and help gaining media covering in RL (which I criticized and was banned from the forums for a time for calling out) was the norm. So it was hard for others to break into the market. Anshe created telehub malls that gave them that opportunity. Oldbies retaliated by demanding removal of the hubs "due to lag" (not true of all of them. Lindens put in p2p and  glutted the land market to try to control Anshe. There was the crashing of the old auctions; VAT; the drop in LindEx value and much more. Gatchas arose because of a need to make money somehow in an increasingly competitive and difficult world.

The gatcha take-over led in turn to weekend sales, more and more of them, and then retaliation against their cut of the gatcha revenue with more and larger events with gatcha machines. These are strange phenomena until you realize the market is controlled as it is in China or Russia and people find ways around state controls.

[innocentkay]

This is such a load of crap, "changing regulatory climate", how about giving a REAL reason behind this?  Is it because you think some creators are rigging the machines so people don't get the rares they want?  What about Arcade and Epiphany, two of the best SL events?  Maybe you should have done a grid wide poll about this before just springing it on all of us, and no, I'm not a creator either.  What about when we use those for gifts?  I shop during things like Valentine's Day and Christmas for things like this that are easily transferred, what about that????? 

Edited August 3, 2021 by innocentkay
Adding content

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, MissPhortune said:

There is a legal way around this. It’s not considered gambling if it is publicly posted what the odds are of getting each item..

Could you explain to us what this word "odds" means?

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 hours ago, Finite said:

, it's very likely you've bought the same outfit twice from different vendors.

Yep. Deliberately with full knowledge. Lots more patterns and colors to chose from that way.

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

19 hours ago, 69queenofthenight said:

So Basically anyone who sells breedables and uses a vendor to sell multiple Items of the same breed but the rest of the items is unknown can no longer use vendors or gatchas to sell eggs, bundles, crates,  or whatever the babies birth as.  Because we would have to list every trait on all the breedables?  We can not just put a certain breed in a vendor with various traits. 

You can, if you tell your customers to click the Info button on your scripted vendor system, and have a shortened url link to your FB page or Flickr ad photo and so forth, with the various traits for that specific breedable animal. I have added the Flickr link on all of my vendors(not gacha), so that they can see any additional details and see the ad photo at the high resolution.

Yes, it's more effort but your customers will appreciate that.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

I won't be changing anything about my comments and your characterization of yours is just your subjective take. There's nothing "snooty" about referencing people really fearing for their livelihoods. On the contrary. What business are you in again?

So as a consumer, my input is invalid. Is that what you are saying. And yeah change happens, whether it be bad or good, that is part of life. I mean I am all for this change. I couldn't stand Gachas today, as they were basically slot machines. Not gumball machines as some people have put. Sure when it first started in SL, you could easily compare it to that. But nowadays, a gacha machine can be easily comparable to a slot machine. 

[Little Hexem]

50 minutes ago, Little Hexem said:

Hello! I know that many peoples are creating scripts for creators, events and vendors. I and many of my friends (product creators) have encountered a problem and are very upset about this situation. Due to the recent change in Linden Labs gacha policy, many designers have trouble coming up with something with their old gacha products. 
I have a great idea how to continue using the gacha and not violate the rules of the  Linden Labs policy. 
We can add an indication of the prize to the gacha script. That is, above the gacha machine or in the additional window there will be an indicator "next prize + name / number of the prize "then the person will see what he is paying for and there will be no violation of the rules. Maybe you can make such a script? It could help many sl designers  ❤️ 

With best wishes, Little Hexem

For example: There is a gacha machine, as usual there is a picture with the numbers of each item, and before the purchase, there will be a floating text "name of the next prize + prize number" above the gacha machine. In this case, the person knows what he is buying. looks like lucky leters or lucky chairs. That wouldn't be a violation of the rules, would it?

[Cinos Field]

And I dunno about anyone else here but I've found tons of mod/copy unique and quirky decor items on SL. Lots of creators have plenty of creativity outside of the gacha sphere. The whole notion, as in that linked blog post, that "a lot of gacha is far more unique and interesting than non-transferable objects that can be purchased in SL" is totally alien to me.

[Qie Niangao]

9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How does the element of randomness apply to their argument?

Right, that blog doesn't actually talk about gacha at all, only about transferable, no-copy objects, some in limited circulation, which they apparently only ever bought by gacha. To the extent there's a real market for those products, they'll be for sale, with or without gacha. To the extent that market is not supportable, that's the extent gacha depended on being a form of gambling for its success (such as it was).

There are plenty of us who learned never to even look at Arcade or Epiphany sales because we just don't want to deal with gacha. If those creators can just quit pining for the good ol' days of gacha and get on with competent marketing, they'll do just fine. If they keep feeling sorry for themselves because change happened, they've been doomed all along.

[VergilISparda]

2 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

And I dunno about anyone else here but I've found tons of mod/copy unique and quirky decor items on SL. Lots of creators have plenty of creativity outside of the gacha sphere. The whole notion, as in that linked blog post, that "a lot of gacha is far more unique and interesting than non-transferable objects that can be purchased in SL" is totally alien to me.

Well said. I cannot agree more.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Little Hexem said:

For example: There is a gacha machine, as usual there is a picture with the numbers of each item, and before the purchase, there will be a floating text "name of the next prize + prize number" above the gacha machine. In this case, the person knows what he is buying. looks like lucky leters or lucky chairs. That wouldn't be a violation of the rules, would it?

Can we stop trying to find workarounds, I mean it sounds great on paper. However, when LL catches wind of this and the governments find that this is happening. They are gonna crack down on LL again. I can see it happening. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

And I dunno about anyone else here but I've found tons of mod/copy unique and quirky decor items on SL. Lots of creators have plenty of creativity outside of the gacha sphere. The whole notion, as in that linked blog post, that "a lot of gacha is far more unique and interesting than non-transferable objects that can be purchased in SL" is totally alien to me.

I never understood that, I mean Gachas aren't the only ones with the creative unique and quirky items out there.