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New Gacha Policy Discussion


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I am somewhat mixed on this.. yes some controls needed to be put in place because some Gatcha machines had crazy low rates for rares and were quite predatory. For instance, there was one avatar I had to buy hundreds of to even get one rare that was crazy. But the simple concept of a prize machine that is stocked with a certain number of number of prizes that are dispensed isn't in itself considered gambling. Perhaps more transparency on the percentages, Progressive increase in chances required for the more bought and/or a requirement for the items to be sold for a reasonable individual cost outside of a Gacha would have made them come in compliance with the upcoming laws.. but no clearly that would have taken effort and working with the community.. so the quick and lazy option of an outright ban it is, and things are now likely going to be the worse for it. 

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It amazes me the number of people who have such hatred for Gachas. Not sure how they think this is going to make things better. What I am foreseeing right now is a lot more creators calling it quits from SL, or are you people under the misconception that the Gacha machine creators are going to switch gears and offer these same items so cheaply in a store? There are several Gacha creators whom do not even have an In World store. And those that do start selling their creations in a normal vendor will most likely jack the prices WAY up to make up for lost revenue from the Gacha machines.

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Question:

If someone sold items as gachas with equal probability (no "rares"), but then clearly offered a free exchange option for anyone who bought one but didn't get the one they wanted, would that be permissible? This would allow that randomness factor for those who don't care which colour or specific item they get, while still allowing those who are after a specific one to get is at no additional cost and without gambling for it. I doubt many would do this, but I'm curious if this would be a solution.

Edited by HarrisonMcKenzie
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5 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Why would the person that just bought the item that makes the rare item come up just not buy the rare item then?  What would the purpose of standing around waiting for someone to happen by and buy the common items so you can then get the rare. The concept doesn't work in reality especially since only one person would be able to use the machine at a time. I can see a lot of issues with that. Like being accused of "stealing" rares they've been waiting for.

So lock the vendor to a person for say 30 seconds purchase time. I know this is possible because of old furry vendors, and host multiple machines of the same items. 

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19 minutes ago, Mystical Heartsong said:

While I agree that gacha vendors wouldn't need to shut down, it does make it expensive now for them to stay in business as they now have to shift their entire inventory into a new business model. Uploading textures, prim allotments to host vendors, and all of this within a month. It's not realistic. It's now forcing them to stop new development to fix things that weren't broken. 

The only portion they need to change is how they sell them, not any of the other things you listed. Mesh vendors are low LI so that really shouldn't be an issue.

Nothing is broken so there is nothing to fix. All they need do is rethink the sales method they use. 

Anyone who has owned and operated a successful business in RL would know these things. If they don't, then maybe they shouldn't be in business. Sorry. It sucks I know but it is reality.

Edited by Silent Mistwalker
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4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Your link takes me to a page with lots of listings, so no clue what specific item you meant to link to. 

If feeding is truly tied directly to breeding and not to just stay alive, then there might be an issue - since the outcome of the breeding will be random.  I apologize for making an invalid assumption about the feeding. I did say in multiple posts that my comments applied directly to KittyCats as I have no specific knowledge of other breedables. 

 

As a breedable creator I would like to weigh in on this.

Our breedables unlike some, do not require a secondary food stuff for breeding. We only require a single food to keep your animals alive. Breeding happens at the whim of the animal owner.

By our understanding of the current rules, that makes that type of breedables NOT a gacha as the breeding is completely voluntary and you are paying to keep the animals you have purchased alive, not to actually breed them!

There are some breedables that use one food to keep your animal alive, and another to keep them breeding.

I know that us and many others are eager for some clarification on this from @Patch Lindenas to what the rules will actually be for breedables.

My questions:
- Is a "random trait" [say a coat, eye or whatever] on a starter animal considered a gacha? 
- Is any breedable that uses a "food for breeding" considered a gacha?

I honestly believe that the secondary "food" for breeding could potentially violate this rule as you are technically paying for the breeding something random - but for breedables such as ours, where you do not need an additional "component" for breeding, that sould make them immune to this ruling - again to my current understanding [pending updates from LL]

I would say that for the moment, talk to your breedable creators and see where they stand. I look forward to speaking to more of our community and helping with this obviously awkward transition.

CutenCuddly Breedables

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Maryanne Solo said:

Paying  for something you don't know what it is?
>That's gambling.<
(only my opinion).

Gambling is wagering on the idea you might win something but probably won't. Gachas alway give you SOMETHING.   It's not like you come away empty handed. 

 

I'm like others. It's a done deal now.  Tank this thread.

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1 minute ago, Rosekin1982 said:

It amazes me the number of people who have such hatred for Gachas. Not sure how they think this is going to make things better. What I am foreseeing right now is a lot more creators calling it quits from SL, or are you people under the misconception that the Gacha machine creators are going to switch gears and offer these same items so cheaply in a store? There are several Gacha creators whom do not even have an In World store. And those that do start selling their creations in a normal vendor will most likely jack the prices WAY up to make up for lost revenue from the Gacha machines.

That's what I see as well. Higher prices. I rarely spend more on a gacha outfit set than people do on fatpacks with less features and options.

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1 hour ago, Drakkhis said:

I have figured out the new Gatcha... it shows the picture of what you are buying, after someone has purchased that Item is switches to a new random Item, so you know what you are buying but it is still random, who knows what is next

 

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

while this might be a way to edge case around the regulations, i am not sure that Linden will be all that interested in defending this edge case against the regulators

as in effect people will just keep jamming pull money into the machine til the rare appears on the vendor. And as that rare appears thru some random process then it would probably make no difference to a regulator

 

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

That is exactly the same as a gacha. You are still forcing a person to pay for an item for the CHANCE based on a %  that the next item to appear to buy is the one they wanted. 

The laws that are banning these things have nothing to do with showing what you get. You can show every item that is possible to get and have your system, but you are still paying money for a chance that you get the item you want.

In all fairness, I think LL needs to officially state whether this practice will be acceptable or not as it looks like a lucrative  alternative that could come into practice.

The law can very well prohibit it, but so far with what Patch said on page 9:

Quote

Next, is some of the comments on the mechanism or the gacha machines themselves.  It is the act of paying for something and in return the item/thing you receive back is based on chance.  The level of chance does not matter, or if you disclose it, including the ratios, percentages, etc, if the output is unknown (chance based in any way), that combination of mechanisms is what will be prohibited moving forward.

seems to be the focus and as long as what is pictured/expected is what you get upon payment, that part should no longer come into conflict with the change.

Re-randomizing occurring AFTER expected product is paid for and receiving, might be an entirely different ethics/legal issue altogether.

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18 minutes ago, Mystical Heartsong said:

While I agree that gacha vendors wouldn't need to shut down, it does make it expensive now for them to stay in business as they now have to shift their entire inventory into a new business model. Uploading textures, prim allotments to host vendors, and all of this within a month. It's not realistic. It's now forcing them to stop new development to fix things that weren't broken. 

Or just list the same voucher in a normal vendor. You make it sound like someone has to recreate everything from scratch, which is... not the case.

Edited by Toothless Draegonne
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1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

The only portion they need to change is how they sell them, not any of the other things you listed. Mesh vendors are low LI so that really shouldn't be an issue.

Nothing is broken so there is nothing to fix. All they need do is rethink the sales method they use. 

Anyone who has owned and operated a successful business in RL should know these things. If they don't, then maybe they shouldn't be in business. Sorry. It sucks I know but it is reality.

Except now you will need to take pics and make new textures for each item to be put into a vendor, which incurs upload costs, along with needing to rent space to now host the vendors. Now for some this might not be an issue, but smaller gacha vendors are going to be obliterated. Especially since this is coming on with ZERO warning that an entire business has to shift in less than a months time. 

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1 minute ago, Mystical Heartsong said:

Except now you will need to take pics and make new textures for each item to be put into a vendor, which incurs upload costs, along with needing to rent space to now host the vendors. Now for some this might not be an issue, but smaller gacha vendors are going to be obliterated. Especially since this is coming on with ZERO warning that an entire business has to shift in less than a months time. 

You need to rent space for an in-world vendor anyway, whether it's a gacha machine or a 7-screen Caspervend thing. Or just throw it on the MP.

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29 minutes ago, Animal Haiku said:

If gacha machines are illegal, why are toy vending machines in super markets, eh?  Same mechanics, same game of chance on a known set.  How is this any different? Is legality the actual issue?

 

 

I'll refer you to a previous comment that I made:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/475318-new-gacha-policy-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=2330608

image.png.7ea0617f3d9ae1681234ac906b7aafe0.png

 

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4 minutes ago, Mystical Heartsong said:

Except now you will need to take pics and make new textures for each item to be put into a vendor, which incurs upload costs, along with needing to rent space to now host the vendors. Now for some this might not be an issue, but smaller gacha vendors are going to be obliterated. Especially since this is coming on with ZERO warning that an entire business has to shift in less than a months time. 

There has been warning if you had been paying attention to gaming news. It's been coming for a long time. Even I have known it for at least 2 years now and I rarely pay any attention to gaming news.

LL is covering their butts on this and in doing so they are covering our butts as well. 

There is also the fact that if they have an inworld store they already are renting space for vendors. The only place they can't put down vendors would be those regions that don't allow it by covenant or Linden Homes.

Where there is a will, there is a way. If these gacha sellers want to stay in business they will find a way to do so without violating the ToS. It's up to them how to deal with the situation.

Edited by Silent Mistwalker
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5 minutes ago, cutencuddlybreedables said:

My questions:
- Is a "random trait" [say a coat, eye or whatever] on a starter animal considered a gacha? 
- Is any breedable that uses a "food for breeding" considered a gacha?

Why would breeding be considered a gacha?

If I play a dog breeding game where I breed a poodle with a Labrador in the hopes of getting a labradoodle but get a normal poodle instead, a lootbox mechanic the same as a gacha?

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