Sad that popular places are turning into Experiences with no option to visit without accepting

[Madelaine McMasters]

I've also never experienced an experience, but would probably be willing to accept one almost anywhere, just to see what people do with them. If I don't like it, I can block or forget it. I like to think I am relatively more immune (there's that conceit again) to the machinations of marketing folk, having been married to one for a decade. I am curious to see how businesses manipulate us, particularly at the small scale, where the business owner probably has little background in marketing. I can get as much satisfaction from telling the story of an awful experience as from a wonderful one.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I've also never experienced an experience, but would probably be willing to accept one almost anywhere, just to see what people do with them.

Same. The type of Experience I would like to try most is the “Experience version” of some of my favorite things: automated tours, funhouses, haunted houses, amusement parks..

[Madelaine McMasters]

20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't know that it's about "being afraid." It's more about not giving up the ability to make choices along the way. An analogy: would you rather get into a cab and let your driver choose the route with the understanding that your only possible influence on the decision was to get out of the cab? Or would you prefer to at least have the right and the ability to intervene in the driver's choices, even knowing that you probably will not need to do so?

I might also note that it's probably just a matter of time before some unscrupulous cookie figures out how to leverage Experiences in an unethical way. RedZone employed components (technical and social) that were, on their own, entirely benign. It was the way they were combined together and exploited that made that "innovation" so very dangerous.

But you never give up control. You can always forget or block. For as much attachment as I have to "Maddy", she's still an avatar in a virtual world I can shut down at a moment's notice. The only risk I ever feel here is in my relationships with the rest of you, and I don't see how accepting an experience would affect that. Yes, I might get two steps into the thing and roll my eyes and forget it, or it might be so bad that, like a crap science fiction movie, I've got to see it to the end, so I can tell everybody how awful it was. It's all good.

ETA: Remember, this thinking comes from someone who's fondest recollection of her time in SL is watching you plunge countless innocent women (yes, there were men present, but that dilutes my story) to their death during the grand opening of your display fighting "violence against women". If you ever create an experience, I wanna be the first one to die in it.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Blush Bravin]

11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

But you never give up control. You can always forget or block.

But you do give up control. You can certainly get control back by doing those things but before you "forgot or blocked" you lost control.

[Ipecac Burnham]

I'd rather not think it's the experiences people do not trust sadly.

 

I trust LSL, I spent time learning it's limits and how it can be used, there's a mountain I'll never know, but I know enough to make an educated guess as to my safety in using and being a user of LSL.

 

Residents don't trust Residents, and some will say rightly so, we've all seen our fair share of bad apples and actors over the years to be at a point when most every venue of worth has a scripted "under 30days, boot home in under 30seconds" kicker.

 

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

But you never give up control. You can always forget or block. For as much attachment as I have to "Maddy", she's still an avatar in a virtual world I can shut down at a moment's notice. The only risk I ever feel here is in my relationships with the rest of you, and I don't see how accepting an experience would affect that. Yes, I might get two steps into the thing and roll my eyes, or it might be so bad that, like a crap science fiction movie, I've got to see it to the end. It's all good.

 

This is also a very good point, you can always log out and log back in to Ahern...

 

I'm not worried about someones prim parts, I'm not worried about shocks and jump scares... I'm worried about being put into things I simply don't want in my head, Things I do not want residing in the cache on my computer, things entirely possible in SL because we as Residents put them there and have been ARing each other for, for a decade, because some of it really isn't fun... and when you're in an experience and hitting "Stand" but getting a popup saying "Object will not allow you to stand at this time" many will not be in a very pleasant state of mind thinking of the best course of action.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

8 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

But you do give up control. You can certainly get control back by doing those things but before you "forgot or blocked" you lost control.

Is this sort of how I lose control of my toaster, unless I remember to push the "Eject" button when I think I've turned the dial too far to the right? It's the very presence of that button that encourages me to turn that dial too far to the right in the first place.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Blush Bravin]

You're straining at a gnat Madelaine. The point is that in order to be in that part of the area she must accept something that controls her avatar. Yes, she can stop it and leave the experience, the point is she should she really have to give over that control in order to be in the area in the first place. 

[Phorumities]

4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Yes, I covered this in the OP.

Well I would rather the discussion be about the subject at hand, rather than about me and my choices if possible.

well if its a choice between discussing your concerns or questioning you for expressing  your concerns, you will often find the latter is far more popular.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Phorumities
double word

[Cindy Evanier]

It's kind of ironic to me that after years of telling people don't accept anything from someone you don't know/trust, suddenly experiences to accept are popping up everywhere. 

[Alyona Su]

5 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

It's kind of ironic to me that after years of telling people don't accept anything from someone you don't know/trust, suddenly experiences to accept are popping up everywhere. 

Yes, yes. And to those proclaiming "it's nothing to fear or worry about..., yadda, yadda" - I can only speak for myself, but there is no fear or worry. It's a matter of principle for me, at least with regard to the "take it or leave the sim" ones. I don't accept ultimatums very well.

Because I AM REBEL.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Madelaine McMasters]

47 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't know that it's about "being afraid." It's more about not giving up the ability to make choices along the way. An analogy: would you rather get into a cab and let your driver choose the route with the understanding that your only possible influence on the decision was to get out of the cab? Or would you prefer to at least have the right and the ability to intervene in the driver's choices, even knowing that you probably will not need to do so?

I might also note that it's probably just a matter of time before some unscrupulous cookie figures out how to leverage Experiences in an unethical way. RedZone employed components (technical and social) that were, on their own, entirely benign. It was the way they were combined together and exploited that made that "innovation" so very dangerous.

Your analogy isn't working for me, Scylla. When I call an Uber in Boston (cabs?), I absolutely trust the driver to choose the route. I trust the driver to actually know how to drive, and to not assault me. I trust the driver will stop when commanded so I can get out. I have a hell of a lot less control in that situation than in SL, yet I still choose to call Uber, where the risks are... real!

Even the RedZone specter doesn't haunt me. Such nefarious exploits potentially await me everywhere on the Internet. More people have been manipulated, and had their personal information exposed by Google and Facebook than have ever teleported through the doors of SL.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

21 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You're straining at a gnat Madelaine. The point is that in order to be in that part of the area she must accept something that controls her avatar. Yes, she can stop it and leave the experience, the point is she should she really have to give over that control in order to be in the area in the first place. 

I generally agree, but I think you go a little further than the OP, who is not questioning the "right" of sim owners to use Experiences, but rather lamenting the fact that so many force her to make a choice between accepting one, or simply avoiding the sim. It's like accepting the ground rules for any sim one enters: no one is questioning their right to impose these, but really restrictive ones can leave one with no choice but to say "no."

[Madelaine McMasters]

25 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You're straining at a gnat Madelaine.

I think you're using the idiom backwards. I'm making a mole hill out of a mountain.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I have a hell of a lot less control in that situation than in SL, yet I still choose to call Uber, where the risks are... real!

lol

Well, actually, this is one of the reasons I don't use Uber. But my anology didn't suggest that you should have no trust in your driver: every human interaction involves at least some element of trust. I was drawing a parallel with a very specific case of conceding that you have no right whatsoever to choose the route you take, other than to exit the cab. I might "trust" the driver to know what she's doing, but that trust is never absolute or blind.

I also don't buy the "but this is much more dangerous and we do it all the time!" argument. It's much more dangerous to cross a bus lane than a bicycle path: I look both ways before doing either.

[Blush Bravin]

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I generally agree, but I think you go a little further than the OP, who is not questioning the "right" of sim owners to use Experiences, but rather lamenting the fact that so many force her to make a choice between accepting one, or simply avoiding the sim. It's like accepting the ground rules for any sim one enters: no one is questioning their right to impose these, but really restrictive ones can leave one with no choice but to say "no."

I'm not really questioning the right of the region owner to do as they like with their region. Read my prior posts in this thread. I've even suggested reason why I can understand the necessity of using experiences, but I am questioning the wisdom of using them when not necessary. I'm more likely to tp to another area rather than accept an experience unless I trust the creator of the experience. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I've also never experienced an experience, but would probably be willing to accept one almost anywhere, just to see what people do with them. If I don't like it, I can block or forget it. I like to think I am relatively more immune (there's that conceit again) to the machinations of marketing folk, having been married to one for a decade. I am curious to see how businesses manipulate us, particularly at the small scale, where the business owner probably has little background in marketing. I can get as much satisfaction from telling the story of an awful experience as from a wonderful one.

Like everyone else, I have, over the past two decades, become increasingly and inextricably entangled in a digital world that is, apparently, convinced that it knows what I "like" or "want" better than I do. My search engines customize my search results on the basis of what they "think" I am looking for, and my social media platforms are absolutely certain that they know who will make the very best new friends for me, or what I would most like to buy. 

I'm tired of being told what I want. When I think that the surrendering to that kind of condescending machine-control is probably worthwhile, I will choose to do so. But mostly, no: I insist that I am actually the best judge of what I want, like, or mean.

[Alyona Su]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Like everyone else, I have, over the past two decades, become increasingly and inextricably entangled in a digital world that is, apparently, convinced that it knows what I "like" or "want" better than I do. My search engines customize my search results on the basis of what they "think" I am looking for, and my social media platforms are absolutely certain that they know who will make the very best new friends for me, or what I would most like to buy. 

I'm tired of being told what I want. When I think that the surrendering to that kind of condescending machine-control is probably worthwhile, I will choose to do so. But mostly, no: I insist that I am actually the best judge of what I want, like, or mean.

One question: do you use *anything* Google?

Just saying bad example. At least in SL no one can secretly gather amazingly-private intimate *knowledge* about you. In SL you can say "no" and that's the end of it. With big G, FB, and the rest - you think you can say no, but you're amazingly naive if you think they listen and that's the end of it.

And no, I do not use *anything* Google or Facebook, or Yahoo, etc. I use Cliqz browser and DuckDuckGo. Because I AM REBEL!

Edited October 17, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I like to think I am relatively more immune (there's that conceit again) to the machinations of marketing folk, having been married to one for a decade.

To respond to this separately: I like to think that I am as "media savvy" as anyone. I've studied rhetoric ("the art of persuasion") in a scholarly and historical context: I can (for the little that it's worth) even give you the Greek or Latin names for certain characteristic marketing strategies: Cicero and Quintilian thought of them first.

That said, what my "knowledge" mostly contributes is a self-awareness of exactly how much I am influenced by marketing. The experience of shopping in-world and on the MP over the last week has been a reminder of how susceptible I am to it. I know that I am, at a pretty basic level, attracted to particular aesthetic "looks" in advertising, even when I know full well that that aesthetic has nothing to do with the quality of the goods for sale. The fact that I am self-aware enough to realize this blunts its effect somewhat, but it's still very much there.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

But you never give up control. You can always forget or block.

No, I am giving up certain kinds of choices. Yes, I can block ("forgetting" is rather more problematic, surely?). But an Experience by definition limits the ways that I can exert control.

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

ETA: Remember, this thinking comes from someone who's fondest recollection of her time in SL is watching you plunge countless innocent women (yes, there were men present, but that dilutes my story) to their death during the grand opening of your display fighting "violence against women". If you ever create an experience, I wanna be the first one to die in it.

I have been waiting for this to appear in the "Most Embarrassing Moments" thread. I considered adding it there myself; it probably IS just about my most embarrassing experience.

(Followed somewhat closely by your recounting of it here. ?)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

One question: do you use *anything* Google?

Just saying bad example. At least in SL no one can secretly gather amazingly-private intimate *knowledge* about you. In SL you can say "no" and that's the end of it. With big G, FB, and the rest - you think you can say no, but you're amazingly naive if you think they listen and that's the end of it.

Yes, I do, and probably shouldn't. I don't use Facebook very much at all, however, and partly for this reason. And I've never even installed FB Messenger precisely because it is so intrusive.

It's certainly true that the harvesting of my data, and the provision of targeted ads, customized search results, etc., are closely connected: one obviously enables the other. But I was really focusing less upon the vulnerability of my data than upon the insistent bleating of the Machine that, no, THIS is what I really want to buy/see/read etc.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just one more note, based somewhat on personal experience and first-hand knowledge of people for whom this is an issue: "blocking" an Experience (both upper- and lower-case) after it has happened is probably more than adequate for most people. 

But for some, it really isn't. PTSD is a very real thing. Trigger warnings aren't actually about "censoring" material: they are about ensuring that we don't expose vulnerable people to experiences that are likely to cause real pain and trauma. And yes, that includes the immersive experiences of SL, which can certainly operate as triggers. (If they weren't emotionally impactful, we wouldn't bother with them in the first place.)

At the very least, Experiences need to be pretty explicit about the kinds of things they'll be exposing people to.

[Madelaine McMasters]

38 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The fact that I am self-aware enough to realize this blunts its effect somewhat, but it's still very much there.

Do read Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow" (Thanks again @Pamela Galli!). After that, you may question whether being self aware blunts anything.

 

45 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm tired of being told what I want.

There's something going on here that we won't have the time to dissect. I don't think I've ever experienced being told what I want in the way I think you experience it. In all seriousness, this goes back to my childhood, when I was deemed "precocious" where the scare quotes hint at something ominous. I am a pain in the ass, stupidly contradictory, ain't nobody telling me what I want. I'm also curious and love trying new things. And I'm always on the lookout for evidence that all my bluff and bluster has fallen to the most seemingly innocuous manipulations.

What you may see as "being told what I want" probably seems to me like a ham-handed attempt to crack into my skull, making me want to pat the perpetrator on her little head saying "okay, let's see what you can do, Sweetie". I bask in my imagined superiority, I suppose. But I really do want to know, if I can, what power can be wielded over me. And I can't figure that out if I don't allow the attempt.

Ever shed an unexpected tear at a movie, saying "how did I let that happen"? I hate crying, but kudos to people who can lure me in and make me do it. Those are the people I want to have lunch with.

Regarding your mention of PTSD. That is an argument for transparency up front. And I hope that sufferers are well aware of mute/block/forget/TP/log-out, because in my experience with people who've suffered here, the worst threats come looking for them. They don't require you to ask for a ticket to the abuse.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Moraxo]

I'm kinda of curious of everyone commenting who has owned/built/managed a sim?

I can kind of understand the RLV and experience fear as when I first rezzed only a few months ago I was confused and terrified by it all. However after understanding and using it a bit more Its become a non issue to me, I dont go to sims where I would typically have to worry about being tricked or trolled so if there is an experience I'll typically take it if I'm interested in the sim.

But as a creator and sim builder... If you dont want to EXPERIENCE my sim they way I envisioned it and would like people to engage with it...why are you here? Its my creation! What, would you go to an art gallery and start peeling things out of their frames and cases because YOU want to experience them differently?? Ludicrous... Now on the flip side I think of museums that have the little audio guides... most times I dont use them because I am in the museum for something specific so I dont use it and go about my way... the difference here? I PAID TO GET IN. If you're just FREELY going into other peoples sims the LEAST you could do is accept the experience... I'm sure im not the only person in SL who takes pride in their sim.

In direct reference to the OP, I think(and hope) it will become more prevalent as more sim owners (RP sims especially) are starting to see the convenience and utility of Experiences but I also hope SL continues to fine tune how they work as there could be improvements as others have noted. If I were you I would IM and NC the sim owners or mods to ask about being able to enter without the experience but If it was my sim I'd grill the heck out of ya as to why you wanna come in my sim without the experience...not that Id would say no for certain but yeah..

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Moraxo said:

But as a creator and sim builder... If you dont want to EXPERIENCE my sim they way I envisioned it and would like people to engage with it...why are you here? Its my creation! What, would you go to an art gallery and start peeling things out of their frames and cases because YOU want to experience them differently?? Ludicrous...

I was thinking of Banksy while posting to this thread. People seem to be falling into two camps over his recent self shredding portrait. I think you and I would fall into the same camp. I thought it was brilliant, and I suspect the purchaser feels the same. She did agree to continue with the purchase, at the agreed price.

[LittleMe Jewell]

10 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

 

But it really irks me - as a heavy experience creator and user - that the list of what we want to control is not customisable. As  an example, I don't want to track people's cameras at all, but I am required to ask for that, there is simply no option to not take it 

This reminds me of all the permissions that phone apps ask for, the vast majority making no sense at all as to why they are needed.  If you want to deny the permissions that the app really shouldn't need anyway, then you can't use the app.  

Experiences really should be able to only request the permissions that it truly needs and then actually only request the things that it really needs.

 

 

3 hours ago, Phorumities said:

The point is (and I'm guessing this is partlys the OP's position) when I visit a sim I want my own experience and not something I'm forced to experience by the sim owner.

 

This ^^

 

 

9 minutes ago, Moraxo said:

But as a creator and sim builder... If you dont want to EXPERIENCE my sim they way I envisioned it and would like people to engage with it...why are you here? Its my creation! What, would you go to an art gallery and start peeling things out of their frames and cases because YOU want to experience them differently?? Ludicrous... Now on the flip side I think of museums that have the little audio guides... most times I dont use them because I am in the museum for something specific so I dont use it and go about my way... the difference here? I PAID TO GET IN. If you're just FREELY going into other peoples sims the LEAST you could do is accept the experience... I'm sure im not the only person in SL who takes pride in their sim.

When I go to an art gallery, I might not peel things out the frame, but I choose which things I want to take time to ponder, which ones I totally walk by ignoring, and what order I want to see things in.  I never ever do tours in museums or art galleries - I actually almost never do 'tours' anyway, since it dictates how I will experience something.