acceptable forms of discrimination

[Amanda Crisp]

9 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

I have to say I've never been discriminated against for not using voice.  Well, except for the idiots just looking for a quickie and need voice verification to....ya know.  You can tell just by opening  their profile and seeing all the sex groups.  Other than that, I don't really hang out where voice is activated and even if it is, I seldom even listen.

Thats awesome Rowan 🙂 I acknowledge that SL is a big place and hopefully experiences are mostly positive !

Still...sneaky Bias manifests itself in a myriad of ways that we normally don’t make a big deal of.

”You don’t voice so you must be cross-gendered in SL” which is really saying more about the gender preference or possibly the phobia of the speaker.

But there are people whose friendship/good will is contingent on *you* very obviously fitting into *their* comfort zone.

I guess if someone *is* here for sex, they might have a reasonable concern about not triggering themselves in the process - but sometimes the way they go about out is a little over-the -top. Of course, they’re being a little smug if they think everyone they chat up might actually GIVE them pixel sex.

Life is very subjective.......

To clarify; I’m not all up—in-arms about the issue. I largely accept is as part of “People being people” and since my SL occupation involves making people want to hang around at my workplaces; I let it roll off.

I’m an entertainer, not an evangelist. Living my life is more important than complaining about it.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Amanda Crisp

[Amanda Crisp]

15 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

That may be true in some parts of SL, and I am prepared to believe it's true in the specific sector that you are focusing on. A non-voice DJ would probably be at a disadvantage. I haven't spent much time in SL clubs for at least ten years now, though. Wandering around most of SL myself, I rarely run across people using voice.  I have mine switched on so that I can hear voice if it's being used, but I have never used it myself since it was introduced in 2007, and very few of my friends do.  I suspect that "voice-centric" really depends on where you are in SL.

I’d say you’re right Rolig! Here in SL, I’m married into the Club biz (happily) so that probably defines my experiences.

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 9/10/2020 at 10:01 PM, Amanda Crisp said:

Often in club work, you encounter people who are virtually present but not participating (or watching) Local chat because they and their social group are on some version of Voice (this can be Skype, SL Voice or something else).  I know this because I have a couple of friends that do this using Discord and who include me in their funny shenanigans via Discord Text 

People are free to do as they please, so no biggie there 🙂

That has nothing to do with the main topic; but with the prevalence of voice-communication overlaid with SL.

So one does not need to be in a sex sim to encounter this, you just need to work a lot on the SL club/events scene 🙂

One problem with this; some club managers see avatars just standing around (not interacting) and choose to hit the DJ up for “poor customer engagement” ala “If you were also on Voice, they would pay attention” (decoded - they would tip if you were verbal). Personally, I think those folks exhibit that same preference wherever they go - so the bias in play here would be on the part of the Manager.

That certainly is a change from the early days of no voice at all in SL to clubs/venues leaving voice turned off deliberately because live DJ and/or performer. Key word there being live. These days managers are insisting on voice? Someone is being buffaloed and it isn't me.

Insisting on voice is not such a good idea, unless you are deliberately excluding those who have hearing loss or are fully deaf. That is discriminating against disabled people. It doesn't matter if the discrimination is done intentionally or not. What is done is done. This is what happens when people don't think things through thoroughly and I'm seeing more and more of it every day. Not good.

[cunomar]

SL is mostly silent in open chat because if you say the sky is blue you will offend some muppet who despite banning people just to show they can march the streets protesting about police abuse of power , hence all you might hear is the jibberish nonsense "banter" that alienates new players without even trying to .

I know its impossible to apply with any form of fair play but i would love to see LL somehow introduce a policy of randomly reversing the judgment so the one who does the kicking finds themselves booted 🤣

It would at least give pause for thought to the trigger happy fun police .

[Syo Emerald]

55 minutes ago, cunomar said:

SL is mostly silent in open chat because if you say the sky is blue you will offend some muppet who despite banning people just to show they can march the streets protesting about police abuse of power , hence all you might hear is the jibberish nonsense "banter" that alienates new players without even trying to .

I know its impossible to apply with any form of fair play but i would love to see LL somehow introduce a policy of randomly reversing the judgment so the one who does the kicking finds themselves booted 🤣

It would at least give pause for thought to the trigger happy fun police .

You sound like someone who insults people and griefs places and then cries, because the owner of the place put an end to your "fun", because thats the person who can kick you, the one who owns a place. So there really is no sense in your "reverse it" suggestion. Also stop assuming we are all US american.

[Nick0678]

On 9/9/2020 at 10:40 PM, Bree Giffen said:

I think LL needs to take a stand against all forms of discrimination and remove the ability to ban anyone. Remove all ban lines, orbs, everything!...

Well that would be ok with me, I wouldn't mind going to a Skill Gaming Region with my avatar dressed as a kid or even as a naked adult and play some games... Why not.

Now back to reality of how things work, Regions/Land costs REAL MONEY (and in many cases plenty of it), they are not provided for free and the ability to ban or deny entry to a region, land or whatever is the Owners/Managers right.

Entering is not a right, it's actually a privilege provided by the person, who pays those real money, to anyone that they want for as long as they want.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Nick0678

[Caroline Takeda]

On 9/9/2020 at 3:09 PM, Dillin Woodward said:

I get that.  

But what I meant was 'public' in the sense that its a market, or a bar, or someplace that is open to the general public. 

I fully understand that SIMS are owned privately or in groups.

 

And no, I'm not trolling. you will all notice I've never posted to this forum before. This forum is not my thing.

Was an honest question. 

Hi Dillin,

I think we must make a distinction here between mainland and private estates.

A private estate is just that: A private estate. It is your virtual world within a virtual world. Your money, your rules. Your the Gouvernor so to speak. Period. End of Story.

On the mainland the overruling covenant are the TOS. Here the Lindens are the Gouvernor and could (if they wanted to) establish a rule, that if a place allows public access, such discriminatory behavior is not allowed. I would welcome this becoming part of the mainland policies. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Caroline Takeda

[Kyrah Abattoir]

On 9/8/2020 at 5:15 PM, Dillin Woodward said:

I have a question about acceptable forms of discrimination that might be allowed here in SL.

Are we allowed to ban avatars from a sim, based on sexual orientation, race, age, or gender?

In other words, in an otherwise public sim, can I ban all gay? or all trans people, or all women,  solely based on their orientation, or gender?

The question is this:  Is this behavior allowed, and if not where is that stated?

-Dillin

You can technically ban anyone, for any reason, or no reason, your land in SL is a virtual equivalent of a private home.

There are numerous "boy only", "girl only", "humans only", or "furries only" locations.

(I'm hoping one day to see places pop up that discriminate against high polygon avatars but that's a story for another time)

Who you are in SL is mostly defined by your avatar and your profile page, so typically those bans only affect those who refuse to comply to the required avatar style.

Now as far as dicriminating against real world attributes, this is where it might (possibly?) get dicey.

  

15 minutes ago, Caroline Takeda said:

A private estate is just that: A private estate. It is your virtual world within a virtual world. Your money, your rules. Your the Gouvernor so to speak. Period. End of Story.

Almost, but not really, estates are still subject to the SecondLife ToS and are very much not their own thing in that regard, the main difference being that, unlike on the mainland, you can be completely barred from access.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

7 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

(I'm hoping one day to see places pop up that discriminate against high polygon avatars but that's a story for another time)

What about the converse? I know of at least one RP venue that refuses to allow non-mesh avatars to enter.

[Alwin Alcott]

17 minutes ago, Caroline Takeda said:

 

I think we must make a distinction here between mainland and private estates.
A private estate ....
On the mainland the overruling covenant are the TOS.

this is making a seperation that isn't true. The TOS are the sme for Private ánd Mainland regions, no difference at all.
TOS has also not really anything to do with public or private. Except some Estate rights, a mainland owner has the same possibilities as a private region owner. Both can set their rules within the TOS and Guidelines, and even within maturity rating. But never less than what LL requires as minimum. It's totally legitime to prohibit nudity or adult content at adult rated regions. But never the other way round that its possible to allow adult content at general regions (also nót at general rated private regions!)

Public land is LL land open to everybody ( with restrictions even from regional maturity and covenants/guidelines) Private land is all owned mainland, Linden Homes and private regions.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

11 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

What about the converse? I know of at least one RP venue that refuses to allow non-mesh avatars to enter.

Well if it already exist there is no wishing for it right?

Edited September 24, 2020 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Alwin Alcott]

22 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

(I'm hoping one day to see places pop up that discriminate against high polygon avatars but that's a story for another time)

basicly you could share it under already existing anti lag activities as script meters and Render Cost checking.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

basicly you could share it under already existing anti lag activities as script meters and Render Cost checking.

If only we were given decent tools to do so.

Sometimes I get the feeling that Linden Labs did everything they could to ensure that despite giving us a semi useful metric, (that can be gamed ridiculously still) landowners couldn't start to push for more optimized content this way.

A bit like they always try to avoid hurting land barons too much.

[Syo Emerald]

42 minutes ago, Caroline Takeda said:

On the mainland the overruling covenant are the TOS.

The entire grid is ruled by the TOS. No exceptions.

[Taramafor]

On 9/10/2020 at 8:11 PM, Paul Hexem said:

Someone is always going to feel in some way left out of nearly every conceivable situation.

Being able to cope with that feeling and move on is a life lesson not taught enough anymore.

When it comes to actions and how people behave, sure.

But "for just existing"? Big difference.

It is a life lesson. But it's not an excuse to allow yourself to be looked down on either. The real lesson is learning to stand up for yourself and to fight for that acceptance. Heck, sometimes that's literal. It's kind of sweet how a son fights for a fathers love. Or how two people that just met fight to be understood. This comes down to HOW you do that.

I don't "move on" from that if someone looks down on me. I make them understand by looking into a mirror. Sure, they're not me, but if they complained about something and then did it themselves... Bingo. The perfect comparison. They argue with themselves at that point.

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, Taramafor said:

When it comes to actions and how people behave, sure.

But "for just existing"? Big difference.

No difference.

There's always going to be people that don't like X, whatever X is.

Now, X can spend their entire lives fighting with that selection of people that don't like them, or move on and live happy, productive lives that aren't influenced by the people that don't like them.

So again I reiterate, being able to shrug and move on isn't taught enough anymore, because we're too busy coddling people and telling them that they're the most special and everyone has to like them or risk being cancelled!

[Chroma Starlight]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

No difference.

There's always going to be people that don't like X, whatever X is.

Now, X can spend their entire lives fighting with that selection of people that don't like them, or move on and live happy, productive lives that aren't influenced by the people that don't like them.

So again I reiterate, being able to shrug and move on isn't taught enough anymore, because we're too busy coddling people and telling them that they're the most special and everyone has to like them or risk being cancelled!

What if it's a conspiracy of people so hell-belt to get at you that they will crash governments, end civilization, start wars, or spread plagues just in hopes of removing you as an individual or as an idea from the world? What if they broadcast their message in every city and town across a country? What if they form alliances and affiliations organized primarily on the principle of removing your culture from the world? What if they're chasing you out of your community, your job, your life? You rebuild and it happens again because they are legion and spreading like virii? I suppose you're just supposed to keep abandoning your life and fleeing like a refugee who never gets to own anything, develop in the ways that require stability and certainty, never has agency because the agents of malaise systemically oppress it with 1001 cuts and indignities and losses? What then when waters are lapping at the doors of your life ready to subsume?

Edited September 24, 2020 by Chroma Starlight

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Now, X can spend their entire lives fighting with that selection of people that don't like them, or move on and live happy, productive lives that aren't influenced by the people that don't like them.

Spoken a little bit like someone who has never found himself on the receiving end of really pervasive and intrusive discrimination? Maybe?

[Rowan Amore]

The thing is..you have to stop at some point in thinking you can change everyone.  There has always been and will always be people who look down on other people for some reason or another.  The point @Paul Hexemmakes is valid.  You can fight against it your entire life and it won't change.  Or, as I choose to do, hold my head high and realize that in doing so, Ive given them no power over me.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

The thing is..you have to stop at some point in thinking you can change everyone.  There has always been and will always be people who look down on other people for some reason or another.  The point @Paul Hexemmakes is valid.  You can fight against it your entire life and it won't change.  Or, as I choose to do, hold my head high and realize that in doing so, Ive given them no power over me.

If we're talking about people not "liking" me, yes, then sure.

If, on the other hand, we are discussing -- as I thought we were -- discrimination, then, no. You fight back, intelligently and effectively. Because that is how change happens.

[Rowan Amore]

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If we're talking about people not "liking" me, yes, then sure.

If, on the other hand, we are discussing -- as I thought we were -- discrimination, then, no. You fight back, intelligently and effectively. Because that is how change happens.

Against discrimination  in general, I agree.  If a specific person hates me because I'm black, all the fighting back in the world will.do no good.  If a SIM owner discriminates based on the color of my skin, what exactly will getting upset about it do.   I'll certainly tell everyone I know not to go but for me to get into it with them is pointless.  There will always be people who hate.  You have to pick the battles worth winning.

ETA:  I think, as far as SL is concerned at least, word of mouth about a specific place that discriminates or perhaps a pick in  your profile to let everyone who reads.it know, is going to be more effective than personally getting upset and in anyone's face .  It's still their right to allow certain people or not and I'd hate .more for them to lose that right.

Edited September 24, 2020 by RowanMinx

[cunomar]

12 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

You sound like someone who insults people and griefs places and then cries, because the owner of the place put an end to your "fun", because thats the person who can kick you, the one who owns a place. So there really is no sense in your "reverse it" suggestion. Also stop assuming we are all US american.

oops did i offend you princess , is the sky not blue or was it your wrongly assuming i had a very mild dig at a specific nationality rather than the international "woke" crowd . Or is it because my views don't match yours 100% verbatim 🙄

Incidentally my previous comment relates to things i witnessed when i had a very positive attitude towards SL never judging anybody , trying to cheer them up , encouraging , and devoting far too much time to being a shoulder to cry on .

I challenge you to find anyone in SL who feels i betrayed their trust , and i thank you for proving my point so perfectly .

Incidentally i have been banned from 3 places in my 3 years , the first time i chilled and chatted there a few times a week for about 7 months before a complete stranger booted me and followed up with a heap of abuse . Shrugs , can't complain about that given that sim very specifically states "no male avs" and i was very obviously a male av even if i was wearing a dress all that time 😁.

2nd place was pretty much my full time hangout for over a year until i blocked someone who seemed to think i had a sacred duty to adore them even if i didn't like them and the block resulted in an obsessive vendetta which had me banned and followed from sim to sim until i quit walking and talking .

3rd place (the vendetta followed me there but i was still ignoring) it hands up i didn't read the rules so i spent a few months there chatting and getting along with people learning only after i got booted that i had been breaking the dress code all the while i'd been there

As i said my "reverse" suggestion is likely impossible to implement , it was offered merely as a suggestion that LL can touch the untouchables some of whom could do with a reminder in humility . 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by cunomar

[iceing Braveheart]

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/i-was-never-evil-monster-until-you-decided-i-was

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, cunomar said:

oops did i offend you princess , is the sky not blue or was it your wrongly assuming i had a very mild dig at a specific nationality rather than the international "woke" crowd . Or is it because my views don't match yours 100% verbatim 🙄

You're a charmer.

I can't imagine why people wouldn't want you around. You must be a hoot at parties.

[Chaser Zaks]

14 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

(I'm hoping one day to see places pop up that discriminate against high polygon avatars but that's a story for another time)

 

Unfortunately that'd ban a good 75%. :(