New Gacha Policy Discussion

[InannaSin]

7 hours ago, Dictatorshop said:

  What about places like the Arcade which are ALL gacha?  

Maybe replace the gatcha machines with skill games that are pay-to-play? They could award the "gatcha merchandise" as prizes for winning certain goals

 

[Yuki Suki]

3 minutes ago, Tremere Ember said:

I think this is a terrible idea; this is going eliminate events such as the Epiphany and the Arcade! Gachas are a way for people to be generous and surprise their friend with a gift and that thrill of getting rare or ultra-rare. I have helped newbies, passing them gacha eyes to get them started on their look. For the people saying that it is "long overdue", have you ever thought that this could raise store prices? And will this also affect the Powder Pack? You don't know what you're getting when you buy the Powder Pack. Or is this just focusing on sales from gacha machines? This makes me think of a content creator that has passed away in RL; she would have been destroyed by this decision. Her business heavily relied on her sales at the Arcade. Not only is this bad for creators, but this is a real bummer for consumers that have enjoyed exchanging gachas with their friends.

The value and rarity of an item is subjective.

I have helped newbies too, gacha isnt the only transferable option.

[Tristan Fraker]

A lot of folks are pointing to the breedables issue as maybe falling under the gacha ban.  Many, myself included, have substantial investments in breedables.  Would it be possible to clarify the future operations of the breedables market in light of this ban?

[Tremere Ember]

1 minute ago, Hanjo Harvey said:

The value and rarity of an item is subjective.

I have helped newbies too, gacha isnt the only transferable option.

Really? It's the only one I can think of unless you gift it. It was an affordable way to help out newbies. I have many items on my inventory, and the only ones that are transferable are from a gachas 

[abcde129]

Will this affect random bundle sellers for breedables? I just bought my first one a few weeks ago, and I am honestly not sure if it is seen as a gacha item or not...

[Kadah Coba]

16 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

Patch, when you do your FAQ, please address

1. What laws in what countries and what regulatory climate are you concerned with? Has anyone be convicted or lost a lawsuit so far?

2. If you use the criterion of "paying and receiving something  back by chance"... then will you also outlaw the following:

- Current Linden Home allocation

- Sploders

- 7Seas Fishing using bait

Number 1 is falling in to lawyers territory so do not expect much.

SL Premium isn't purely for only Linden Homes, those are just one of the land types it allows for. Though the current why to get them could be improved.

Pretty sure sploders (if they are what I remember from forever ago) are likely running afoul of a number of existing and older gambling type regulations in a lot of jurisdictions.

7Seas would be a micro-transaction game mechanic instead of loot box. Would be affected by different, but similar laws against predatory monetization schemes.

 

Predatory loot boxes from triple A and mobile game studios are the issue. The problem is the regulatory net needed to effectively capture them needs to be wide since the studios behind predatory loot boxes will just slightly tweak the mechanics, or simply just the vocabulary, as to get it reclassified to something similar that may still be allowed.

We are talking about studios who, if they could get away with it (and I wouldn't be surprised if they are already doing this...), would make the drop chances "personalized" per-user via an analysis of their activity on social and other medias.

[JUSTUS Palianta]

Yes a random bundles seller is a gacha machine.

[Yuki Suki]

Just now, Tremere Ember said:

Really? It's the only one I can think of unless you gift it. It was an affordable way to help out newbies. I have many items on my inventory, and the only ones that are transferable are from a gachas 

Yes I do agree it is much more affordable in many cases. sadly, it has come to this now. It is how it is.

Yes gifting is one way, and also I bought some full perm items to give out too.

[Rowan Amore]

24 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

Current Linden Home allocation

Not in any way the same as a gatcha.  Now, if you had to pay again to get another home, that might be considered gambling.  You're free to change houses at anytime for no additional cost.  Just because a certain home isn't available at a specific.time, makes no difference.  There are only so many homes available in any given region.  It's always been that way.  You've never been able to pick the exact house in a specific region and why GoH is so popular.

[Drayke Newall]

Why gacha's are counted as gambling and why LL have probably made the change was discussed already at length earlier this year in a now locked thread here:

It includes links to documents of EU investigations and reports on page 14 that is being looked into for the banning and enforcement of such practices (they define SL gacha's as lootboxes - not by name) as well as many examples of how gacha's resemble lootboxes etc. I would dare say this change LL have made reflects how the EU will in all likelihood be advancing this soon to actual law.

[Maryanne Solo]

Gonecha! Wuhuuuuu! No more gambling~! \0/ 

[Gryphon Ronas]

24 minutes ago, Bloodsong Termagant said:

i have a specific question... which i suppose will get lost in the discussion.  but anyway.

 

i have a couple sets of novelty avatars (get your mind out of the gutter!)  they're in a vendor for 50L each. 

right next to them is a gacha machine, with the same items, all the same rarity, for the same 50L.  what it's FOR... is for people like me who want a cheap novelty item, but can't decide which one to get, and just want to get a random one.

 

i guess that's still technically 'illegal,' even though a person could decide to buy an exact item, for the same price, at the vendor right next to it? 

 

How about making a spin the wheel type thing to replace the gacha.   Can't decide on one? Spin the wheel for a suggestion.  

If they spin a 5, they buy #5 and you have accomplished the same thing. The key difference is that when they made that transaction, they know what they were getting.

[Drayke Newall]

1 minute ago, Gryphon Ronas said:

How about making a spin the wheel type thing to replace the gacha.   Can't decide on one? Spin the wheel for a suggestion.  

If they spin a 5, they buy #5 and you have accomplished the same thing. The key difference is that when they made that transaction, they know what they were getting.

Knowing what you get is not the problem. It is that you are paying money to play at a chance (a percentage such as common, rare, epic etc) of getting a known prize.

[Adeon Writer]

money() and llFrand don't belong in the same script.

Linden could very easily forbid this by policy, I think.

[Yuki Suki]

2 minutes ago, Gryphon Ronas said:

How about making a spin the wheel type thing to replace the gacha.   Can't decide on one? Spin the wheel for a suggestion.  

If they spin a 5, they buy #5 and you have accomplished the same thing. The key difference is that when they made that transaction, they know what they were getting.

Do they have to pay for each spin or spinning is free until the wheel land on the item they want?

if Pay - then its the same thing as the gacha we have now.
if Free - then why add additional layer to buy an item?

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Adeon Writer said:

This new type of script skirts around the ban, while still being the thing the spirit of the law is trying to prevent.

That's why I'd like a response.

i would like an official answer as well

and I think the answer will most likely be No

as Prokofy has pointed out this decision is being made in light of the regulatory climate. Regulators when deciding to bring charges tend to do this in the spirit of the regulations and leave it to the courts to determine the letter of the law

most companies aren't interested in being charged for being in breach of the spirit of the regulations, Linden is no different to any other company in this respect

[Marsellus Walcott]

Apparently, quite a few people are bringng up US laws as if LL only had to worry about that. That simply isn't true. Far from it.

Last year, SimilarWeb showed that only 29,70% of all traffic in Secondlife.com was from the US.

As one can see, the vast majority of SL traffic comes from abroad. So LL has to take into account how those laws applies to them and their customer base as well.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Marsellus Walcott

[Scum Pond]

2 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

money() and llFrand don't belong in the same script.

Linden could very easily forbid this by policy, I think.

put it different scripts and llMessageLinked the scripts

[Gryphon Ronas]

1 minute ago, Drayke Newall said:

Knowing what you get is not the problem. It is that you are paying money to play at a chance (a percentage such as common, rare, epic etc) of getting a known prize.

Yes.  And you said that the reason for it was for those that can't choose and just want something random.  The difference in my suggestion was that the item making teh random pick is not the same item that is being paid, and when they do pay they are not getting a random selection.

Read back through the thread, I know it's long, but Patch has provided the answers on all of this.

[Coffee Pancake]

35 minutes ago, Bloodsong Termagant said:

i guess that's still technically 'illegal,' even though a person could decide to buy an exact item, for the same price, at the vendor right next to it? 

Yup. Banned.

[Gryphon Ronas]

3 minutes ago, Hanjo Harvey said:

Do they have to pay for each spin or spinning is free until the wheel land on the item they want?

if Pay - then its the same thing as the gacha we have now.
if Free - then why add additional layer to buy an item?

Because they are taking a free spin for a suggestion, then following it or not.

The item you pay cannot be the item making the random selection.

[Coffee Pancake]

15 minutes ago, Tremere Ember said:

Really? It's the only one I can think of unless you gift it. It was an affordable way to help out newbies. I have many items on my inventory, and the only ones that are transferable are from a gachas 

THIS.

Typical avatar accessories are copy only, if you're really lucky you will get mod.

They are NEVER supplied transfer as the store owner intentionally wants you to buy a new one for every avatar.

Gacha are nocopy mod transfer.

[Ceejay Harvey]

4 hours ago, SilenzZzz Mistwalker said:

my concerns / questions would be this.

 

1. breedables, creators who make items, where there is a 'chance' at a random traits. that you have to pay to keep alive and so forth in order to get those traits.

2. using a random script to sell a certain type of above mentioned item for a lower price, out of a machine to others. all items the same. but they are no copy items. 

3. LE releases from breedables that have a random gender upon purchase

 

It's actually an interesting  question.

It is possible that anything with a random chance with  rarity, and re-sale value, could fall foul of the  new situation. As thousands of lindens are spent, trying to find the right combination of scripts to make the right colour and shape, to put a rare up for auction.

But then Breadables are, with the exception  of the guy that makes the plants, last time I looked in detail, just pyramid schemes where your also paying through the nose to keep the  scripts from killing your virtual  pet.

or you can pay more through the nose to sterilize them.

[ChloeComeHither]

7 hours ago, meowmeowzer said:

To people who are comparing gachas with gumball machines: this is absolutely NOT the case.

A gumball machine has prizes that are all the same. You give the machine a value, you get the same value back. The rates are equal.

A gacha machine has prizes that are more and less valuable. You are gambling to see if you can multiply the value you spent (by winning a rare, or a desired prize) or not (by winning a dud prize, or a less desirable). The rates are highly stacked against eachother.

Unless EVERY gacha is built the exact same way, with the exact same odds, then it IS gambling. You guys are just too addicted to it to see otherwise.

Tell that to the 4 year old that wanted the ring but got the stickers. 

And what about like claw machines and other games where you more than likely walk away with nothing?  By these definitions, every arcade in the U.S. would be considered a gambling den.

 

[Gryphon Ronas]

2 minutes ago, Ceejay Harvey said:

or you can pay more through the nose to sterilize them.

Or, if you are blessed with a nose that can take all the paying-through, you can make then "forevers"

Gonna need a strong nose for that one