Sad that popular places are turning into Experiences with no option to visit without accepting

[Gabriele Graves]

I have noticed recently that quite a few of my favourite haunts have turned into Experiences where in order to visit you have to accept the Experience.
This mostly means that you now arrive at a landing place far away from the real location and the Experience will teleport you to the real location once you accept it.  There is no alternative way offered to teleport to the real location.

I generally don't, with very few exceptions, accept experiences because I do not want to grant control over my avatar in the way that experiences grant.
Clearly LL expected this and that is why permission has to be sought and not automatically granted.
I also know that it isn't likely that anyone will do anything malicious but mostly I want to wander around, appreciate the build and possibly chat to a few denizens.

I do not really need or want an "experience".  Sadly there is generally no option offered by these places to visit in this way any more and so I do not visit.

Now I understand it is their place and their choice.  I have no right to expect to be catered for, etc.  I understand that.
Though I have noticed that these places often have shopping area at the land point which do not require you to accept the Experience.
Hmm how astonishing. ?

I just think it is a shame that things seem to be heading this way without making it optional, especially as they were quite happy without the Experience not so long ago.
 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Gabriele Graves
Changed "place" to "places" and reformatted some parts

[Blaise Glendevon]

This seems a little hysterical. I don't see what the difference between being directed to a landing spot and being teleported to an experience is.

[Gabriele Graves]

@Blaise Glendevon Clearly you are misunderstanding my post then.

[Ipecac Burnham]

I can understand this.

 

I use and enjoy LSL, I made a little experience for my house for my coffee cups and "fake doors" through solid walls, but I won't accept an experience in a furniture store just to be able to teleport to the Kitchenware section.

 

I know most of LSL's limits in that it can never really be too unfriendly, but giving someone blanket perms for something as simple as a WarpPos teleporter, or a LM teleporter even seems like too much, unless I willingly click a prim saying... "I trust you enough not to Animate me in compromising positions while taking photos and staging events" because let's face it, Residents will be Residents.

 

I join the LL experiences because I trust them.

 

I Made my own experience because I can trust myself.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love experiences, they can make things so much more intuitive, more immersive, they can make things easier and more fun, but they have a time and a place like everything, and if I'm not going to accept your "pyramid scheme x" HUD spamming me, I'm not going to accept your Experience that lets you do it without a second prompt as I gave up my animation permissions, because I don't know Joey X from "Super Fantastic Furniture Store No.1" or what his motives are other than profit.

[KT Kingsley]

Make a disposable alt to test out those experiences you don't trust. You can then throw the alt away or "Forget" any undesirable experience, or you can go and join with your main if it proves innocuous.

[Ipecac Burnham]

3 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

Make a disposable alt to test out those experiences you don't trust. You can then throw the alt away or "Forget" any undesirable experience, or you can go and join with your main if it proves innocuous.

I could, yes.

 

But that then costs us all.

 

That throw away alt has to be stored on a server, space has to be allocated for it's contents, a web profile generated and another useless UUID in search that's flooding the results.

 

I usually just find a different store.

[Garnet Psaltery]

I think a place using an Experience should declare what it entails, and risk sanction of some kind if it exceeds this declaration.

[Callum Meriman]

The requirement to accept experiences will only grow when EEP comes out.

14 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I think a place using an Experience should declare what it entails, and risk sanction of some kind if it exceeds this declaration.

Yes! The Lindens can do this *much* better.

In a way it does now. If it's a G rated experience, then anything it does must be G rated. If it places you on an Adult pose AR it, if it attaches an adult HUD AR it, if it transports you into an Adult club AR it; the experience owner will be sanctioned by governance.

But it really irks me - as a heavy experience creator and user - that the list of what we want to control is not customisable. As  an example, I don't want to track people's cameras at all, but I am required to ask for that, there is simply no option to not take it 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

Is your avatar being controlled though? It sounds like you are worrying about nothing at all. Of you're so worried about this, just get a landmark for the place it teleports you to and go in without the experience stuff.

[Richardus Raymaker]

I do not know why people are afraid for experiences.

Experience are a good thing to, for games it gives options to detect cheating as far i know.

If something happens you not like, teleport out of the sim and the experience stops. As far i remember you can remove permissions for experiences from your viewer to once out of the experience sim.

It could be different if experiences would work grid wide.

[Gabriele Graves]

@Richardus Raymaker I am not afraid of Experiences and I am definitely aware of how Experiences work.  I never said they were a bad thing either.  However you do have to give up control of certain aspects of your avatar whilst you are at the Experience or you cannot visit the build.  Some may not wish to give up that control and think it is a shame if all wonderful builds end up going this way without an opt out.  Especially as at one time we didn't even have to make that choice.  As I have said before, LL gives us the ability to choose so clearly they don't think that avatars should be subject to the control of others unless they consent either.  Regardless of how easy it is to regain control.

Richardus, if you were talking to the general case and not specifically to me, then please consider what I have posted not aimed at you specifically either.

It is obvious though that some of the posters feel that this topic is a painting a bigger deal about the subject than I feel about it.
It is a simple as this...I have noticed this happening and thought I would raise it as a topic, hoping for an interesting discussion about it.
Nothing more.  I hope people stop projecting more than is really here into it.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Gabriele Graves
removed extra 'not'

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I do not really need or want an "experience".  Sadly there is generally no option offered by these places to visit in this way any more and so I do not visit.
 

If you don't go/spend time there because they require experiences, how do you know that the region doesn't offer what you're looking for?

[Ethan Paslong]

16 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

you do have to give up control of certain aspects of your avatar whilst you are at the Experience or you cannot visit the build.  Some may not wish to give up that control and think it is a shame if all wonderful builds end up going this way without an opt out.

while you say others take it to far in their responses i think you might take it too far also... for me it's the same as visiting a sim with some stricter rules to be there... if you can't agree, don't stay, and yes, you'll miss the building, but thats quite normal when you don't want to visit the place.

 

17 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It is obvious though that some of the posters feel that this topic is a painting a bigger deal about the subject than I feel about it.
It is a simple as this...I have noticed this happening and thought I would raise it as a topic, hoping for an interesting discussion about it.
Nothing more.  I hope people stop projecting more than is really here into it.

you put it in GD..it can go any way, you mentions several things that could turn in a discussion, so not surprising it takes off at different acccents.

[Gabriele Graves]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If you don't go/spend time there because they require experiences, how do you know that the region doesn't offer what you're looking for?

I did visit these places before they changed to use Experiences.  I discovered this change on my last visit to these places.  If there was an alternative teleport from the landing point to the build I never found it.  This was covered in the first part of the OP.

[Gabriele Graves]

10 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

while you say others take it to far in their responses i think you might take it too far also... for me it's the same as visiting a sim with some stricter rules to be there... if you can't agree, don't stay, and yes, you'll miss the building, but thats quite normal when you don't want to visit the place.

Yes, I covered this in the OP.

Quote

 

you put it in GD..it can go any way, you mentions several things that could turn in a discussion, so not surprising it takes off at different acccents.

Well I would rather the discussion be about the subject at hand, rather than about me and my choices if possible.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Gabriele Graves
left over word after sentence restructure.

[Qie Niangao]

7 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I just think it is a shame that things seem to be heading this way without making it optional, especially as they were quite happy without the Experience not so long ago.

Could be worse. They could have gachas.

[Tamara Artis]

 I was away from SL when they were introduced and I never really got in the situation to sit down and read more information about them (besides finding out only premium members can create them, which I am not) but from I've picked up and saw so far they are really not much big of a deal when it comes to harming your avatar or a person in any way. Instead of taking a pause every 5 minutes to read how a certain object needs my permission to animate my avatar, and clicking a button to give that permission, now I can visit the venue without these interruptions. 

There are probably more people like OP who simply dislike them (for any reason) and I want to believe that it is possible to write a polite notecard to the venue creator, explain the personal issue with the experience and ask is it possible to get access to the venue without using the experiences? I say I want to believe it's possible because I never tried it, but I feel I should give some kind of advice or support in this situation. 

When it comes to hunts, seeing people disagree to the way the hunts are organized, makes me believe they tried to cheat and failed so now they try to complain about some other aspect. I am not trying to say the OP is like this, just saying it happens often because I have been in many hunts as a hunter and as a creator and there are always tons of people who don't care about the venues or anything besides the hunt object. 

[Klytyna]

7 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

This seems a little hysterical. I don't see what the difference between being directed to a landing spot and being teleported to an experience is.

The difference is that teleporting to a fixed landing point and using a tp pad to reach the ctual location, or teleporting directly to the location do not, unlike "Experiences" allow scripted objects on the sim owned by the sim owner to...

Force TP you anywhere with no confirmation...

Force sit you on any object...

Attach a Freenis to your forehead...

Twist your avi like a pretzel with an obscene deformer pose without asking...

And so on...

It's like Stealthed Inferior RLV for everyone...

I use rlva... But that is MY personal choice, and things like relays come with settings like 'ask' or 'trusted only' and have 'safewords'

LL Experience code doesn't. You accept an experience, and it can do all its wonderful things to you until you open up a list and deliberately un-accept it.

Experiences can be useful, easy seamless teleporter portals you just walk into to move around a place, or attaching coffee mugs when you choose the 'drink coffee ' anim on a table and chair...

But it can have a dark side such as attaching attachments you really really do not want, or forcing you onto 'furniture' you'd never willingly use...

 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There is no alternative way offered to teleport to the real location.

So you want to move from A to B in other ways than an Experience teleport? How does it differ from some conventional teleporter that, in its simplest form, requires just a single click? Teleport-wise, I don't really see the problem of having to use Experience TPs over other TPs to guide you around a sim.

It could be much worse: an accidental double click that teleports you back to the other side of the sim, to the fixed landing point. I hate fixed landing points with a passion.

10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If there was an alternative teleport from the landing point to the build I never found it.

I think that has got more to do with the design of the sim than Experiences: how far apart are the different features? Can you make a map of the place in your mind, based on visibility and complexity of the different destinations? How hard is it to find or discover different places or clues/paths/directional signs leading to them? I think Experiences can't be blamed for potential bad design, like you can't blame a pencil manufacturer for being stabbed with one (okay, macabre analogy).

10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I do not want to grant control over my avatar in the way that experiences grant.

Did you Experience anything bad in the past, other than becoming disoriented after an Experience upgrade? Could you give some examples?

Edited October 17, 2018 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Phorumities]

The point is (and I'm guessing this is partlys the OP's position) when I visit a sim I want my own experience and not something I'm forced to experience by the sim owner.

I always decline experiences when offered.

Directed landing points are bad enough. I'm not gonna watch passivly as I'm dragged thru the sim.

Unless someone has my leash.

*grins*

[Ipecac Burnham]

1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

The point is (and I'm guessing this is partlys the OP's position) when I visit a sim I want my own experience and not something I'm forced to experience by the sim owner.

I always decline experiences when offered.

Directed landing points are bad enough. I'm not gonna watch passivly as I'm dragged thru the sim.

Unless someone has my leash.

*grins*

this is in essence, the point.

 

We're all here making our own experience, before LSL experience code even factors in.

 

If your build absolutely requires the participation of a well documented, scripted experience, then sure, people have the choice to either enter or not... If it's a transparent enough venture people can see and gauge quickly for the decision, many will join and enjoy the experience.

If everyone adds an experience simply for the sake of it, we're now weighing up the pro's and con's of it every single time we go anywhere... then it becomes even harder to place trust in the few because we're forced to research...

Who is X?

Why is X needed?

What is being done with X?

Does having X help me get to point B any easier than sitting on a prim did?

Is it worth the risk?

Am I willing to send in the AR's when it's not?

Am I willing to be AR'd when it's not?

 

If I'm doing this every time I try and buy shoes I stop buying shoes.

 

Perhaps there can be a cleaner way for smaller things that simply don't need a full experience to grab my perms maybe, specific ones as Callum mentions, for each function, so then sure, your store can TP me to kitchenware but no, you don't need attach and anim rights to do it.

 

[Alyona Su]

Agreed with OP. Accepting LL experience is a no-brainer. And many places that use experiences offer you the choice to accept it without blocking access to the sim (Octoberville is a perfect example (https://secondlife.com/destination/octoberville-2018))

But if I land at a place that forces their experience on me (Except it or no entry) - then I leave. NO place is that important to see that I am willing to turn over that kind of control. Places like Octoberville get it and are "doing it rite" - I go in, decline the Experience permission - go look around. Then come back the next day because I liked what I saw and excepted the experience. Because it is a known factor for me now.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, Ipecac Burnham said:

If I'm doing this every time I try and buy shoes I stop buying shoes.

I don't think I've ever tried an Experience. They were just coming in when I was last active in-world (with an alt), and I'm pretty sure I never had the opportunity.

I can see lots of potential advantages to them for immersive sims, games, art installations, and the like. If Bryn Oh used one for one of her installations, I'd probably not hesitate to use it because 1) it's doubtless an integral part of the experience of the art, and 2) I know Bryn Oh well enough to trust her.

But for shopping???? Seriously? Absolutely not: I'd be out of that store in a shot.

I get than 99% of Experiences are probably totally harmless, but one of the appeals of SL is the amount of control it affords over who I am, what I look like, and what I "experience". SL was designed to be empowering. I'm not going to surrender that power so that a merchant can better integrate me into traffic flow through their store, and bombard me with stimuli designed, ultimately, to make me more susceptible to the allure of their merchandise. 

[Blush Bravin]

I can very well understand limiting access to a given area when accessing something like a game that has rewards for completing certain parts. It would certainly affect the outcome of the game if someone could come into a place beforehand and map out the area. However, I think the creators of the experience need to be transparent as to why accepting the experience is required. 

I am very reluctant to accept anything that takes away my control of my avatar. And I doubt I'm in the minority on that issue. So requiring experience acceptance for admittance might backfire on creators using it too much or when not absolutely necessary.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Richardus Raymaker said:

I do not know why people are afraid for experiences.

I don't know that it's about "being afraid." It's more about not giving up the ability to make choices along the way. An analogy: would you rather get into a cab and let your driver choose the route with the understanding that your only possible influence on the decision was to get out of the cab? Or would you prefer to at least have the right and the ability to intervene in the driver's choices, even knowing that you probably will not need to do so?

I might also note that it's probably just a matter of time before some unscrupulous cookie figures out how to leverage Experiences in an unethical way. RedZone employed components (technical and social) that were, on their own, entirely benign. It was the way they were combined together and exploited that made that "innovation" so very dangerous.