New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Jaimy Hancroft]

21 minutes ago, Nightingalia said:

Just wondering- assuming that the gacha creators will turn their gacha products into regular sale items (like regular stores)

If I go and buy a ***** ton of gacha rn (usually $75 per item) and resell them when the gacha items turn full price (most products average around $300) for a discount ($80-$200), would that be profitable?
 

yes it would

[Crescenty]

7 hours ago, Patch Linden said:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to address a few themes I'm seeing so far.  

One of the bigger one's is 'why'?   As we mentioned in the post, the regulatory climate around these sorts of selling mechanisms abroad have been under scrutiny for some time, as many have also already mentioned.  This includes the formation of some precedence already in place.  We did not make this decision without a lot of thought on the impact this has and sadly we know how burdensome this can be for many.  Through legal guidance, we are giving as much notice as we possibly can, but we also understand that it may not be enough is all cases.  While we will begin enforcement on September 1, we will not start this out with an aggressive approach.  Your account will not be at risk on a first offense basis.  Please don't take that as an opportunity to break the rules until you get caught, but we are committed to taking a proactive approach to any enforcement. 

Next, is some of the comments on the mechanism or the gacha machines themselves.  It is the act of paying for something and in return the item/thing you receive back is based on chance.  The level of chance does not matter, or if you disclose it, including the ratios, percentages, etc, if the output is unknown (chance based in any way), that combination of mechanisms is what will be prohibited moving forward.

I have seen some interesting counter-points to how to handle the sales of the content themselves.  Of course any already purchased gachas will continue to be able to be re-sold by resellers so long as the sales mechanism doesn't use a chance based outcome to give you the item.  Limited quantity items is another that would be perfectly ok to do, so long as the item being represented for purchase is what you receive upon purchase.

As posts are still coming in faster than we can respond to, we will do our best to respond as quickly as we can.

I wonder how to solve the problems of fraudsters and copybots in MP.

People will buy items copied in bulk by copybots from MP, not producers, at a cheap price...

[Animal Haiku]

You must be out of your minds.  Linden Labs, afraid of vending machines?    Or just a power trip of authoritarian weight tossing in the name of "think of the children?

Ok, let's be real here.  Someone got their feelings hurt that they didn't get the "Ultra rare" prize, cried to you lot, or threatened a lawyer as it's "unfair" and you decide to deny everyone of a fun game.  They know what they are playing for, it's a game.  You know, when Second Life used to be fun?  No one is forcing people to play or buy gacha items.  Are fat packs next when someone cries about not getting their single shade of blonde in a hair pack and calls that "unfair"?  Can you honestly say that won't happen, because several of your residents don't believe you.  Maybe you should, I dunno, ASK YOUR RESIDENTS, before making sweeping decisions.  Works for other dictators, so give it a shot, eh?
 

[Chic Aeon]

I posted this about six hours ago but it got lost somehow so reposting.  Didn't read the TOME of info on this thread so it may have been said along the way. 

 

AND Seraphim will be hosting a listing of "fire sale" gachas for those that don't know already :D.   

************************************************************************

So this thread is WAY too long and I will put my personal thoughts "elsewhere", 

*********BUT BUT BUT **********

This really needs to be said and in all the post I read (not  all as it made me tired) I didn't see this comment.

 

While Linden Lab may give you the right to resell your no-copy gacha items as regular items  ----- IF you were in some of the top gacha events, you (as a creator) agreed to NEVER SELL THEM ANY OTHER WAY BUT GACHAS.

 

Shall I repeat?  Nope. You got the idea.  

 

So that mean for those of us that are honest and keep our word (I have LOTS of gachas made in the past) those items will be discontinued operantly. There is no other way to comply.  SOME events let you sell items as both no-copy gachas and fatpacks in the same event. So those fatpacks could still be sold of course.   

 

BUT (again that BUT thing) -- EVEN if you only made a gacha set for YOUR store and never sold it as a fatpack --- you pretty much PROMISED your customers that it would always "just" be in gacha form. That is how the gacha reseller stay in business. 

 

Heading off to type elsewhere. 

 

 

 

[Jaimy Hancroft]

1 minute ago, Marsellus Walcott said:

The only problem I see with this is that a random person could make the purchase after you paid for an item and a new one shows up, if he's quick enough. So you would probably have to make some sort of "exclusivity timer" for every purchase and the next one. I guess.

Not sure how this would affect lag and the overal shopping experience, as people would have to patiently wait before they can actually purchase something. It could also possibly create some problem concerning who would have access to said vendor, after the current buyer is done. I guess that could also be corrected with a high number of vendors at the same place, which, again, I have no idea how it would affect lag and the likes.

It's a nice idea, but definitelly needs some polishing, imho.

I'm sure scripters /events /markets will adapt and create something, they found a way around the gambling deal with adding skill gaming , they will find a way around gachas and create something new. it's the way the cookie crumbles in SL, people will find a way to make something new and exciting again, thats what i love about SL.

like ive said before in here, for every ending theres a new beginning.

[Mystical Heartsong]

8 hours ago, Miu Margetts said:

Bye bye, predatory gambling~!

I liked the fun toys, but when creators stuff entire outfit collections, broken up by part and colour, it was a bridge too far. Pure scum.

Time to stop holding whales upside down and shaking all of their lindos out.

No one is forcing anyone here to actually buy into your Gacha. We're all adults here. 

[Zoey Winsmore]

5 hours ago, Nixkie said:

I am kind of sad I resell them and rent a home with the funds 

I actually do not understand your reasoning that you need to play gacha to be able to pay your rent for a home. Reselling is not even a garantee that you can make up to get your rent together, person A lists something for L$50 and the next Person B undercuts Person A and sells that same item for L$45, and so on and so on until someone sells the same gacha for way less than you paid the gacha machine.

 

See, now Gacha will be forbidden soon and now you really can use that money that you would have thrown away at a gacha to actually pay that rent. I just don't get it, I rent too but I am not playing gacha to get the funds together for paying my rent.

[hope Antonelli]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Schnook said:

15 1/2 years, the patient is still breathing fine.

Yes. but they didn't ruin a LOT of creator income in the process

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

5 minutes ago, Animal Haiku said:

You must be out of your minds.  Linden Labs, afraid of vending machines?    Or just a power trip of authoritarian weight tossing in the name of "think of the children?

Ok, let's be real here.  Someone got their feelings hurt that they didn't get the "Ultra rare" prize, cried to you lot, or threatened a lawyer as it's "unfair" and you decide to deny everyone of a fun game.  They know what they are playing for, it's a game.  You know, when Second Life used to be fun?  No one is forcing people to play or buy gacha items.  Are fat packs next when someone cries about not getting their single shade of blonde in a hair pack and calls that "unfair"?  Can you honestly say that won't happen, because several of your residents don't believe you.  Maybe you should, I dunno, ASK YOUR RESIDENTS, before making sweeping decisions.  Works for other dictators, so give it a shot, eh?
 

Maybe it's time for you to stop getting offended and pick up a newspaper. This is gambling, and many, many countries are cracking down on online gambling. And this isn't LL's decision: it's a court decision. This kind of action is increasingly illegal, and LL can't find a way to justify breaking the law because you think you're above it.

[Scum Pond]

5 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I posted this about six hours ago but it got lost somehow so reposting.  Didn't read the TOME of info on this thread so it may have been said along the way. 

 

AND Seraphim will be hosting a listing of "fire sale" gachas for those that don't know already :D.   

************************************************************************

So this thread is WAY too long and I will put my personal thoughts "elsewhere", 

*********BUT BUT BUT **********

This really needs to be said and in all the post I read (not  all as it made me tired) I didn't see this comment.

 

While Linden Lab may give you the right to resell your no-copy gacha items as regular items  ----- IF you were in some of the top gacha events, you (as a creator) agreed to NEVER SELL THEM ANY OTHER WAY BUT GACHAS.

 

Shall I repeat?  Nope. You got the idea.  

 

So that mean for those of us that are honest and keep our word (I have LOTS of gachas made in the past) those items will be discontinued operantly. There is no other way to comply.  SOME events let you sell items as both no-copy gachas and fatpacks in the same event. So those fatpacks could still be sold of course.   

 

BUT (again that BUT thing) -- EVEN if you only made a gacha set for YOUR store and never sold it as a fatpack --- you pretty much PROMISED your customers that it would always "just" be in gacha form. That is how the gacha reseller stay in business. 

 

Heading off to type elsewhere. 

 

 

 

If some person/group doesn't understand about selling other ways after it's literally been banned, the promise is moot in the first place. F*** them.

[LittleMe Jewell]

7 minutes ago, Animal Haiku said:

Maybe you should, I dunno, ASK YOUR RESIDENTS, before making sweeping decisions.

Yes, LL should most definitely let their Residents make their legal decisions.

[Animal Haiku]

If gacha machines are illegal, why are toy vending machines in super markets, eh?  Same mechanics, same game of chance on a known set.  How is this any different? Is legality the actual issue?

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Animal Haiku
typo

[Silent Mistwalker]

35 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

For those that cannot decide and want the decision to be randomly done for them, modify the vendor to have the person click and it will randomly pop to one of the available items.  Then the person pays.  That way it is random for them, but they still see the item before paying for it.

Sounds like just a normal vendor to me. The ones that "hold" multiple items. Huh. Imagine that. 🤫

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, hope Antonelli said:

Yes. but they didn't ruin a LOT of creator income in the process

No one is keeping them from selling.  People sold things long before gatchas came into SL.  They will.continue to do so.

[Monstaar Mama]

14 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I posted this about six hours ago but it got lost somehow so reposting.  Didn't read the TOME of info on this thread so it may have been said along the way. 

 

AND Seraphim will be hosting a listing of "fire sale" gachas for those that don't know already :D.   

************************************************************************

So this thread is WAY too long and I will put my personal thoughts "elsewhere", 

*********BUT BUT BUT **********

This really needs to be said and in all the post I read (not  all as it made me tired) I didn't see this comment.

 

While Linden Lab may give you the right to resell your no-copy gacha items as regular items  ----- IF you were in some of the top gacha events, you (as a creator) agreed to NEVER SELL THEM ANY OTHER WAY BUT GACHAS.

 

Shall I repeat?  Nope. You got the idea.  

 

So that mean for those of us that are honest and keep our word (I have LOTS of gachas made in the past) those items will be discontinued operantly. There is no other way to comply.  SOME events let you sell items as both no-copy gachas and fatpacks in the same event. So those fatpacks could still be sold of course.   

 

BUT (again that BUT thing) -- EVEN if you only made a gacha set for YOUR store and never sold it as a fatpack --- you pretty much PROMISED your customers that it would always "just" be in gacha form. That is how the gacha reseller stay in business. 

 

Heading off to type elsewhere. 

 

 

 

While this is correct, it is slightly misleading. I know several creators who have received correspondence from the event staff of the events they participated in that due to the recent events they are released from those rules.

It is highly unlikely that ANY event will make any attempt to hold creators to their word now that Gachas are going away entirely.

If this just becomes a rumor it could become damaging, everyone please contact the hosts of the events you were in to get information on your individual contracts! Creators deserve to be able to monetize their creations after the Gacha ban if they so choose to!

Edited August 3, 2021 by Monstaar

[Mystical Heartsong]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Sounds like just a normal vendor to me. The ones that hold multiple items. Huh. Imagine that. 🤫

I think if you make the vendor stick to one item until it is paid for is more what theyre talking about

 

[Sandy Schnook]

3 minutes ago, hope Antonelli said:

Yes. but they didn't ruin a LOT of creator income in the process

Actually entire stores shut down due to mesh alone.  It became huge and it was fast.  Many sculpty and system layer clothing makers barely lasted a month past the introduction of mesh.  No gacha creator needs to shut down, they just have to reconsider how they do business.  Gacha resellers, who depend on what others make, will likely be most affected.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Animal Haiku said:

If gacha machines are illegal, why are toy vending machines in super markets, eh?  Same mechanics, same game of chance on a known set.  How is this any different?

 

LL has no control over that so slightly irrelevant to this subject.  They are complying with laws in other countries where SL is available.  

Did anyone actually read the blog post?  Been following laws about gaming companies and loot boxes?

[Drayke Newall]

9 minutes ago, Mystical Heartsong said:

I think if you make the vendor stick to one item until it is paid for is more what theyre talking about

 

I can just imagine it now. Shop owners inundated with IM's about how 'x' person stole their item as they were to slow due to lag to get the item they wanted after it appeared on the vendor after they paid for the item before to get the item they wanted to show. 🙄

:EDIT:

Also I cant see how that is different to a gacha as whilst yes you are paying for one specific item you are still offering a game of chance where you are actually paying to reveal an unknown item hidden under the currently viewed one.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Silent Mistwalker]

35 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

It can if the random selection comes before you pay.  Push a button, you get a random item displayed. Buy it or walk away.

Or push the button again for another random item to be displayed. And again, and again. Still not a gacha though. More like a normal multivendor. 

Example: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/AC-CasperVend-MultiVendor-V1/19453124

[Yuki Suki]

7 minutes ago, Animal Haiku said:

If gacha machines are illegal, why are toy vending machines in super markets, eh?  Same mechanics, same game of chance on a known set.  How is this any different? Is legality the actual issue?

 

 

You are in the wrong forum. Please ask that in the forum for supermarkets.

[Mystical Heartsong]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Schnook said:

Actually entire stores shut down due to mesh alone.  It became huge and it was fast.  Many sculpty and system layer clothing makers barely lasted a month past the introduction of mesh.  No gacha creator needs to shut down, they just have to reconsider how they do business.  Gacha resellers, who depend on what others make, will likely be most affected.

While I agree that gacha vendors wouldn't need to shut down, it does make it expensive now for them to stay in business as they now have to shift their entire inventory into a new business model. Uploading textures, prim allotments to host vendors, and all of this within a month. It's not realistic. It's now forcing them to stop new development to fix things that weren't broken. 

[Zoey Winsmore]

2 hours ago, madcatclaudia Restless said:

Question i have this MD Slot Machine (Pinup) 2.0.1  it doesnt list the prizes.. it is a slot machine you pay and it spins and you get a random prize for 35ld.?   Is this a gacha?

this is the item

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/MD-Slot-Machine-Pinup/3881870

 

??

Madcatclaudia restless

Yes, that is considered same as how a gacha works. Pay for something you won't know what will get. Your question and example is even worse since it doesn't list the prizes. It would even fall into the category of, a lootbox.

[Prokofy Neva]

25 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Yes, but too often the object name is "blah blah hunt gift" - or they use Caspervend.

Yes, too often, but actually, not in most cases. Even those using Casper put out the object to get you to take or buy it and stick with their store. Most of the time, I can see what I'm getting and make a decision on it.

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything.  The consumer always has the choice to buy or not.  They might stand there for hours waiting for someone else to buy the displayed item, just so they can then see what the next random item is. Or they may decide to buy the item in order to force it to the next item.  Totally their choice, but nothing random about the "purchase" part of it.

 

Why would the person that just bought the item that makes the rare item come up just not buy the rare item then?  What would the purpose of standing around waiting for someone to happen by and buy the common items so you can then get the rare. The concept doesn't work in reality especially since only one person would be able to use the machine at a time. I can see a lot of issues with that. Like being accused of "stealing" rares they've been waiting for.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Sam1 Bellisserian