Tilia takes over

[Beth Macbain]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

suppurating pustule 

Great band name!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Other than having to sign what most people believe to be an iron clad legally binding contract that they have no use for? Why agree to the terms of a service you aren't going to be using? By their own words Tilia is a subsidiary which means it operates as a completely separate business entity. Who in their right minds would sign a contract with a company they aren't/don't/won't be doing business with? Frankly, it is not an intelligent thing to do, legally.

I kind.of get that, although frankly functioning online means taking on all sorts of additional TOS agreements and the like that you neither want nor need.

The contract in this case is kind of pointless and without force if you're not using the service. 

I'm going to totally agree that I wish they weren't doing it this way. But I don't see any actual harm in having an account for a service that is going to impact upon me not at all, and is in effect, if not in legal terms, part of SL.

[Zeta Vandyke]

I wonder how many of the people screaming about privacy here post their pictures and all sorts of private information on places like facebook? Or even read the terms of agreement on any of the services they sign up to, or when installing software just click the "agree" button in a hurry because they need the software. Companies like Google their business model is collecting and using/selling your personal data, yet everyone uses it and signs up on their services. People putting their info online on job sites, linked in, dating apps, just about everywhere.

But now a company that you have used for their services for many years, ask for some aditional information only from people using a part of their services (cashing out) because they are legally bound by law to do so, and all of a sudden we worry about our privacy?

 

 

[Phoebe Avro]

5 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

I wonder how many of the people screaming about privacy here post their pictures and all sorts of private information on places like facebook? Or even read the terms of agreement on any of the services they sign up to, or when installing software just click the "agree" button in a hurry because they need the software. Companies like Google their business model is collecting and using/selling your personal data, yet everyone uses it and signs up on their services. People putting their info online on job sites, linked in, dating apps, just about everywhere.

But now a company that you have used for their services for many years, ask for some aditional information only from people using a part of their services (cashing out) because they are legally bound by law to do so, and all of a sudden we worry about our privacy?

 

 

I am privacy focused and have never used FB (fb is an evil bad actor) and there is not one photo of me on the net.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Phoebe Avro

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Companies like Google their business model is collecting and using/selling your personal data, yet everyone uses it and signs up on their services.

Google is an interesting parallel, actually. Create a YouTube account and you take on, by default, a whole suite of apps that you may never use, but that are busily harvesting every move you make, online and off.

I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that we shouldn't be complacent about what we sign up for, or what privacy we are willing to surrender. But I have to admit that Telia seems pretty benign in comparison with, say, Google and Facebook. Especially if you are not planning to cash out.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Zeta Vandyke]

3 minutes ago, Phoebe Avro said:

I am privacy focused and have never used FB (fb is an evil bad actor) and there is not one photo of me on the net.

Well I doubt LL is going to post our photo's on the net either, so were good on that

Seriously, I have more trust in a tech company like LL to take good care of my digitized ID info, than I have on our local governments who get in the news all the time because of their failed IT projects, policies and general incompetence.

And if you really do not want to share the info with LL, then don't?

[Chic Aeon]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If you're not cashing out, you do need to agree to the Telia TOS, but you don't need to provide them with documentation.

So -- and this is not a loaded question, I'm honestly curious -- why worry about Telia in those circumstances? It shouldn't impact upon you at all, should it?

One would "think" not (except for the ones of us that are telling a lie when we "agree" to the TOS - so a MORAL impact if nothing else). BUT that was one of my complex questions on the  official thread.  It was assured that we didn't need to do anything special and could make our land payments as usual, but we do need to change lindens to dollars and there was some conflicting info and questions on that. So hoping it will be clarified.

 

In Sansar which is run through Tilia in order to get dollars (not cashing out -- just dollars in our account) we have to put them in the "wallet" which someone asked a question about on the Official thread.  So, if we are turning lindens into dollar to go in a wallet (which is apparently what it says on the Tilia website (I did NOT go past the welcome page) then we are actually ACCESSING Tilia.   It DOES state in the Tillia terms of service that they may ask you for personal info JUST to make an account. So confusing -- and I am not the only one that is in that state. 

 

Now if folks have never cashed out there is no info in Tilia == and originally it was officially stated that those who HAD cashed out  would need to reapply with our personal info AGAIN to Tilia. Later that was changed to say basically that they would use the info that they (LL) already had and that most people would not need to reaffirm.   So --- for those of us that HAVE cashed out, LL (and now if not before Tilia does too). Even if I never cash out again, they have my info.  They will automatically take my leftover lindens when I don't cash out again (this if I don't buy something on the Marketplace to use them up which I had forgotten you could do).  I am OK with that. It isn't much. 

 

BUT just by changing Lindens to dollars am I in effect accessing Tilia? It seems so. That means I would have to work around tier payments and never use ANY inworld profits to pay bills like membership. Now that's pretty messy if I don't want to go back to a basic account. It limits me from buying mainland because I couldn't pay tier with my lindens. Renting would work and I am not adverse to that.    So it is still a bit blurry for me.  I realize not many people will be opting out of cashing out, but SOME will.  Actually I know a few already who are going to use Paypal or not work.   *wink*.  Maybe there will be a big retirement boom!

 

So maybe some more answers on Monday.   And I am premium until next April anyway. That's a done deal.  Plenty of time to see how it evolves.  

 

 

 

 

[Selene Gregoire]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I kind.of get that, although frankly functioning online means taking on all sorts of additional TOS agreements and the like that you neither want nor need.

The contract in this case is kind of pointless and without force if you're not using the service. 

I'm going to totally agree that I wish they weren't doing it this way. But I don't see any actual harm in having an account for a service that is going to impact upon me not at all, and is in effect, if not in legal terms, part of SL.

Don't count on that bolded part holding up.

I'll be clicking the agree button... under duress.

[Chic Aeon]

11 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

I wonder how many of the people screaming about privacy here post their pictures and all sorts of private information on places like facebook? Or even read the terms of agreement on any of the services they sign up to, or when installing software just click the "agree" button in a hurry because they need the software. Companies like Google their business model is collecting and using/selling your personal data, yet everyone uses it and signs up on their services. People putting their info online on job sites, linked in, dating apps, just about everywhere.

But now a company that you have used for their services for many years, ask for some aditional information only from people using a part of their services (cashing out) because they are legally bound by law to do so, and all of a sudden we worry about our privacy?

 

 

I, as the typist, am virtually invisible on the web. I am in NO social media at all. When you search for a picture of me nothing comes up (a 25 year old photo from Australia finally disappeared; I guess the computer the file was on finally died -- who knows). 

There were decades when I was very prominent on the web with a huge "fan base"  and then  I purposefully disappeared (nothing illegal -- I just decided I wanted my privacy as much as I could possibly keep it). That "famous" thing is not really all it is cracked up to be --- even though so many people want it.  

I no longer get any junk mail, haven't for decades and I really LIKE that.  I don't really feel the need to post photos of what I ate last night or tell folks what I bought at the grocery store last week. If someone died, I would LIKE to hear about it in person (OMG!)  I am actually VERY anti social media. 

 

So "I" really DO read those privacy agreements and rarely opt in. 

 

I also have ALL MY SECURITY SETTINGS in Win10 as high as they can be for privacy and I use the BRAVE browser (which I love to pieces - so fast and so private). That's me.   

 

Chic is VERY well known of course with Google finding 19,300 results for "Chic Aeon" in quotes.   She is also anti-social media and aside from Google Plus for Opensim and an info page on MeWe for the folks looking for tutorials, she doesn't use social media except for the forums. She has a FB page from almost a decade ago(required for some blogger event I think)  and hasn't visited it in about the same amount of time. She doesn't even access her SL web profile and has no idea at all what her "friends" are doing with her wall (if I have that term correct). 

 

So ONE of use doesn't fit into your categorization == maybe just one, but still ONE. 

[Ana Stubbs]

40 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

 Google Plus  

You can cross that one off your list...

[Ceka Cianci]

So I'm curious ,because I only read the first page.

Is it going to take an act of congress to buy lindens  or giving up my first born ,or is it still gonna be the same?

I don't cash out anymore,I just buy them to shop with..

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

So I'm curious ,because I only read the first page.

Is it going to take an act of congress to buy lindens  or giving up my first born ,or is it still gonna be the same?

I don't cash out anymore,I just buy them to shop with..

If you never cash out and don't actually maintain a USD balance on your account, then all you have to do is agree to the Tiliar TOS on Aug 1.  Otherwise, you have to do nothing.  If you carry a USD balance, but never cash out, then just make sure you do some sort of activity (balance inquiry counts) on the USD at least once a year - i.e buy some L$, pay Premium membership, pay tier.

Edited July 4, 2019 by LittleMe Jewell

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If you never cash out and don't actually maintain a USD balance on your account, then all you have to do is agree to the Tiliar TOS on Aug 1.  Otherwise, you have to do nothing.

Thank you..

I'm just so worn out with jumping through hoops these days for companies that I'm about all hooped out..So this is good news to me..

I'm about a pinch away from quitting everything but horseback riding...hehehehe

Edited July 4, 2019 by Ceka Cianci

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Now if folks have never cashed out there is no info in Tilia == and originally it was officially stated that those who HAD cashed out  would need to reapply with our personal info AGAIN to Tilia. Later that was changed to say basically that they would use the info that they (LL) already had and that most people would not need to reaffirm.   So --- for those of us that HAVE cashed out, LL (and now if not before Tilia does too). Even if I never cash out again, they have my info.  They will automatically take my leftover lindens when I don't cash out again (this if I don't buy something on the Marketplace to use them up which I had forgotten you could do).  I am OK with that. It isn't much.

Most of my focus has been upon the case of those who (like me) have never cashed out, and likely never will, but who are nonetheless panicking about Telia because they don't understand what it means (and doesn't mean) for them.

The situation of those who will need to use it to cash out is of course a different case entirely. I assume (although sometimes that seems dangerous in the case of LL) that they have at least consulted with some of the larger land barons and businesses for whom the cash out would be consistent and significant, and whose output and contributions to the SL economy is important: presumably (as I've not heard any rumblings to the contrary) these big players are willing to accept the verification as the price of doing business or, more likely, have already submitted all of the necessary documentation well before Telia was even a sparkle in LL's eye.

The real test will be, I think, how those at the other end of the spectrum -- the small businesses, landowners, and creators, who make under US$100 or so a month -- will respond. Because they are dealing mostly with small sums, many have likely never had to produce what are now going to be the standard documents for a cash out. Some of them, perhaps many, will simply fold up rather than submit to what they may well see as an intrusive set of new regulations; others will simply keep their profits in-world.

I hope that this doesn't lead to a further squeezing out of the small creators; SL is already too pervasively dominated by big land barons and a handful of really powerful and popular merchants. It would be a shame to see variety and choice of goods narrowed any more than it already is. SL, and everyone in it, would be the loser by that.

[Chic Aeon]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Most of my focus has been upon the case of those who (like me) have never cashed out, and likely never will, but who are nonetheless panicking about Telia because they don't understand what it means (and doesn't mean) for them.

The situation of those who will need to use it to cash out is of course a different case entirely. I assume (although sometimes that seems dangerous in the case of LL) that they have at least consulted with some of the larger land barons and businesses for whom the cash out would be consistent and significant, and whose output and contributions to the SL economy is important: presumably (as I've not heard any rumblings to the contrary) these big players are willing to accept the verification as the price of doing business or, more likely, have already submitted all of the necessary documentation well before Telia was even a sparkle in LL's eye.

Well for ME as I have said many times here, it is not the verification (as I have done that twice - once in Sansar and those  two accounts are linked) but the TOS and privacy policy of Tilia.  It also isn't making me feel all that secure when questions are asked on the official FAQ thread that The Lab certainly should have researches already -- wanting to be the next big virtual currency handler -- that can't be answered "until after the weekend" and who know if they will be answered then.   

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The real test will be, I think, how those at the other end of the spectrum -- the small businesses, landowners, and creators, who make under US$100 or so a month -- will respond. Because they are dealing mostly with small sums, many have likely never had to produce what are now going to be the standard documents for a cash out. Some of them, perhaps many, will simply fold up rather than submit to what they may well see as an intrusive set of new regulations; others will simply keep their profits in-world.

I think that is pretty much a given. I suspect that most folk on my cash out level will keep cashing out, but those that have never had to go through the hoops (and in my case that was nearly a month long and very frustrating process) will just keep their money inworld as I plan to do. In effect when you add all those "little folks" together it could easily make an impact in LL's bottom line.  I am sure that they thought about that already, but sometimes I give them more credit that is applicable it seems :D.  

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I hope that this doesn't lead to a further squeezing out of the small creators; SL is already too pervasively dominated by big land barons and a handful of really powerful and popular merchants. It would be a shame to see variety and choice of goods narrowed any more than it already is. SL, and everyone in it, would be the loser by that.

Agreed. I hope that all the people creating are having FUN and enjoying the process and keep on with their crafts.   While I absolutely love beautifully made things, the teacher in me knows how important it is to learn and grow and create whatever the skill level.  I haven't heard anyone I KNOW thinking of leaving. Mostly it is just the "never cashing out again" theme and some "going back to basic" comments. So hopefully it won't SEEM like too much has changed --- at least from the outside. 

 

There have been many bumps in the SL roadway over the years. This is likely just one of them. We each have to make our decisions and hope that they are the best for us. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well for ME as I have said many times here, it is not the verification (as I have done that twice - once in Sansar and those  two accounts are linked) but the TOS and privacy policy of Tilia.

Yes, good point. I've not been worrying too much about the TOS, simply because it applies only to Telia, with which I personally am not going to be involved at all. Were these provisions extended to SL itself, on the other hand . . . well, that would be a different matter maybe.

The privacy piece is disturbing, and probably one of the main reasons why LL is slow to respond to questions about this. Most countries -- certainly, those in the EU -- have much more strict provisions about privacy, particularly in an online context, than the US has. Even my country, Canada, isn't quite as cavalier about privacy; I'm pretty sure I've never had to give out my Social Insurance Number (our equivalent of the SSN) to anyone other than an employer. LL may find it really difficult to reconcile what apparently are US regulations with the privacy policies of other countries. Both Google and Facebook have been having difficulties with just that issue. It could create a really difficult situation.

10 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

It also isn't making me feel all that secure when questions are asked on the official FAQ thread that The Lab certainly should have researches already -- wanting to be the next big virtual currency handler -- that can't be answered "until after the weekend" and who know if they will be answered then.

Yes, this doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Ultimately, though, I'm guessing that maybe 10% or so of the SL population is even really aware of Telia at this point. What they are really going to need to ensure they don't screw up is the roll-out of this to everyone on the grid on or before August 1. If it's not handled well, that could make the reaction here seem tame.

14 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

In effect when you add all those "little folks" together it could easily make an impact in LL's bottom line.

I think this is so. I have an uneasy sense that the SL economy is a little fragile right now as it is, despite what has probably been a mini-boom in certain sectors created by the new Linden Homes. It's such a complicated instrument, with so many moving parts. I wonder, thought, whether there isn't some chance that more people choosing not to cash out might not actually produce a beneficial impact?

18 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I hope that all the people creating are having FUN and enjoying the process and keep on with their crafts.

And that's the key, hopefully. This shouldn't diminish the "fun" -- and without that, we are nothing.

[Adam Spark]

I was reading the Tilia TOS and their privacy policy link sends me to the Linden Research Privacy Policy, currently dated May 25th, 2018. LL Privacy Policy is a document every one of us has agreed to already.

Which would make perfect sense, since Tilia is Linden Lab. To not trust one is to not trust the other, and if you don't trust Linden Lab, why are you doing business here?

And if you are not doing business here, this doesn't concern you.

Collection of SSN and/or other identifying information has been happening in business since the dawn of such documentation. The practice predates SL by decades at a minimum. I would be more terrified if I knew Linden Lab WASN'T doing this.

[Cry Hawker]

This is a typical Linden Lab operation. Inform the customers one month prior the introduction of a crucial mandatory service and provide no substantial information about it. Its really concerning that LL seems to be suprised by this just as residents are. If you have no answers to obvious questions by residents to your service, than you are not prepared. 

"Listen we have this new system..we are going to bring it next month and it will take us a month from there to even process if you are eligible for that system."

No words.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Cry Hawker

[Vick Forcella]

9 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

1. No

I and others have pointed out, in the FAQ thread, that Tilia can not demand a scan from Dutch passports as described in this government article. Tilia is allowed to receive a passport-number, or divers-licence number. If a scan is requested the Dutch are allowed to cut out everything except that number. One thing you are not allowed to demand is the Dutch SSN (in Dutch Sofi nummer), that is an absolute no-no.

Only banks and employers are allowed to demand a full scan. Tilia is not a bank, Pay-Pal (Europe) is.

I request an update of the FAQ so that the Dutch can pay out if needed without breaking Dutch regulations. We don't want to do anything illegal, neither does Tilia.

For people looking at the FAQ thread and can't find these posts. LL has removed them.

[Theresa Tennyson]

38 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said:

Only banks and employers are allowed to demand a full scan. Tilia is not a bank, Pay-Pal (Europe) is.

Show us your evidence for this statement. For instance, Tilia US has financial transaction licenses in all 30 US states - what do you know about the licenses or lack thereof for Tilia UK, which has been handling European financial transactions for Second Life for some time?

[Mollymews]

25 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said:

I and others have pointed out, in the FAQ thread, that Tilia can not demand a scan from Dutch passports as described in this government article. Tilia is allowed to receive a passport-number, or divers-licence number. If a scan is requested the Dutch are allowed to cut out everything except that number

i think that what you might be missing here is that LL are required to know by US law who exactly they (LL) give money too. In this case a user of the LL service

what US law provides for is that a foreign government-issued document can be accepted by LL as proof that the user is who they say they are

if we send only a government-issued document number, it doesn't prove who we are. It only shows that the sender knows a number on a government-issued document. There is no evidence provided to show that the number does actually belong to the sender.  When so then LL are not obliged to accept this as proof that the user is who they say they are. Nor is LL required under US or foreign law to believe us, just because we say so

 

[Vick Forcella]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Show us your evidence for this statement.

I don't have to. I'm not Tilia. But anyways: https://www.dnb.nl/toezichtprofessioneel/openbaar-register/WFTKF/index.jsp?filter_value=&naam=paypal#overzicht

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Vick Forcella
Hyperlink wasn't active. Is now.

[Theresa Tennyson]

Just now, Vick Forcella said:

I don't have to. I'm not Tilia. But anyways: https://www.dnb.nl/toezichtprofessioneel/openbaar-register/WFTKF/index.jsp?filter_value=&naam=paypal#overzicht

 

Who was it that said that "Tilia isn't a bank"?

[Vick Forcella]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Who was it that said that "Tilia isn't a bank"?

I did. Tilia is not a bank. PayPal is. PayPal can demand a scan of my passport, Tilia can't.

[Vick Forcella]

 

1 hour ago, Vick Forcella said:

If a scan is requested the Dutch are allowed to cut out everything except that number.

Nice to know. There is a "scan passport mask" available. If a scan is needed you place the mask over it and scan it. That way you are in compliance with the law.

Another mask here.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Vick Forcella
The link went into the wrong place