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On 11/19/2020 at 1:32 PM, Paul Hexem said:

"So again I reiterate, being able to shrug and move on isn't taught enough anymore, because we're too busy coddling people and telling them that they're the most special and everyone has to like them or risk being cancelled!"

This belief that we used to have thicker skins is patent nonsense. Offensive words and actions have been offensive a lot longer than you've been alive (or me, for that matter). What you're seeing is the people who are under assault stepping up and telling people they won't take it anymore. Moreover, you're seeing them being noticed instead of ignored or worse. Black people in the USA did not just shrug and move on under Jim Crow or the race riots whites perpetrated against them. They felt it all, from "never meet a white person's gaze straight on" to "A twelve-year-old got beaten and lynched because a white girl said he touched her." And don't get me started about how they felt being slaves. Or how there were abolitionists writing to protest the whole thing long before the Civil War.

When an idea exists, so does its opposite and variations on the baselines of each. There is nothing new about hating racism or misogyny or any other system of oppression you want to name. This is novel news to some folks, I know. But they really insist on being coddled and told the world was perfect before the annoying people started reminding them they were fed a line of crap about how the world works.

As for how that applies in SL? Honestly, I'm broader in tolerance than I am in RL over this stuff. I'd want a KKK sim shut down so fast it'd collapse their hoods. Nothing good comes from them. So many sims are white avis only by tradition and momentum that encoding it would merely be a red flag to a bull, though. People of traditionally oppressed groups setting up their own spaces in SL? Sure, go for it, no average user has to be able to go everywhere on the grid. Filtering for avatar type (i.e., furries)? It really does matter for atmosphere. An all-comers formal ballroom would be fun if it doesn't exist already. But folks like Frank's Place VIPs pay a ridiculous amount of money to gain access to a specific atmosphere. I don't want to see avatars breaking the rules there. It's not what you signed up for when you threw them the Ls. This applies as much to showing up in casual wear as it does to showing up in a Jomo avatar.

On 11/20/2020 at 7:04 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

Just because you and I don't agree, doesn't necessarily make the other wrong.  Everyone is entitled to their OPINION.  Sadly, even bigots and racists.

I side with Harlan Ellison on this one. Everyone is entitled to an INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. And ignorant people deserve to be shouted down. If we leave them alone and treat their opinions with as much weight as anyone else's, we get a lot of the crap RL is facing.

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15 minutes ago, Lysana McMillan said:

This belief that we used to have thicker skins is patent nonsense. Offensive words and actions have been offensive a lot longer than you've been alive (or me, for that matter). What you're seeing is the people who are under assault stepping up and telling people they won't take it anymore. Moreover, you're seeing them being noticed instead of ignored or worse. Black people in the USA did not just shrug and move on under Jim Crow or the race riots whites perpetrated against them. They felt it all, from "never meet a white person's gaze straight on" to "A twelve-year-old got beaten and lynched because a white girl said he touched her." And don't get me started about how they felt being slaves. Or how there were abolitionists writing to protest the whole thing long before the Civil War.

When an idea exists, so does its opposite and variations on the baselines of each. There is nothing new about hating racism or misogyny or any other system of oppression you want to name. This is novel news to some folks, I know. But they really insist on being coddled and told the world was perfect before the annoying people started reminding them they were fed a line of crap about how the world works.

As for how that applies in SL? Honestly, I'm broader in tolerance than I am in RL over this stuff. I'd want a KKK sim shut down so fast it'd collapse their hoods. Nothing good comes from them. So many sims are white avis only by tradition and momentum that encoding it would merely be a red flag to a bull, though. People of traditionally oppressed groups setting up their own spaces in SL? Sure, go for it, no average user has to be able to go everywhere on the grid. Filtering for avatar type (i.e., furries)? It really does matter for atmosphere. An all-comers formal ballroom would be fun if it doesn't exist already. But folks like Frank's Place VIPs pay a ridiculous amount of money to gain access to a specific atmosphere. I don't want to see avatars breaking the rules there. It's not what you signed up for when you threw them the Ls. This applies as much to showing up in casual wear as it does to showing up in a Jomo avatar.

I side with Harlan Ellison on this one. Everyone is entitled to an INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. And ignorant people deserve to be shouted down. If we leave them alone and treat their opinions with as much weight as anyone else's, we get a lot of the crap RL is facing.

People are entitled to be whatever they want even if that is ignorant.  I'm sorry but shouting and calling out bigots, racists and ignorant people will do nothing.  It never has and it never will.  If we lived in a perfect world, that might accomplish something but we don't and it won't.

If I don't let someone's opinion of me effect me, what do THEY gain?  It's just like internet trolls.  The more attention you give them, the louder they get.  

I'm sorry but I have better things to do with my time in SL than rail against discrimination.  

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5 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

People are entitled to be whatever they want even if that is ignorant.  I'm sorry but shouting and calling out bigots, racists and ignorant people will do nothing.  It never has and it never will.  If we lived in a perfect world, that might accomplish something but we don't and it won't.

Am I correct in assuming that Harriet Tubman is not one of your sheroes?

harriet tubman.jpg

Edited by Luna Bliss
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On 11/19/2020 at 3:32 PM, Paul Hexem said:
On 11/19/2020 at 2:07 PM, Luna Bliss said:

If I'm living as an atomized individual, free to move around in as an isolated self and choose who I want to associate with, and as free as anybody else to have access to available jobs and resources in society, then yes the @Paul Hexem solution makes sense. If somebody bugs me I just turn away and find somebody I can get along with.

The problem with Paul's solution though, is that this is not reality because we live in a multi-racial, multi-cultural society where we must associate with the community for survival, and it's all too easy to deny resources to those we don't like and cause them to suffer for it. In fact, when we don't like another usually we think we're superior and will automatically afford ourselves a greater piece of the pie because we think we deserve it.  This is why we need to increase understanding of the 'other', the person different from ourselves, in order for any lasting peace to occur -- we can't just walk away --this is not a viable solution.

Expand  

Nope. Still applies even if you want to take it to the real world. You just can't change some people. Learn to move on instead of wallowing in that negativity. 

What about those who fought for Civil Rights so that Blacks would not be treated as second class citizens, or for women who had no voice in society until they were afforded the right to vote -- should those suffering from these injustices and and those trying to help them live a better life simply accept the abuse and "move on" lest they be seen as "negative" for bringing up the issues? How is it negative to not accept abuse and pursue the beneficial avenues which might afford citizens justice and equality? How does the above fit into your theory that pursuing justice for these people is being "too busy coddling people and telling them that they're the most special and everyone has to like them or risk being cancelled"?

I think you could only have this "simply move on" attitude if you aren't aware of injustices that were remedied via direct action in the past as well as injustices which still exist today and could be changed through appropriate actions.
Sometimes, indeed, the best action is to just ignore and "move on", but sometimes it's best to champion for change.

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32 minutes ago, Lysana McMillan said:

I side with Harlan Ellison on this one. Everyone is entitled to an INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. And ignorant people deserve to be shouted down. If we leave them alone and treat their opinions with as much weight as anyone else's, we get a lot of the crap RL is facing.

And who shall be the judge of whether an opinion is informed? You're dragging us back a 100 years to when men decided that women and colored people weren't smart enough to have an informed opinion for voting.

Edited by Arielle Popstar
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5 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.  ~  Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Oh sure, they have a right to say it, but I have a right to say they're an asshat for being prejudiced too.  Really, if we'd frowned at these asshats making tacky put-down jokes around the water cooler about POC and women, if we'd had the courage to rock the boat and give a little social disapproval, many would have stopped long ago.

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17 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And who shall be the judge of whether an opinion is informed? You're dragging us back a 100 years to when men decided that women and colored people weren't smart enough to have an informed opinion for voting.

Um. Who decides?

Well, you do. And I do. And Rowan does, and Lysana, and pretty much anyone.

She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Lysana is not arguing for some kind of group-think or 1984ish state where everyone is forced to subscribe to a particular view. She's responding to those whose defense of ignorant or inadequately informed views tends to be "It's my opinion, and it's just as valid as yours."

Well, no. No, it's not -- not if that person's is founded in an ignorance of the facts, and mine is better informed.

I'm not so sanguine as to believe that a full of command of the "facts" on both sides is always going to lead to agreement -- how we interpret and weigh the facts of the case is important too. But it's actually often not that difficult to locate and correct the ignorance that often forms the basis of uninformed opinion.

And we not only can do that, but should do it. And, honestly, if I am ignorant of something (it happens!!!), I'm grateful when I'm corrected. Why would I want to be ignorant?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Um. Who decides?

Well, you do. And I do. And Rowan does, and Lysana, and pretty much anyone.

She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Lysana is not arguing for some kind of group-think or 1984ish state where everyone is forced to subscribe to a particular view. She's responding to those whose defense of ignorant or inadequately informed views tends to be "It's my opinion, and it's just as valid as yours."

Well, no. No, it's not -- not if that person's is founded in an ignorance of the facts, and mine is better informed.

I'm not so sanguine as to believe that a full of command of the "facts" on both sides is always going to lead to agreement -- how we interpret and weigh the facts of the case is important too. But it's actually often not that difficult to locate and correct the ignorance that often forms the basis of uninformed opinion.

And we not only can do that, but should do it. And, honestly, if I am ignorant of something (it happens!!!), I'm grateful when I'm corrected. Why would I want to be ignorant?

I'm not talking about a debatable subject.  I'm talking more.about bigots and racists.  There is nothing, no fact, no information that will ever make these people change their minds.  People have been shouting at them for centuries and yet each century breeds just as many as the last.

Some people are happy in their ignorance thinking they are somehow better than someone else for whatever reason.  Giving them NONE of my attention, not engaging at ALL with these types, makes my life much more pleasant.  I don't find beating.my head against a brick wall all the enjoyable.

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The end of patriarchy....is it possible?  I don't know, but if we don't fight against it, if we don't resist as much as we can during every era we exist on this earth, the result will be another Holocaust.

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1 minute ago, RowanMinx said:

I'm not talking about a debatable subject.  I'm talking more.about bigots and racists.  There is nothing, no fact, no information that will ever make these people change their minds.  People have been shouting at them for centuries and yet each century breeds just as many as the last.

Some people are happy in their ignorance thinking they are somehow better than someone else for whatever reason.  Giving them NONE of my attention, not engaging at ALL with these types, makes my life much more pleasant.  I don't find beating.my head against a brick wall all the enjoyable.

I find that completely understandable. And you're right: there are cases -- I could name a few high profile ones in RL -- where opinions that are ignorant, biased, racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. have been changed, but it's pretty rare.

But when I engage with a bigot here or in RL, it's most often not because I'm under any illusion that I'm going to change their opinion. If that opinion is expressed in any way that is public, I do so because it cannot be let stand unchallenged, lest others believe that it is valid, and founded upon reasonable principles. It's a version of the "evil succeeds when good people do nothing to stop it" argument: ignorance thrives when it is left unmolested and unchallenged.

I have often engaged people here who I know are not listening, literally, because they have me on ignore. I don't much care about them, to be honest: the very fact that they are ignoring me is a demonstration of how resistant they are to different perspectives, opinions, and the facts themselves.

I engage them because I'm not going to let hatred hang in the air unchallenged -- and because it is just possible that I might be assisting someone else who is listening in come to a better understanding of the issues.

Change, positive change, does happen. Attitudes towards misogyny, homophobia, racism, and other social ills have changed measurably and dramatically in the last 50 years -- indeed, within the last 5. But people will only change their minds when they have reason to do so. No one wakes up one morning having become spontaneously more liberal and progressive. And the "reason" to change is the developing public dialogue we have, need to have, about these issues.

The poet John Milton opposed (most) censorship on the grounds that allowing ideas free range to be heard and clash would eventually and inevitably lead to the triumph of truth over falsehood. Maybe. But I certainly subscribe to the view that nothing can change unless we voice our rationales for the need for change, even if those who are the most obvious targets have their fingers in their ears.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I find that completely understandable. And you're right: there are cases -- I could name a few high profile ones in RL -- where opinions that are ignorant, biased, racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. have been changed, but it's pretty rare.

But when I engage with a bigot here or in RL, it's most often not because I'm under any illusion that I'm going to change their opinion. If that opinion is expressed in any way that is public, I do so because it cannot be let stand unchallenged, lest others believe that it is valid, and founded upon reasonable principles. It's a version of the "evil succeeds when good people do nothing to stop it" argument: ignorance thrives when it is left unmolested and unchallenged.

I have often engaged people here who I know are not listening, literally, because they have me on ignore. I don't much care about them, to be honest: the very fact that they are ignoring me is a demonstration of how resistant they are to different perspectives, opinions, and the facts themselves.

I engage them because I'm not going to let hatred hang in the air unchallenged -- and because it is just possible that I might be assisting someone else who is listening in come to a better understanding of the issues.

Change, positive change, does happen. Attitudes towards misogyny, homophobia, racism, and other social ills have changed measurably and dramatically in the last 50 years -- indeed, within the last 5. But people will only change their minds when they have reason to do so. No one wakes up one morning having become spontaneously more liberal and progressive. And the "reason" to change is the developing public dialogue we have, need to have, about these issues.

The poet John Milton opposed (most) censorship on the grounds that allowing ideas free range to be heard and clash would eventually and inevitably lead to the triumph of truth over falsehood. Maybe. But I certainly subscribe to the view that nothing can change unless we voice our rationales for the need for change, even if those who are the most obvious targets have their fingers in their ears.

While I agree with what you say completely, in reality, in MY reality, I find I don't have the time nor the patience to deal with these people anymore.  I guess there came a point in my life where I didn't see anything changing.  In the last few years, even with people shouting more than ever, it only seems to have gotten worse.

So you'll all have to forgive me if I'm just tired of the endless fight.  I'm in a good place in my life now but I'll certainly stand behind my son when he picks up the sword.

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18 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

While I agree with what you say completely, in reality, in MY reality, I find I don't have the time nor the patience to deal with these people anymore.  I guess there came a point in my life where I didn't see anything changing.  In the last few years, even with people shouting more than ever, it only seems to have gotten worse.

So you'll all have to forgive me if I'm just tired of the endless fight.  I'm in a good place in my life now but I'll certainly stand behind my son when he picks up the sword.

I was listening to an old favourite, Billy Bragg, last night. I love him for his music, and for his activism and his passion, but also because he's self-deprecating and somewhat skeptical about it all. These two verses of Waiting for the Great Leap Forward stand out for me:

Quote

Mixing pop and politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forwards.

Jumble sales are organised and pamphlets have been posted
Even after closing time there's still parties to be hosted
You can be active with the activists
Or sleep in with the sleepers
While you're waiting for the Great Leap Forwards.

You may not consider yourself an "activist," but you aren't a "sleeper" either. And if you're bringing up your son to believe in basic human decency, compassion, and human rights, as I am absolutely certain you are, you are doing more than your part. That's how we move forward -- little by little with each new voice calling loudly, or quietly, for justice.

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

What about those who fought for Civil Rights so that Blacks would not be treated as second class citizens, or for women who had no voice in society until they were afforded the right to vote

They obviously argued their case to people that would listen. Screaming "you're a bigot!" at the bigots doesn't solve anything.

So again.

Learn to move on.

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4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

They obviously argued their case to people that would listen. Screaming "you're a bigot!" at the bigots doesn't solve anything.

So again.

Learn to move on.

This is exactly what I mean.  DOING constructive things to further a cause is great.  Engaging with people who have a certain mindset, be it racial, religious, gender, sexuality, is pointless.  

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28 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:
3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

What about those who fought for Civil Rights so that Blacks would not be treated as second class citizens, or for women who had no voice in society until they were afforded the right to vote

They obviously argued their case to people that would listen. Screaming "you're a bigot!" at the bigots doesn't solve anything.

So again.

Learn to move on.

Who screams "you're a bigot!" at bigots....is this something from the TwitterSphere you mean?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lysana McMillan said:

I side with Harlan Ellison on this one. Everyone is entitled to an INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. And ignorant people deserve to be shouted down. If we leave them alone and treat their opinions with as much weight as anyone else's, we get a lot of the crap RL is facing.

Hhmmmm, I myself am ignorant in the ways of quoting the wrong person..

Everybody is ignorant about something.. Maybe that's why it's so damn noisy around here! \o/ hehehe

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On 11/21/2020 at 9:07 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Who screams "you're a bigot!" at bigots....is this something from the TwitterSphere you mean?

 

 

Sure. It happens there, too. But you tell me, you're as guilty of it as anyone I've seen. If you want further clarification, you'll have to follow up another way, or we risk taking this way off topic.

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On 11/23/2020 at 4:44 PM, Paul Hexem said:
On 11/21/2020 at 8:07 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Who screams "you're a bigot!" at bigots....is this something from the TwitterSphere you mean?

 

 

Sure. It happens there, too. But you tell me, you're as guilty of it as anyone I've seen. If you want further clarification, you'll have to follow up another way, or we risk taking this way off topic.

Well, bigot is a strong word and I don't think I've seen anyone on the forum save 1 or 2 I'd apply that word to, and even with him I have my doubts.

Bigot, racist, prejudice, conscious bias, implicit bias......these all have different meanings.   We all have implicit bias due to our socialization, and this bias is unconscious for the most part, and it does cause POC to come out on the short end of the stick in many cases.

We also have to consider systemic racism. For example, if someone votes for a candidate they know will make life worse for Black people, are they racist?  Maybe, maybe not...could be they voted for that person because other considerations outside of race took precedence.  These issues are not easy to sort out.

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On 11/21/2020 at 6:25 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I was listening to an old favourite, Billy Bragg, last night. I love him for his music, and for his activism and his passion, but also because he's self-deprecating and somewhat skeptical about it all.

OT, perhaps should have put in PM, and really, it's all about me, so even worse than useless, but just wanted to say you reminded me of one of my fave things ever, Natalie Merchant and Michael Stipes doing John Prine's Hello In There with Billy Bragg at an English music festival (no, I wasn't there, but saw it on YouTube and have watched it for years):

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-finds-indiana-attorney-general-curtis-hill-groped/story?id=70634926

Thanks for reminding me to watch it again. So sad and haunting, and Billy Bragg is just the sweetest and so ego-free. ❤️

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1 hour ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

OT, perhaps should have put in PM, and really, it's all about me, so even worse than useless, but just wanted to say you reminded me of one of my fave things ever, Natalie Merchant and Michael Stipes doing John Prine's Hello In There with Billy Bragg at an English music festival (no, I wasn't there, but saw it on YouTube and have watched it for years):

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-finds-indiana-attorney-general-curtis-hill-groped/story?id=70634926

Thanks for reminding me to watch it again. So sad and haunting, and Billy Bragg is just the sweetest and so ego-free. ❤️

Pretty sure that's the wrong link, but that's ok -- I found it on my lonesome. And yes, it was lovely. Thank you. 🙂

 

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Pretty sure that's the wrong link, but that's ok -- I found it on my lonesome. And yes, it was lovely. Thank you. 🙂

JFC, yeah, wrong link. That was from yesterday or day before in a completely different forum (topic was the IN AG trying to stop the wife of a woman who gives birth automatically being listed as the mother, like married men are listed as the father...long story even more OT). I have not idea how I pasted that, sorry. One day I should learn to proofread my posts on forums, but today was not the day,~

Correct link for anyone interested:

Natalie Merchant - Hello In There (Live) - YouTube

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