Tilia takes over

[Vick Forcella]

20 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

This sounds like a very basic difference in philosophy. If Linden Lab was a European company trying to get the equivalent information on a United States citizen, I doubt that they could legally get that sort of information from United States authorities; in fact, the United States central government may not have that sort of information to give out at all.

Towards companies. That is true. My mistake. But authorities can and do.

[Zeta Vandyke]

1 minute ago, Vick Forcella said:

Tilia is not registered as a bank, I checked (see above). They have no business asking and storing this type of information.

Their whole reasoning for going to this system is they are forced to do so by USA law.

"An organization may only make a complete copy or scan, that is to say where all personal data is visible, of someone's identity document if the organization is legally obliged to do so. This also applies to the scanning of proof of identity where an organization "reads in" personal data from someone's proof of identity. An organization may only do this if it is legally obliged to do so."

They don't have to be a bank. They have to be obliged by law

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said:

Tilia is not registered as a bank, I checked (see above). They have no business asking and storing this type of information.

In the United States, they are (at least as a "registered money services business.")

https://www.tilia-inc.com/

Bear in mind that words like "bank" have legal meanings - for instance, "banks" can offer interest-paying accounts and I'm quite sure Tilia can't. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't legally required to take the type of information that they are - in fact I'd be sure that they'd prefer not to.

[Sequoia Sojourner]

32 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Well to be honest, since only the ones cashing out real US dollars are the ones that will be asked verification, that takes the majority of SL users out of the equation anyway. And I do assume people crafty enough to setup an SL business and pulling their money from it into their real bank accounts, would be capable enough to decide if they want to use verification or not.

I believe the majority of users, or at least more than you estimate, do cash out. Perhaps not a lot, but they do.

[Vick Forcella]

23 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

 

legally obliged to do so.

In the document you refer to that is a hyperlink that links to this document .

[Vick Forcella]

8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

In the United States, they are (at least as a "registered money services business.")

https://www.tilia-inc.com/

Bear in mind that words like "bank" have legal meanings - for instance, "banks" can offer interest-paying accounts and I'm quite sure Tilia can't. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't legally required to take the type of information that they are - in fact I'd be sure that they'd prefer not to.

Do you believe a website? I believe in official documentation. Tilia is not a bank and not a banking service. Pay Pal is. Bank of America too.

[Zeta Vandyke]

7 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said:

In the document you refer to that is a hyperlink that links to this document .

Yeah it does. The direct point of your link refers to employer rules though, not relevant. A bit down on that same page though you will find this that states banks (and other appointed organizations) are allowed to ask for ID copy, and if they state up front are also allowed to process your social security number. This is decided by anti money laundering and preventing to fund terrorisme laws. Also that they van be dictated by law to ask and proces your SSN.:

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Zeta Vandyke
spelling and info

[Vick Forcella]

10 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Yeah it does. The direct point of your link refers to employer rules though, not relevant. A bit down on that same page though you will find this that states banks (and other appointed organizations) are allowed to ask for ID copy, and if they state up front are also allowed to process your social security number. This is decided by anti money laundering and preventing to fund terrorisme laws. Also that they van be dictated by law to ask and proces your SSN.:

Indeed. Tilia is not a bank.

[Selene Gregoire]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

SL is already too pervasively dominated by big land barons and a handful of really powerful and popular merchants.

All too true. And it's been that way for over 10 years. That's why I don't expect it will ever change and small businesses will always suffer for it. Just like in real life.

[Theresa Tennyson]

14 minutes ago, Vick Forcella said:

Do you believe a website? I believe in official documentation. Tilia is not a bank and not a banking service. Pay Pal is. Bank of America too.

Then look at their licenses:

https://www.tilia-inc.com/licenses/

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

You can cash out without being required to submit your personal info. So using your Lindens to pay your premium shouldn't be an issue. It's only if you process that credit after cashing out  to your RL paypal account that you are required to provide identification. So why would anyone opt out of cashing out? The only reason I can see anyone doing this is if they totally are not reading the info provided by the lab or have drawn a conclusion based on misinformation and then refuse to amend their conclusion once they've been given the correct information.

 

To ME :"cashing out" means sending money to Paypal  and "exchanging" means turning lindens into "a dollar balance" so I obviously knew that and I suspect anyone who has read my posts is aware of that understanding.   I know several people who read the Tilia TOS  and also fully understand CORRECTLY the differences and who are planning never to "cash out" again (and in their terms also that means send money to Paypal).  So mostly a semantics issues here it seems.

 

I have asked a question in the FAQs (and I was not alone) if exchanging lindens for perceived dollars (US cash balance) which are put in a WALLET (as it is now in Sansar) is USING Tilia.  The official information seems to contradict itself.  The Lab has not replied yet. Personally I have ONLY paid attention to the official statements from the lab (as well as changes to those statements). I have also read the Tilia TOS and Privacy Policy.  I am not giving any credence to all the bizarre comments by uninformed forum posters -- so your paragraph above does not apply to me.  

 

For a few of us (well, more it seems than I suspected) this it is a real life morals issues -- one that I am only willing to bend so far, personally -- so THAT is my reasoning.

 

As you WELL KNOW the lab has all my personal iinfo already from cashing out here and from cashing out in Sansar (my use of cashing out as you do not need to give that info in Sansar either if you only convert Sansar dollars to US dollars and leave them in your wallet).  My reasoning to not continue is that Tilia has a different TOS.  

 

If you can find a statement of mine that suggest that I ever believed people that are not sending money to Paypal will need to submit their information -- please reference it as I must have written it badly.  

 

 

 

 

[Vick Forcella]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then look at their licenses:

https://www.tilia-inc.com/licenses/

None of them are relevant in the EU. It's that single one in Europe I am interested in. In Europe Tilia is not a bank. Pay Pal is.

[Adam Spark]

4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

That's interesting because when "I" went to the link stating "privacy policy" from a LL document -- like the email I believe (not sure) I DEFINITELY wasn't sent to the LL privacy policy.   If you type Tilia Privacy Policy you will find the correct one that many of us read since there were many comments (and blog posts) on what was in that document.    So I think you just found a wrong (old maybe) link on a webpage that needs to be fixed.  

Perhaps. It was Tilia's webpage. Even their privacy page https://www.tilia-inc.com/legal/privacy/ is linking to the LR privacy policy for me. And I googled Tilia Privacy Policy. Perhaps its being consolidated?

[Theresa Tennyson]

Just now, Vick Forcella said:

None of them are relevant in the EU. It's that single one in Europe I am interested in. In Europe Tilia is not a bank. Pay Pal is.

Then it would be silly of you to ever expect Linden Lab or Tilia to send you money, seeing that they "aren't a bank."

[Chic Aeon]

7 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

Perhaps. It was Tilia's webpage. Even their privacy page https://www.tilia-inc.com/legal/privacy/ is linking to the LR privacy policy for me. And I googled Tilia Privacy Policy. Perhaps its being consolidated?

LOL.  Well I kinda thought there "may have been changes" but didn't mention it.  I went there last night again.  Nope still there for ME. 

No clue.  I am in the US. Maybe there is a redirect for some people now?   

 

EDIT: Are you clicking on the link for "folks outside the US"?  that might be it. 

YES, I just checked that the link for folks outside the US goes to the LL Privacy Policy. Only US folks are governed by the Tilia policy.  

Edited July 4, 2019 by Chic Aeon

[Vick Forcella]

10 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then it would be silly of you to ever expect Linden Lab or Tilia to send you money, seeing that they "aren't a bank."

I expect Tilia to respect EU laws. When they follow EU laws I know that my privacy is guaranteed.

They have two options, not to demand a scan of my ID, or become a registered bank.
Else, Tilia has no business in the EU and there won't be any legal payout.
 

[Theresa Tennyson]

Just now, Vick Forcella said:

I expect Tilia to respect EU laws. When they follow EU laws I know that my privacy is guaranteed.

They have two options, not to demand a scan of my ID, or become a registered bank.
Else, Tilia has no business in the EU and there won't be any legal payout.
 

No money for you then!

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

THIS IS IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ

Some of the misunderstanding seems to be because those in the US see the ACTUAL Tilia TOS when they click on the Privacy Policy links and those OUTSIDE the US are sent back to the Linden Lab TOS link (since the Tilia Privacy Policy is not relevant for those not in the US).

 

So THAT seems to be why people are saying "but you already OKed the privacy policy". For folks outside the US, they indeed did. For those of us IN the US there is a very different policy.  

 

 

[Vick Forcella]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

No money for you then!

Nope. Bummer.🥴

[Beth Macbain]

4 hours ago, Vick Forcella said:

It's that simple. Yes.

Hi Vick - Hey, can I have a copy of your passport number or whatever government number you're referring to? I require that before I talk to people.

What? No? That's cool... You're perfectly within your rights! But I'm not going to talk to you (at least not after this post anyway), and I'm perfectly within my rights as well! 

See how that works? I asked for it, you didn't have to supply it, but I also don't have to talk to you. 

LL isn't demanding anything of anyone. Using LL's products and services isn't required of anyone. It's all voluntary. 

Good talk. Bye! 

[Adam Spark]

16 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

LOL.  Well I kinda thought there "may have been changes" but didn't mention it.  I went there last night again.  Nope still there for ME. 

No clue.  I am in the US. Maybe there is a redirect for some people now?   

 

EDIT: Are you clicking on the link for "folks outside the US"?  that might be it. 

YES, I just checked that the link for folks outside the US goes to the LL Privacy Policy. Only US folks are governed by the Tilia policy.  

Ok it must have automatically detected I'm in Canada and sent me where I needed to go.

So yes, Americans do have to agree to yet another document of legal mumbo jumbo. LOL

[Vick Forcella]

4 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

LL isn't demanding anything of anyone. Using LL's products and services isn't required of anyone. It's all voluntary.

Any business that is storing my private information is subject to GDPR. When I am using their services or not. That is law.

[Blush Bravin]

39 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

 

To ME :"cashing out" means sending money to Paypal  and "exchanging" means turning lindens into "a dollar balance" so I obviously knew that and I suspect anyone who has read my posts is aware of that understanding.   I know several people who read the Tilia TOS  and also fully understand CORRECTLY the differences and who are planning never to "cash out" again (and in their terms also that means send money to Paypal).  So mostly a semantics issues here it seems.

I think it's much more than a matter of semantics as the terms cashing out and process credit are two very different things. Interchanging those terms is leading to confusion and in some cases fear. It's important enough that Oz addressed it here in this post.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Blush Bravin]

38 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

If you can find a statement of mine that suggest that I ever believed people that are not sending money to Paypal will need to submit their information -- please reference it as I must have written it badly.  

You did so, perhaps not intentionally, by using the wrong terminology in your post. I know what you meant.  The problem is, because of your terminology, you didn't say what you meant. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Chic Aeon]

So if anyone wonders why I don't respond to Blush's comments any longer it is because I don't see them. Feel free to block me if you feel I am incorrect or confusing.  We should ALL be having a pleasant experience here, not fighting. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Chic Aeon
spelling