New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Chris Corvinus]

@Patch Linden Look, I support this decision. What I don't support is giving creators 30 days to scramble. Thats insulting. What you (well, LL) did was literally throw a meteor into the ocean and created a tsunami of epic proportions. Its been blowing up over at Facebook. Epiphany and Arcade events are pretty much dead. Creators who made a living off gacha sales, they are obviously deeply affected. Then you have the creators who made nothing but gachas so you can imagine how they gotta feel.

What I am asking is please don't start throwing down The Hammer at the end of this month. People need a lot more time than 30 days. Many of them havent even started yet as they are still wondering what their next step is even going to be. There's a lot of variables you have to consider here.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Chris Nova

[BeatriceSongbird]

15 hours ago, VicariousSally said:

What about gacha resellers through marketplace? How will this impact our MP as its NOT a chance sell like the gacha machine itself....

From the linden blog post : 

Quote

"We will continue to allow any sales where a payment is given for a known item, which means that items that had been purchased as “gacha” will be allowed to be re-sold as long as the buyer knows in advance the item and quantity they will receive. We will, of course, still allow fatpacks, and any other currently-allowed distribution mechanisms."

What is targeted here is the gacha mechanism of selling, (ie, the gacha machines), not the items themselves. So, yes you can still resell your gacha items, creators can also take apart their items from the gachas, and put them in regular vendors.

Personally as a customer, I'm delighted that the gacha economy finally comes to an end. It contributed to create an artificial scarcity, inlating prices on MP for some items (you could find a same gacha item anywhere between 50 and 5000 L on the mp, depending on the reseller), and it was annoying not to be able to get the item you wanted, either through random luck of by paying HUGE amounts of $L by endlessly flipping the one arm bandits).

I'm sorry for the organizers of all gacha events, and owners of all gacha malls, and specific gacha resellers, this will force them to reconsider their source of revenue, and it's a blow for them, but i sincerely believe that in the long run, curing gambling addiction,  and cleaning up the economy is better for the customers.

[Blue Conover]

1 minute ago, Saskeeya said:

Personally, from a consumer's point of view I like the idea of stopping gachas. As for content creators as well as people craving unique items - I get that this might be bad news. But suggestion: what about designing limited edition items that are transferable, so the buyers might be able to resell at their own price? It is a big hit in RL particularely in the sneakers market - so why not in SL? Also raffles to get a chance to buy a limited edition item is an idea taken from the RL world of fashion, would that be allowed?

Cause Raffles are gambling

[Blue Conover]

Just now, BeatriceSongbird said:

From the linden blog post : 

What is targeted here is the gacha mechanism of selling, (ie, the gacha machines), not the items themselves. So, yes you can still resell your gacha items, creators can also take apart their items from the gachas, and put them in regular vendors.

Personally as a customer, I'm delighted that the gacha economy finally comes to an end. It contributed to create an artificial scarcity, inlating prices on MP for some items (you could find a same gacha item anywhere between 50 and 5000 L on the mp, depending on the reseller), and it was annoying not to be able to get the item you wanted, either through random luck of by paying HUGE amounts of $L by endlessly flipping the one arm bandits).

I'm sorry for the organizers of all gacha events, and owners of all gacha malls, and specific gacha resellers, this will force them to reconsider their source of revenue, and it's a blow for them, but i sincerely believe that in the long run, curing gambling addiction,  and cleaning up the economy is better for the customers.

So Gacha's gone. all that revenue is now gone. Events that were based on these, gone.

Reseller market. Gone.

all this does is help kill an already dying economy

[Saskeeya]

2 minutes ago, Blue Conover said:

Cause Raffles are gambling

Ok, so skip raffles - but making limited edition items as non copy/trans could be an option for people who would like to buy and sell unique items?

[ananoelle]

3 minutes ago, Blue Conover said:

So Gacha's gone. all that revenue is now gone. Events that were based on these, gone.

Reseller market. Gone.

all this does is help kill an already dying economy

no just gachas are going... you can still resell what you have though.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I have read most of the links posted in this epic. The ones about the new laws from the EU. They all use the words "online game" and "video games" which i find very interesting as SL is not either of those. Buy definition, SL is a virtual world. Buying a gatcha/lootbox in SL does noting to help you "win" SL. Because there is no end goal aside from enjoyment. 

I know, people will scream "It is so a game!" If that is the case, please tell me the rules, the end goal and how a gatcha help you win. 

I get it, gatchas are random, they give an unknown prize. EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU PLAY IT. And that is most of the fun of them. Same reason kids love the 25 cent toy vendors at grocery stores. You get a random toy, piece of candy, sticker, whatever. Most gatchas are between $50L and $100L to play. Which is about the same as a grocery store machine costs to play. 

Come on people, how many of us couldn't wait to spend our allowance on Baseball cards in the hope of getting your favorite player? Or Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh, Magic the Gathering, or any of the others. The Mickey Mantel baseball card just sold for $5.2 million. A baseball card. Why is that still legal? Are they coming for RL gatchas next? 

[VergilISparda]

2 hours ago, Saskeeya said:

Ok, so skip raffles - but making limited edition items as non copy/trans could be an option for people who would like to buy and sell unique items?

That will make said "limited edition" items way too rare after the vendors are out I think. Creating another problem for some. 

[ConnieG Sorbet]

Ohh well.. if the fishing I am reading more details about continues to be allowed... with rares and allsorts... then all creators need to do is dump their goods in the river and let us pay for a fishing rod and bait... to get rares

Edited August 3, 2021 by ConnieG Sorbet

[Blue Conover]

7 minutes ago, ananoelle said:

no just gachas are going... you can still resell what you have though.

The gacha resell market will die because there will be no influx.

The way it works is the new shiny things attract customers. Gacha machines attract customers to items, and then they go to resellers to find the exact item they want and hope to find it at a decent price.

Now you have none of that. you just have  Word of mouth? Random find on MP when you are looking for something?

thats IF someone has correctly labelled it rather than just "gacha Sale"

Anyone who believes this will result in no loss for gacha resellers, and will result in a "bigger better" economy.

Are naive to the supreme

Its one reason why cigarettes are still sold despite knowing they kill people.

No country can afford the loss tot he economy

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Blue Conover

[connorboy26]

25 minutes ago, Bartholomew Gallacher said:

If you want my sympathy for that your business is now running down the hill, go looking somewhere else. Business is business, it sometimes calls for tough decision and sympathy brings you nowhere. Linden Lab understands this good enough, because they are still in business. So the question is do you?  Whatever.

If you read my post, mine isnt going down hill, i am here for a hobby.... How many businesses do you run rl or sl to be giving such deep and insightful advice...whatever.

[ConnieG Sorbet]

12 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I'm in the corner of the region, cammed and camping your machine, i have the pay dialog open and I'm poised to snipe the item you want. There are 10 other people doing the same.

think locking the machine to the last user for a time period will help .. not on a region where scripts are lagged out and it's going to take 20 minutes to process refunds.

If you think gacha's are sucky now, this is going to be much worse.

I have never once been stood next to another person at a Gacha machine wanting to use the same machine... ever.

The number of Gacha machines far outweights the users.. I am sure of it.

But .. I use many sims where you have to be near objects to use them so that you can't cam in. ... so your cam theory can be removed.

[ananoelle]

19 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 

Come on people, how many of us couldn't wait to spend our allowance on Baseball cards in the hope of getting your favorite player? Or Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh, Magic the Gathering, or any of the others. The Mickey Mantel baseball card just sold for $5.2 million. A baseball card. Why is that still legal? Are they coming for RL gatchas next? 

 

[silevera]

2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

The script is the mechanism in the gacha machine that controls the machines outcome it controls the random chances he is talking about.

If your so pedantic about it wait for LL to clarify directly.

Why should I not be pedantic? And I am waiting for LL to clarify directly, as has been all of SL. The last thing anyone from LL has said was 14 hours ago now.

[Drayke Newall]

1 minute ago, silevera said:

 The last thing anyone from LL has said was 14 hours ago now.

It is night at the moment, give them some time.

[ananoelle]

@Blue Conover 

 Sounds like the only ones who are going to eventually find themselves on the out are the resellers and the creators will pocket all of their works takings? correct me if I am wrong. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

8 minutes ago, silevera said:

Why should I not be pedantic? And I am waiting for LL to clarify directly, as has been all of SL. The last thing anyone from LL has said was 14 hours ago now.

Its 3AM in Cali right now... They are all asleep. If you really dont think they will have a meeting about this before replying with answers, i have some prime swampland in Florida for sale. 

[Harry333 Allen]

11 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

At the end of the day, the United States of America is not an island isolated from the rest of world.

Yeah it isnt about laws lmfao its about money getting syphed off duh .

Linden taxes Europeans according to their tax laws . When your Eurpean country has a tax rate of example 21 percent linden will charge all your land buys 21 percent extra to abide to that European countries tax law . Linden says its been paid to your European countries government. yeah like hell it is lmfao show me the bill Linden ggg.

Thats why there is no competition in land ownership or buisinesses when from outside USA the margins are to small and you get taxed like a mofo by linden .

Exactly why i never bought anny land in sl

[Emilie Muggins]

11 hours ago, powerofvoid said:

Other folks have described this before in this thread, but I figure it's worth describing it in more detail: (look for "conveyor belt")

It looks like you're still allowed to have vendors like this:

Method A (simpler):

1. SELECTION: The vendor selects its next item through some process (likely randomized)
2. DISPLAY: The vendor displays the item it is offering
3. A customer touches the vendor, and tells the vendor they would like to buy the item shown
4. The vendor locks itself to only that customer
5. The vendor sends a confirmation to the customer, indicating which item they will receive if they pay the vendor
6. The vendor becomes open for payment to the customer
7. PAYMENT: The customer pays the vendor
8. The customer receives the item displayed
9. The vendor closes itself to payment
10. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
11. The vendor unlocks itself from that customer
12. The vendor selects the next item
13. Return to the beginning

Method B (Encourages repeated purchases)

1. SELECTION: The vendor selects its next item through some process (likely randomized)
2. DISPLAY: The vendor displays the item it is offering
3. A customer touches the vendor, and tells the vendor they would like to buy the item shown
4. The vendor locks itself to only that customer
5. The vendor sends a confirmation to the customer, indicating which item they will receive if they pay the vendor
6. The vendor becomes open for payment to the customer
7. PAYMENT: The customer pays the vendor
8. The customer receives the item displayed
9. The vendor closes itself to payment
10. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
11. The vendor selects the next item
12. The vendor displays its next item
13. The vendor becomes open for payment to the previous customer
14. If the customer pays the vendor, go back to "PAYMENT"
15. TIMEOUT: If the customer does not pay within the allowed time (30 seconds?), proceed:
16. The vendor closes itself to payment
17. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
18. The vendor unlocks itself from the customer
19. Return to the beginning, possibly without selecting a new item

Method C (sim traffic generation)

1. SELECTION: The vendor selects its next item through some process (likely randomized)
2. DISPLAY: The vendor displays the item it is offering
3. The vendor becomes open for payment
4. PAYMENT: A customer pays the vendor
5. The customer receives the displayed item
6. return to DISPLAY, unless enough time has passed
7. TIMEOUT: When enough time has passed (perhaps five minutes?), proceed:
8. The vendor closes itself to payment
9. The vendor waits a few seconds for people to be able to react
10. Return to the beginning

Things to watch out for:

1. All items should be clearly and usefully labeled (name, description, perms, polycount, VRAM usage, land impact, etc.)
2. Different items should all have [i]different[/i] names and labels
3. There two-step lock-in process in Method A and Method B is important, because it keeps another avatar from "ninja-ing" and causing the item to change before the customer receives the item. (it's not needed on the third, because a purchase does not change what the next customer will receive)

The products sold can still have any permissions the merchant chooses (e.g.: nc/M/T), so, assuming all three of these machines are allowed, I expect the overall long-term impact of the gacha ban to be minor.

There will still be tradeable no-copy items whose [i]availability[/i] is essentially random, you'll just know what you're paying for before you actually pay for it.

Many of these tradeable no-copy items will still come in different rarities.

The main benefit of this policy will be that Second Life isn't shut down because of legal action, and the main downside will be that gacha merchants need to buy new machines to comply with the new policy.

Method D (target is customer satisfaction)

1. the vendor reezes a box

2. puts the item in it,

3. puts a picture of the item on the box

4. sets the content of the box for sale at a reasonable price, with reasonable perms

no complicated script they have to buy, no server script lag, the customer buys what they want, when they want, the vendor gets the money

 

[Qie Niangao]

20 minutes ago, ConnieG Sorbet said:

Ohh well.. if the fishing I am reading more details about continues to be allowed... with rares and allsorts... then all creators need to do is dump their goods in the river and let us pay for a fishing rod and bait... to get rares

I'm genuinely curious about how fishing is or isn't a "game of chance" like or unlike gacha. I gather that (in some versions?) one buys "bait" (or whatever) that may improve your probability of success, where "success" is landing a desirable fish, a 'rare" I guess.

Are those desirable fish transferable, or exchangeable for L$s or something else of value? If so, that would seem to make it more gambling-like, but if they're not transferable then would gacha of strictly no-transfer items be permitted? (This would be a radical change—no resale possible—so probably not of interest to gacha aficionados.) I suspect that wouldn't be permissible anyway because the item to be delivered is not determined before purchase.

The other aspect of fishing that intrigues me it shares with (some) breedables: The thing you buy directly may be completely deterministic, but it later affects a random process. Buying bait feels very different from a slot machine, but it would be so easy to change slot machines so they deliver a token that the recipient then "opens" and that only then obtains a randomized value (a kind of "Schrödinger's KittyCat"). That can't be legal, but it seems a lot like fishing or raising breedables.

[Cinos Field]

The blog post is worded in such a way that it seems any random effect as a result of money paid is banned anyhow. Which would include the hypothetical "preview gacha" where you pay for a random roll on the next available item. Unless the Lindens specifically say that's an exception.

Imagine it that was a slot machine, except you know if your next pull is going to win or lose. But you have to pay it to see what the roll after that will be like. It'd still violate all gambling laws, and pretty flagrantly so.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Cinos Field

[Marie Sims]

1 hour ago, Chris Nova said:

@Patch Linden Look, I support this decision. What I don't support is giving creators 30 days to scramble. Thats insulting. What you (well, LL) did was literally throw a meteor into the ocean and created a tsunami of epic proportions. Its been blowing up over at Facebook. Epiphany and Arcade events are pretty much dead. Creators who made a living off gacha sales, they are obviously deeply affected. Then you have the creators who made nothing but gachas so you can imagine how they gotta feel.

What I am asking is please don't start throwing down The Hammer at the end of this month. People need a lot more time than 30 days. Many of them havent even started yet as they are still wondering what their next step is even going to be. There's a lot of variables you have to consider here.

 I absolutely agree, 30 days its nothing for ppl who have over 250 gachas. It means I should close the sim for 2 months to re-make items, vendors...  crazy. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Marie Sims

[Evil Demonpaws]

16 hours ago, VicariousSally said:

What about gacha resellers through marketplace? How will this impact our MP as its NOT a chance sell like the gacha machine itself....

They said as long as the buyer knows what you receive you're allowed to resell.

[Emilie Muggins]

1 hour ago, connorboy26 said:

But everyone gets a prize with gacha also... generally a $50 value prize for a $50 investment. If you're lucky, you get something worth $100, $200 or even $1000. 

or you can get something that is worth nothing 20 times in 10 differents colors, or a part of an outfit that is useless without the 10 other parts and the rare

[Sid Nagy]

7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

It wasn't done because people whined.  Did you read the blog post?

What? one has to read why LL changes their policy?
Is that a policy change too?