New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Deathly Fright]

Just now, Cinos Field said:

The blog post says "a chance-based outcome as a result of a payment." 

If you pay the machine to create a random result, in this case the opportunity for your next purchase, it would seem to clearly fall under that description.

you aren't paying for the next item, you are paying for the item it says in the hovertext. what items the vendor has in it has nothing to do with one purchase to the next

[Kricket Calamity]

Just now, Cinos Field said:

The blog post says "a chance-based outcome as a result of a payment." 

If you pay the machine to create a random result, in this case the opportunity for your next purchase, it would seem to clearly fall under that description.

I think if I understand it correctly. The machine does the random chance without anyone paying. They see the item, pay for it and then the machine refreshes again to a random item. Is that the same as paying for a random result?

[Cinos Field]

Just now, Deathly Fright said:

you aren't paying for the next item, you are paying for the item it says in the hovertext. what items the vendor has in it has nothing to do with one purchase to the next

But then, wouldn't a slot machine that tells you what it's going to pay out on the next roll, while randomizing the one after that, be allowed? It's one of those "spirit of the law" things, almost certainly. Moving the random aspect one step forward, I doubt will have any effect on legislation.

[Zoey Winsmore]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

how would it not be allowed? you are clearly being told what item you're getting, there are no rules for what item the vendor sells next. only that the item be clearly stated, which would be "fixed" by hovertext

If a hovertext stating what the next roll would be when someone pays then it wouldn't be a gacha anymore. Then it would only result in many people standing around and snatch it away from you when the hovertext shows, "Pay to get <insert item name> item". Because people do not wait in line. Seen it in MMO's as well.

[Kricket Calamity]

2 minutes ago, VergilISparda said:

I believe that it is exactly the point "Them going away" you cannot possibly find a different way to do the same thing (Make people pay for a random item, be it first item, last or 99th in the line) and expect no consequences from LL

That's why people are asking questions and bouncing ideas around. No one's going to do anything until we have the all clear from LL but we're not going to get an answer from them a few minutes after a new idea is born. 

[Bigger Halfpint]

Love it bye bye gacha it is addiction to keep paying and therefor gambeling plain simple. i never understood LL closing down gambeling but remain to allow these gacha stuff. Good call and thanks!

[Kitty Barnett]

3 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

yes. so you walk up to what looks to be a normal gatcha vendor now and it has a small hovertext that says the key from the gatcha graphic. then when you buy that thing it randomly picks (just like it always has) and then the hovertext changes so that it says the new item's key. it won't help people who have a problem with gatchas, and there will be a problem of people camming to the gatcha and waiting for a rare to popup to get it, but I think it technically would be ok under the new rules.

This will get automated fairly quickly: you point a viewer (or a bot) at the gacha vendor, you say which prize you'd like (hover text would be easiest since that's text but texture indicators will work too) and you leave an alt there AFK.

If the next item isn't locked you could snipe rares, if the next item is locked for a limited time you can only snipe (un)commons - I'll assume that no one would pass on a rare, although you do get a roll of your own with ever common you snag up - but often you actively want specific common items too anyway and it'll just be a matter of time before someone leaves that common you want up.

So go to bed, leave your alt at epiphany and by morning you'll have a good chunk of all the specific commons you wanted with no effort on your part. The only way for a real person to play would be to throw away their first roll on something they don't want.

[Deathly Fright]

Just now, Cinos Field said:

But then, wouldn't a slot machine that tells you what it's going to pay out on the next roll, while randomizing the one after that, be allowed? It's one of those "spirit of the law" things, almost certainly. Moving the random aspect one step forward, I doubt will have any effect on legislation.

🤷‍♀️ I don't know. I don't even really like gatchas, other then the cheap commons in the MP I gobble up. I just thought that this was a clever workaround because it meets all the new rules but also makes it so it's still a thing. Lidens need to give clarity I guess.

[Rosekin1982]

3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Just remembered I did buy a music box gatcha from Contraption for only $75L  A common blue one that fits perfectly in the library of my castle.  Such detail and textures for a modest price.  Not sure why they can't be sold individually though - I would have paid more for one of his Rares.

 

 

And here is the thing with this new law. The days of getting those common items for cheap are soon to be gone. Forget 50, 75 or even 100 L$ items, they will now go up by a factor of 10 to compensate for the lost income. ANYONE Thinking this new rule will let them get the same items at the same price without the randomness are mistaken. The only reason you were getting quality items form the gacha for such a cheap prize is the law of averages. Most rare items in Gachas were set to a 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 change to occur. This meant that a person would, on average, need to play 10 or 20 times to get the rare. So lets say the gacha was a 50 L$ gacha. 10 pulls x 50 L$ equals 500 L$. Now some would need the full 10 pulls to get the rare, and others would need only 1 pull, and yes some needed more then 10 (it does happen at times). Some of us were happy with the commons in a machine. I for one did not play a machine unless I happened to like most of the items in it to begin with. So for 50 L$ I could get a quality item in a random color and I was happy. NOW though, what you will see is those same common items selling for 500 L$. Heck, I would not be surprised if the creators that switch to normal vendors after this jack up the "Rare" items more then 10 x the price you would have paid in the Gacha. All I can see this move doing is further hurting SL, driving talented creators out of SL entirely and driving up the prices of items for those that stay.

 

And to those of you who keep commenting how much you HATED Gacha, here was an idea... DO NOT PLAY IT THEN. Pretty simple really. Why it is that those whom do not like something have to ruin it for others rather then just avoiding it is beyond me.

[Cinos Field]

1 minute ago, Kricket Calamity said:

I think if I understand it correctly. The machine does the random chance without anyone paying. They see the item, pay for it and then the machine refreshes again to a random item. Is that the same as paying for a random result?

If you have to pay it to re-randomize the next payout, I feel like it is. The intent that the buyer pays for the next chance rather than the item presented is clearly there. I mean I'm neither a lawyer non linden labs, so I suppose we'll have to see if those groups are okay with that workaround.

[Bigger Halfpint]

Love it bye bye gacha it is addiction to keep paying and therefor gambeling plain simple. i never understood LL closing down gambeling but remain to allow these gacha stuff. Good call and thanks!

[Deathly Fright]

2 minutes ago, Zoey Winsmore said:

If a hovertext stating what the next roll would be when someone pays then it wouldn't be a gacha anymore. Then it would only result in many people standing around and snatch it away from you when the hovertext shows, "Pay to get <insert item name> item". Because people do not wait in line. Seen it in MMO's as well.

as I understand it, an avi lock could be made where if in 1 minute the person who just purchased has a chance to buy more and only they can buy

[VergilISparda]

2 hours ago, Kricket Calamity said:

That's why people are asking questions and bouncing ideas around. No one's going to do anything until we have the all clear from LL but we're not going to get an answer from them a few minutes after a new idea is born. 

Yeah. I agree. I just see it as "Pay to view the next random prize" which sounds the same to me. People are going to pay until they get to the one they want, that's how gacha work (item they don't have yet, or the item that is 'rare')

[Deathly Fright]

2 minutes ago, Kitty Barnett said:

This will get automated fairly quickly: you point a viewer (or a bot) at the gacha vendor, you say which prize you'd like (hover text would be easiest since that's text but texture indicators will work too) and you leave an alt there AFK.

If the next item isn't locked you could snipe rares, if the next item is locked for a limited time you can only snipe (un)commons - I'll assume that no one would pass on a rare, although you do get a roll of your own with ever common you snag up - but often you actively want specific common items too anyway and it'll just be a matter of time before someone leaves that common you want up.

So go to bed, leave your alt at epiphany and by morning you'll have a good chunk of all the specific commons you wanted with no effort on your part. The only way for a real person to play would be to throw away their first roll on something they don't want.

as I understand it, an avi lock could be made where if in 1 minute the person who just purchased has a chance to buy more and only they can buy

[Cinos Field]

2 minutes ago, Rosekin1982 said:

And here is the thing with this new law. The days of getting those common items for cheap are soon to be gone. Forget 50, 75 or even 100 L$ items, they will now go up by a factor of 10 to compensate for the lost income. ANYONE Thinking this new rule will let them get the same items at the same price without the randomness are mistaken. The only reason you were getting quality items form the gacha for such a cheap prize is the law of averages. Most rare items in Gachas were set to a 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 change to occur. This meant that a person would, on average, need to play 10 or 20 times to get the rare. So lets say the gacha was a 50 L$ gacha. 10 pulls x 50 L$ equals 500 L$. Now some would need the full 10 pulls to get the rare, and others would need only 1 pull, and yes some needed more then 10 (it does happen at times). Some of us were happy with the commons in a machine. I for one did not play a machine unless I happened to like most of the items in it to begin with. So for 50 L$ I could get a quality item in a random color and I was happy. NOW though, what you will see is those same common items selling for 500 L$. Heck, I would not be surprised if the creators that switch to normal vendors after this jack up the "Rare" items more then 10 x the price you would have paid in the Gacha. All I can see this move doing is further hurting SL, driving talented creators out of SL entirely and driving up the prices of items for those that stay.

I'm perfectly willing to pay a higher, known price, than an unknown and possibly infinite amount to get an item I want.

Creators that set astronomical prices will probably go out of business given the competition. And there's a lot of competition for high quality non-gacha items.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Cinos Field

[Kricket Calamity]

2 minutes ago, Kitty Barnett said:

This will get automated fairly quickly: you point a viewer (or a bot) at the gacha vendor, you say which prize you'd like (hover text would be easiest since that's text but texture indicators will work too) and you leave an alt there AFK.

If the next item isn't locked you could snipe rares, if the next item is locked for a limited time you can only snipe (un)commons - I'll assume that no one would pass on a rare, although you do get a roll of your own with ever common you snag up - but often you actively want specific common items too anyway and it'll just be a matter of time before someone leaves that common you want up.

So go to bed, leave your alt at epiphany and by morning you'll have a good chunk of all the specific commons you wanted with no effort on your part. The only way for a real person to play would be to throw away their first roll on something they don't want.

There are usually time limits at events, most big events would have the bot kicked out well before it could snipe things. I've been at an event camming around and was kicked out for inactivity after 30 mins. 

[LIDA Messinez]

Sorry my bad english ... i'm using google translate.

I really don't understand ... I didn't understand the motivation, the real one, that led to this wicked decision!
Some say it is to prevent gambling ... motivation non-existent because there are lands on the sl where you really gamble.
For the gachas you pay a certain amount of L and you already know what you can find. They are like baby machines in real life. Put the coin and the ball comes out with the game inside.

My opinion? Some creators, I read many here who are happy with this decision, do not want to use the gacha policy, but as they are free to sell their creations at high prices, other creators may decide to sell at low prices, as happens with the weekly offers.
In the gacha you will find objects and clothes made really well and accessible to everyone, on the contrary on the marketplace or in the shops you will find some crap at absurd prices ... and coincidentally these creators do not put gacha machines.

In my opinion there has been a strong push on LL from these who have not understood that if they create beautiful things they are appreciated much more using gachas. The more people try to take the rare, the more it means that the item has great value and is recognized by the public.

This is what I understand .... If anyone can tell me where to find the TRUE motivation, I would be grateful to them.

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, VergilISparda said:

Yeah. I agree. I just see it as "Pay to view the next random prize" which sounds the same to me. People are going to pay until they get to the one they want, that's how gacha work (item they don't have yet, or the item that is 'rare')

I agree personally, and don't think it will help people who have a real problem with gachas.

[Qie Niangao]

Just now, Deathly Fright said:

as I understand it, an avi lock could be made where if in 1 minute the person who just purchased has a chance to buy more and only they can buy

It's certainly technically trivial to script it that way. But honestly, this whole idea seems like the worst imaginable user interface for a vendor. If there are people nonetheless attracted to this idea it must surely be for some fleeting whiff of chance.

[Deathly Fright]

Just now, Qie Niangao said:

It's certainly technically trivial to script it that way. But honestly, this whole idea seems like the worst imaginable user interface for a vendor. If there are people nonetheless attracted to this idea it must surely be for some fleeting whiff of chance.

oh I agree completely. it would just be a way of keeping gatchas in the rules and not fix the problem of gatchas. but I would rather have gatchas stay if it's keeping good makers, which are already getting more rare, in SL.

[Skell Dagger]

4 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

ok, mention 5 big ip-replacement actions from last 3 months... nót hear say

I can give you three: copybotted Catwa 'Daniel' head and Catwa 'Catya' head, both found in group-only (L$10 join fee for the group) Midnight Mania boards on mainland SL. No HUD for the heads, or scripts; they were set up as 'BoM only'. In addition, the included eye HUD contained textures ripped from IKON, and at least one other store that we sadly couldn't recognise and therefore get in touch with.

[Rosekin1982]

2 hours ago, ConnieG Sorbet said:

Ohh well.. if the fishing I am reading more details about continues to be allowed... with rares and allsorts... then all creators need to do is dump their goods in the river and let us pay for a fishing rod and bait... to get rares

7Seas fishing is most likely what you are talking about. And there is no market for reselling the fish. The Rarities on the fish are for the purpose of fishing contests. Each rarity having a point value to determine where you place in the contest. This simulates pretty accurately, the randomness of actual fishing contests, where the person with the biggest fish wins. One could easily replace rarity levels with weights, but that takes some of the fun out of 7Seas. Catching a rare Narwhal or Poseidon is a lot more fun then catching a 5 lb or 20 lb fish. Ironically some people view 7Seas as gambling as well, despite the fact that those taking part in the contest do NOT have to pay to get into it. You show up with a purchased rod (same as purchasing a fishing rod in RL to fish) and the person holding the contest puts up the prize money. Now people taking part in the fishing can contribute to the pot to increase it if they wish, but it is not required nor does it increase you chances of winning the contest. There is no gambling. It is a random contest that simulates RL fishing contests.

[Scum Pond]

13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's certainly technically trivial to script it that way. But honestly, this whole idea seems like the worst imaginable user interface for a vendor. If there are people nonetheless attracted to this idea it must surely be for some fleeting whiff of chance.

if you're a scripter and not currently thinking about a way to make a vending script to do gatchas within laws and LL rules in a friendly manner, you obviously don't like $L

Edited August 3, 2021 by Scum Pond

[Rosekin1982]

2 hours ago, Emilie Muggins said:

Method D (target is customer satisfaction)

1. the vendor reezes a box

2. puts the item in it,

3. puts a picture of the item on the box

4. sets the content of the box for sale at a reasonable price, with reasonable perms

no complicated script they have to buy, no server script lag, the customer buys what they want, when they want, the vendor gets the money

 

It is cute you think this will happen. What do you consider "reasonable price"? 10 times what they charged for a gacha pull? 20x? More?

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Patch has been quoted with an update that Ryan Schultz has blogged about but I can't find it on the site here. Anyway, it adds some clarifications and assurances.

I think this is the link:

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Innula Zenovka