acceptable forms of discrimination

[Maryanne Solo]

I feel it is my pixel duty to inform the OP that even when 
creating a post, any emoji involving a human part can be colour changed.
I mean..... is THAT ok with you ?👀?

[Lewis Luminos]

I think the real thing that the OP has got wrong is the definition of "public". Public areas are those which are owned by Linden Lab - infohubs, for example, and the roads & community areas in Bellisseria, or abandoned land. Linden Lab does not ban anyone from these places (except people who are banned from SL altogether). 

Any parcel that is owned by a resident, is by definition, not public. The resident may choose to allow or restrict access to some or all other residents but they have total freedom to make that choice themselves, and the parcel remains a private venue no matter how open they choose to make it. Most such choices are based on the type of venue - for instance banning men from an all-womens' club. Or banning women from a gay mens' club. Mostly they are sex-clubs; if you have a sex club that is targeted at people of a certain orientation, you don't really want people hanging out there if they don't fit the target demographic.

I have never personally heard of a place that actually bans people for being gay. Though I did once get a couple of gay guys visit my club and ask if it was okay for them to dance together. I told them that yes of course it was okay, and they then told me that a host in a certain other well-known jazz club had asked them to not dance together as a couple because it "spoiled their image".  That was years and years ago. I don't think anyone would dare do such a thing now; they'd lose so many customers and attract so much negative attention that they'd go out of business.

 

 

[Dillin Woodward]

2 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I think the real thing that the OP has got wrong is the definition of "public".

I get that.  

But what I meant was 'public' in the sense that its a market, or a bar, or someplace that is open to the general public. 

I fully understand that SIMS are owned privately or in groups.

 

And no, I'm not trolling. you will all notice I've never posted to this forum before. This forum is not my thing.

Was an honest question. 

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

I get that.  

But what I meant was 'public' in the sense that its a market, or a bar, or someplace that is open to the general public. 

I fully understand that SIMS are owned privately or in groups.

 

And no, I'm not trolling. you will all notice I've never posted to this forum before. This forum is not my thing.

Was an honest question. 

There used to be a time where it never hurt to ask..hehehehe

[Alwin Alcott]

13 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

 

I fully understand that SIMS are owned privately or in groups.

Regions

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Dillin Woodward said:

4 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

I think the real thing that the OP has got wrong is the definition of "public".

I get that.  

But what I meant was 'public' in the sense that its a market, or a bar, or someplace that is open to the general public. 

I fully understand that SIMS are owned privately or in groups.

 

And no, I'm not trolling. you will all notice I've never posted to this forum before. This forum is not my thing.

Was an honest question. 

Ahh...I see where you're coming from now -- businesses!

In the US there are many challenges regarding whether a business can legally discriminate whereas on private property rights are clearly given to the home owner.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Rolig Loon]

53 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

But what I meant was 'public' in the sense that its a market, or a bar, or someplace that is open to the general public. 

I fully understand that SIMS regions are owned privately or in groups.

 

And no, I'm not trolling. you will all notice I've never posted to this forum before. This forum is not my thing.

Was an honest question. 

I appreciate that, and I think almost everyone responding here has treated it as an honest question. This is tricky territory, so there are likely to be conflicting interpretations and unsettled emotions.  You are certainly not the first person to pose versions of the topic.  Personally, I think the way to resolve some of the contradictions is to remember that SL is not RL.  We are a community of people from many countries around RL, and we are all "on vacation" in a strange land.  We are not at home, any more than we would be if we traveled thousands of miles away and found ourselves in a place with a different landscape, some people speaking a different native language, and nobody understanding all of the local rules.  Nobody, of course, except for the local police -- in this case Linden Lab.  

You can't expect your notion of what's "public" to be quite the same as it might be in your home town in RL. As several people have pointed out here, the only "public" spaces in SL are those owned by Linden Lab and left open for anyone to visit.  By their definition in the TOS and the Community Standards, all other land is "private", subject to whatever restrictions that the owner wants to apply, as long as those restrictions themselves don't violate the TOS.  That's the only standard that applies in this vacation world, and the only arbiter is Linden Lab.

[iceing Braveheart]

22 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

I always assume 90% of all "lesbians" in SL are actually dudes.

 

1 minute 50 second part

[Lindal Kidd]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:15 AM, Dillin Woodward said:

I have a question about acceptable forms of discrimination that might be allowed here in SL.

Are we allowed to ban avatars from a sim, based on sexual orientation, race, age, or gender?

In other words, in an otherwise public sim, can I ban all gay? or all trans people, or all women,  solely based on their orientation, or gender?

The question is this:  Is this behavior allowed, and if not where is that stated?

-Dillin

Well, now...this is actually an interesting question.  In my view, a lot depends on how you go about restricting access to your parcel.

As others have pointed out, a land owner can ban anyone she pleases, at any time, for any reason...or for no reason at all.  So, one answer to your question is "Yes, of course."  And this is not a bad policy, in my view.  She Who Owns The Land, Makes the Rules.

But...the Community Standards also says, right in the first paragraph:

Intolerance

Linden Lab encourages social interactions between users across multiple countries. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation is prohibited. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame users or groups are similarly prohibited.

So.  If you build a Nazi region, put up a bunch of swastikas, fill it with signs saying things like "Juden VERBOTEN!" and go around pasting all sorts of hate speech in your IMs and local chat...you are pretty likely to get in trouble over it.

A land owner's best policy is to simply ban, with no debate, no signs posted, no reasons given.  They may actually be hateful and intolerant people, who are busily banning all people from some disliked group.  But if they are silent as to their motivation, they are completely within their rights.

[Bree Giffen]

I think LL needs to take a stand against all forms of discrimination and remove the ability to ban anyone. Remove all ban lines, orbs, everything! LL must do this to prove they are not racists, misogynists, fascists, bigots, etc. The tech industry has made great strides in promoting equal right and the new owners of Linden Research should lead the way.

[Lewis Luminos]

7 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

I think LL needs to take a stand against all forms of discrimination and remove the ability to ban anyone. Remove all ban lines, orbs, everything! LL must do this to prove they are not racists, misogynists, fascists, bigots, etc. The tech industry has made great strides in promoting equal right and the new owners of Linden Research should lead the way.

And that would leave parcel owners vulnerable to griefers with no recourse to protect themselves.  SL would become a griefers playground and everyone else would just log off forever.

[Alwin Alcott]

8 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

I think LL needs to take a stand against all forms of discrimination and remove the ability to ban anyone. Remove all ban lines, orbs, everything! LL must do this to prove they are not racists, misogynists, fascists, bigots, etc. The tech industry has made great strides in promoting equal right and the new owners of Linden Research should lead the way.

unless they want to decimate their userbase it's not likely going to happen.

 

[Chroma Starlight]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

I think LL needs to take a stand against all forms of discrimination and remove the ability to ban anyone. Remove all ban lines, orbs, everything! LL must do this to prove they are not racists, misogynists, fascists, bigots, etc. The tech industry has made great strides in promoting equal right and the new owners of Linden Research should lead the way.

Part of the privilege of owning something is having some small measure of sovereign control over it. I think ban lines promote equality but also expose inequity, whether or not everyone perceives it, just like private ownership of land can tend to do too.

What about the forms of intolerance and harassment that the bans are the only last defense against? It's true they've been abused in some large communities, ultimately those problems go deeper than the land privilege mechanisms themselves, just like wrongful discrimination will tend to.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Chroma Starlight

[BilliJo Aldrin]

8 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Regions

Maybe they should call it a regionulator instead of a simulator 😁

[Taramafor]

Have you ever seen yourself as the worst person in the world just because you exist, wondering if you mere existence is why others are harmed?

Don't care what you are. It's your actions that define you.

I COULD make a sim to ban people for being X or into Y. I choose not too. Try isolating yourself for a year because you feel like you don't belong anywhere. You'll probably feel the same way.

More importantly history has shown over and over discrimination breeds violence and conflict. Regardless of the "what" or the reasons. People will lash out and retaliate when they feel oppressed. It's inevitable.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Taramafor said:

Have you ever seen yourself as the worst person in the world just because you exist, wondering if you mere existence is why others are harmed?

Don't care what you are. It's your actions that define you.

I COULD make a sim to ban people for being X or into Y. I choose not too. Try isolating yourself for a year because you feel like you don't belong anywhere. You'll probably feel the same way.

More importantly history has shown over and over discrimination breeds violence and conflict. Regardless of the "what" or the reasons. People will lash out and retaliate when they feel oppressed. It's inevitable.

I can't disagree with anything that you say here -- and, as it sounds as though you've been victimized yourself by a feeling of "not belonging," I'm terribly sorry to hear that you've felt alone.

Of course, the problems arise when it comes to determining how to treat those who victimize others. Allow NeoNazis or violent anti-semites into your club, for instance, and there's a good chance that people of colour, or those of the Jewish faith, are going to feel excluded and victimized -- not directly by you, but by those you have chosen to allow in. In a place I used to hang out in during my early years, there were a couple of "regulars" who had some clear emotional issues. They probably weren't "bigots" in a sort of intellectual way, but they sought attention by saying, and representing the most horrendously racist things. Both ended up being banned from the sim, and eventually permabanned by LL for extremely offensive conduct -- because to have not banned them would have meant a probable exodus of others who were not being offensive.

There's no easy answer to any of this, of course. I've suggested that I'm against banning certain kinds of behaviours and representations -- that treats the symptoms, and not the disease, and likely drives the awful behaviour underground, or to other more amenable places.

And, on the whole, I prefer your response which, while not perfect, is at least generous.

[Akane Nacht]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:15 PM, Dillin Woodward said:

I have a question about acceptable forms of discrimination that might be allowed here in SL.

Are we allowed to ban avatars from a sim, based on sexual orientation, race, age, or gender?

 

Since you specify "avatars" I would say: Yes it's fine, because it's a dress code. If I were to want to go to a *men only* space in SL, I can simply swap my avatar to a male one. That would be a matter of courtesy as I am a guest in their place. Same as if they wanted black tie and ballgown. Not sure how they'd know sexual orientation, mind, unless I was declaring it to everyone. I assume that would be behaviour based, ie hopping on the pose furniture. In which case the owner is well within their rights to tell me to get off their couch for any reason they choose. Again, I am a guest.

[Amanda Crisp]

This isn’t big-ticket discrimination, which is why it flies under the radar in SL.

If you’re speech-impaired here, you’re subject to all sorts of shenanigans.

Relationally and Inworld Employment-wise, you’re very much a second class citizen in the voice-centric world That is SL.

Amazingly, I can still find DJ gigs - but so with any such group; you have to hustle twice as hard just to stay even.

Does it stop me? No.

Other people can only define or stereotype you if you play along 🙂

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

I think LL needs to take a stand against all forms of discrimination and remove the ability to ban anyone. Remove all ban lines, orbs, everything! LL must do this to prove they are not racists, misogynists, fascists, bigots, etc. The tech industry has made great strides in promoting equal right and the new owners of Linden Research should lead the way.

It would also remove the ability to ban people who don't understand sarcasm, which is apparently a bigger issue than I thought.

[Jules Catlyn]

51 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

It would also remove the ability to ban people who don't understand sarcasm, which is apparently a bigger issue than I thought.

Sarcasm has died along with the right to make fun of everything you choose to make fun off. I see that most prevalent in standup comedy. Comedians being attacked over a joke they make. 

On the original subject: I see a private region as someone's home. They have a right to choose who they invite into their home. I might not agree with it but it is their right.

[Rolig Loon]

2 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

Relationally and Inworld Employment-wise, you’re very much a second class citizen in the voice-centric world That is SL.

That may be true in some parts of SL, and I am prepared to believe it's true in the specific sector that you are focusing on. A non-voice DJ would probably be at a disadvantage. I haven't spent much time in SL clubs for at least ten years now, though. Wandering around most of SL myself, I rarely run across people using voice.  I have mine switched on so that I can hear voice if it's being used, but I have never used it myself since it was introduced in 2007, and very few of my friends do.  I suspect that "voice-centric" really depends on where you are in SL.

[Paul Hexem]

17 hours ago, Taramafor said:

Have you ever seen yourself as the worst person in the world just because you exist, wondering if you mere existence is why others are harmed?

Don't care what you are. It's your actions that define you.

I COULD make a sim to ban people for being X or into Y. I choose not too. Try isolating yourself for a year because you feel like you don't belong anywhere. You'll probably feel the same way.

More importantly history has shown over and over discrimination breeds violence and conflict. Regardless of the "what" or the reasons. People will lash out and retaliate when they feel oppressed. It's inevitable.

Someone is always going to feel in some way left out of nearly every conceivable situation.

Being able to cope with that feeling and move on is a life lesson not taught enough anymore.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

Relationally and Inworld Employment-wise, you’re very much a second class citizen in the voice-centric world That is SL.

5 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

That may be true in some parts of SL, and I am prepared to believe it's true in the specific sector that you are focusing on. A non-voice DJ would probably be at a disadvantage. I haven't spent much time in SL clubs for at least ten years now, though. Wandering around most of SL myself, I rarely run across people using voice.  I have mine switched on so that I can hear voice if it's being used, but I have never used it myself since it was introduced in 2007, and very few of my friends do.  I suspect that "voice-centric" really depends on where you are in SL.

I am always a bit puzzled when people talk about the prevalence of voice in SL because, like Rolig, I very rarely run across people using it. And very few of my friends do, and even then only in particular circumstances (such as chatting one-on-one with a friend who also uses it). In fact, too, I know a fair number of DJs who don't use it - probably close to 50%.

It's interesting because it's another reminder of how we all move in self-defined "bubbles" in SL. Obviously, you, Amanda, go to places -- social venues? sex sims? -- where voice is prevalent, and that I just don't get to.

And the interesting thing about these "bubbles" is that they should, in theory, mitigate that feeling of "being out of place," because there are so many distinct cultures in SL. If one feels out of place because one doesn't use voice, then it's at least a bit reassuring to know that there are those of us who move in circles where it is almost never used, and where text communication is very much the norm.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Rowan Amore]

8 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

This isn’t big-ticket discrimination, which is why it flies under the radar in SL.

If you’re speech-impaired here, you’re subject to all sorts of shenanigans.

Relationally and Inworld Employment-wise, you’re very much a second class citizen in the voice-centric world That is SL.

Amazingly, I can still find DJ gigs - but so with any such group; you have to hustle twice as hard just to stay even.

Does it stop me? No.

Other people can only define or stereotype you if you play along 🙂

I have to say I've never been discriminated against for not using voice.  Well, except for the idiots just looking for a quickie and need voice verification to....ya know.  You can tell just by opening  their profile and seeing all the sex groups.  Other than that, I don't really hang out where voice is activated and even if it is, I seldom even listen.

[Amanda Crisp]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I am always a bit puzzled when people talk about the prevalence of voice in SL because, like Rolig, I very rarely run across people using it. And very few of my friends do, and even then only in particular circumstances (such as chatting one-on-one with a friend who also uses it). In fact, too, I know a fair number of DJs who don't use it - probably close to 50%.

It's interesting because it's another reminder of how we all move in self-defined "bubbles" in SL. Obviously, you, Amanda, go to places -- social venues? sex sims? -- where voice is prevalent, and that I just don't get to.

And the interesting thing about these "bubbles" is that they should, in theory, mitigate that feeling of "being out of place," because there are so many distinct cultures in SL. If one feels out of place because one doesn't use voice, then it's at least a bit reassuring to know that there are those of us who move in circles where it is almost never used, and where text communication is very much the norm.

Often in club work, you encounter people who are virtually present but not participating (or watching) Local chat because they and their social group are on some version of Voice (this can be Skype, SL Voice or something else).  I know this because I have a couple of friends that do this using Discord and who include me in their funny shenanigans via Discord Text 

People are free to do as they please, so no biggie there 🙂

That has nothing to do with the main topic; but with the prevalence of voice-communication overlaid with SL.

So one does not need to be in a sex sim to encounter this, you just need to work a lot on the SL club/events scene 🙂

One problem with this; some club managers see avatars just standing around (not interacting) and choose to hit the DJ up for “poor customer engagement” ala “If you were also on Voice, they would pay attention” (decoded - they would tip if you were verbal). Personally, I think those folks exhibit that same preference wherever they go - so the bias in play here would be on the part of the Manager.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Amanda Crisp