Sad that popular places are turning into Experiences with no option to visit without accepting

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I was thinking of Banksy while posting to this thread. People seem to be falling into two camps over his recent self shredding portrait. I think you and I would fall into the same camp. I thought it was brilliant, and I suspect the purchaser feels the same. She did agree to continue with the purchase, at the agreed price.

I think the shredding was genius.  I definitely would have continued with the purchase.

However, in SL, I don't necessarily want someone else's Experience forced on me.  They do have their uses - I love them for some of the Halloween themed things going on.  But do I really need an Experience forced on me just to wander and admire a beautifully created location?  How many people might just decide to skip said location because of that?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

This reminds me of all the permissions that phone apps ask for, the vast majority making no sense at all as to why they are needed.  If you want to deny the permissions that the app really shouldn't need anyway, then you can't use the app.  

Experiences really should be able to only request the permissions that it truly needs and then actually only request the things that it really needs.

When I go to an art gallery, I might not peel things out the frame, but I choose which things I want to take time to ponder, which ones I totally walk by ignoring, and what order I want to see things in.  I never ever do tours in museums or art galleries - I actually almost never do 'tours' anyway, since it dictates how I will experience something.

 

Yes yes yes to pretty much everything here.

[Moraxo]

14 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I was thinking of Banksy while posting to this thread. People seem to be falling into two camps over his recent self shredding portrait. I think you and I would fall into the same camp. I thought it was brilliant, and I suspect the purchaser feels the same. She did agree to continue with the purchase, at the agreed price.

You are correct. Banksy is one of my favorite modern artists, I got to see the MOCO Museum in Amsterdam a few month back. ♥ I wouldn't have backed out of the buy either tbh but I am curious as to how much of that was actually set up given how good Banksy is at veiling things and getting you to look through only his... "Experience" hahaha

9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

When I go to an art gallery, I might not peel things out the frame, but I choose which things I want to take time to ponder, which ones I totally walk by ignoring, and what order I want to see things in.  I never ever do tours in museums or art galleries - I actually almost never do 'tours' anyway, since it dictates how I will experience something.

 

I guess you'd never go to Dismaland or a Meow Wolf exhibit... Your loss...WAIT A SEC... Presumably you wouldnt even get on a ride or something like Pirates of the Caribbean at Disney since your EXPERIENCE is already dictated for you...even though people seem to have their own experiences and opinions of such a thing. Would you not let a friend drive you around their town and show you around either? How far does this refusal to follow go for you I wonder.....

Life is about concessions and compromise....not willing to make any? Enjoy being alone I guess...

Edited October 17, 2018 by Moraxo

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, I am giving up certain kinds of choices. Yes, I can block ("forgetting" is rather more problematic, surely?). But an Experience by definition limits the ways that I can exert control.

 

The interesting thing to me is I imagine most of the people who use something like Second Life routinely submit to things that take far more "control" over them than a Second Life "Experience" ever could without batting an eyelash even without being asked for permission. Certainly any more traditional computer game does.

I wonder how much of the pushback is not because of what the experience could do, but granting it permission. I'm reminded of the old aphorism, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission."

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/06/19/forgive/

[Theresa Tennyson]

10 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I think the shredding was genius.  I definitely would have continued with the purchase.

 

My understanding was that the shredding stopped halfway down the painting, still leaving the buyer with something useful and in fact probably more valuable, while making the popular press be all BANKSY BANKSY BANKSY BANKSY BANKSY ad nauseum.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

55 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I don't think I've ever experienced being told what I want in the way I think you experience it. In all seriousness, this goes back to my childhood, when I was deemed "precocious" where the scare quotes hint at something ominous. I am a pain in the ass, stupidly contradictory, ain't nobody telling me what I want. I'm also curious and love trying new things. And I'm always on the lookout for evidence that all my bluff and bluster has fallen to the most seemingly innocuous manipulations.

What you may see as "being told what I want" probably seems to me like a ham-handed attempt to crack into my skull, making me want to pat the perpetrator on her little head saying "okay, let's see what you can do, Sweetie". I bask in my imagined superiority, I suppose. But I really do want to know, if I can, what power can be wielded over me. And I can't figure that out if I don't allow the attempt.

Well, ok. But you're generalizing from your own experience and self-knowledge, Maddy. Most of us aren't you.

 

55 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Ever shed an unexpected tear at a movie, saying "how did I let that happen"? I hate crying, but kudos to people who can lure me in and make me do it. Those are the people I want to have lunch with.

When I was a teen, I was taken to see a production of Les Miserables. I hated every damned moment of it -- not because it was poorly performed, staged, or written, but because it was so blatantly manipulative. By the end of the play, I was positively sobbing, and cursing the playwrights with every heave.

I don't want to be manipulated (and emotional manipulation is the easiest, and most potentially abusive kind): I want to be challenged.

 

55 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Regarding your mention of PTSD. That is an argument for transparency up front.

Well, yes. Neither I, nor the OP (I think -- she can weigh in if I'm wrong) are calling for an end to Experiences. We're asking for more and better choices. And transparency is one very important way to accomplish that: I can't make a real choice unless it's an informed one.

55 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

in my experience with people who've suffered here, the worst threats come looking for them. They don't require you to ask for a ticket to the abuse.

True, but also not really relevant. The fact that one form of threat is more prevalent doesn't obviate the need to respond to another, less common, one.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra

[LittleMe Jewell]

23 minutes ago, Moraxo said:

You are correct. Banksy is one of my favorite modern artists, I got to see the MOCO Museum in Amsterdam a few month back. ♥ I wouldn't have backed out of the buy either tbh but I am curious as to how much of that was actually set up given how good Banksy is at veiling things and getting you to look through only his... "Experience" hahaha

I guess you'd never go to Dismaland or a Meow Wolf exhibit... Your loss...WAIT A SEC... Presumably you wouldnt even get on a ride or something like Pirates of the Caribbean at Disney since your EXPERIENCE is already dictated for you...even though people seem to have their own experiences and opinions of such a thing. Would you not let a friend drive you around their town and show you around either? How far does this refusal to follow go for you I wonder.....

Life is about concessions and compromise....not willing to make any? Enjoy being alone I guess...

You seem to have missed the part where I said that "I actually almost never do 'tours' ".  Key word being 'almost'.  Just like SL experiences, there are places where they are useful, but that does not mean that they are always useful - IMO.

In RL, I might miss some things because I refuse to do the "tour".  Ditto for SL and since I make that choice, I can live with that.  I'm simply stating my view and creators might want to at least CONSIDER that viewpoint.  If an 'Experience' is not really needed for anything other than to massage your ego of your creation, then you might want to consider not forcing it upon the visitor.  There are some creations that actually NEED to be experienced a certain way in order for them to work -- some of the Twisted Hunt and Halloween things most definitely fit this category, as do many/most games.  RP is also something that could really make some interesting uses of Experiences.  But to just see a random sim and wander about enjoying the creativity and being amazed at some of the work, does not NEED an Experience - IMO.

Do you really need to explain everything about your creation rather than let others interpret it on their own - much like someone might interpret art without having the artist there to explain it all?

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[LittleMe Jewell]

12 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

My understanding was that the shredding stopped halfway down the painting, still leaving the buyer with something useful and in fact probably more valuable, while making the popular press be all BANKSY BANKSY BANKSY BANKSY BANKSY ad nauseum.

Yes, true.  If it had shredded all the way, IMO, it would have resulted in something totally useless and I would not have continued with the purchase.  Likely the same with the actual purchaser.

[Phorumities]

45 minutes ago, Moraxo said:

You are correct. Banksy is one of my favorite modern artists, I got to see the MOCO Museum in Amsterdam a few month back. ♥ I wouldn't have backed out of the buy either tbh but I am curious as to how much of that was actually set up given how good Banksy is at veiling things and getting you to look through only his... "Experience" hahaha

I guess you'd never go to Dismaland or a Meow Wolf exhibit... Your loss...WAIT A SEC... Presumably you wouldnt even get on a ride or something like Pirates of the Caribbean at Disney since your EXPERIENCE is already dictated for you...even though people seem to have their own experiences and opinions of such a thing. Would you not let a friend drive you around their town and show you around either? How far does this refusal to follow go for you I wonder.....

Life is about concessions and compromise....not willing to make any? Enjoy being alone I guess...

We're still not gonna do your experience

[Moraxo]

32 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Do you really need to explain everything about your creation rather than let others interpret it on their own - much like someone might interpret art without having the artist there to explain it all?

No you don't.

However this is Second Life... many seem to move through things on here at a blinding speed.

A little guidance is good, even if they choose not to use it.

6 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

We're still not gonna do your experience

That is fine, I do not need everyone to come to my sim. Just the people that will enjoy it ♥ There is plenty of Second Life for everyone.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Moraxo

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

   If I were to make an art installation, an themed adventure area, or any other build wherein an experience would be useful and conducive to the visitors' enjoyment, I wouldn't make accepting the experience an admission requirement, insofar as it doesn't interfere with others' enjoyment of said experience.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

When I go to an art gallery, I might not peel things out the frame, but I choose which things I want to take time to ponder, which ones I totally walk by ignoring, and what order I want to see things in.  I never ever do tours in museums or art galleries - I actually almost never do 'tours' anyway, since it dictates how I will experience something.

Yes yes yes to pretty much everything here.

I don't generally take tours, but I've had numerous experiences of the guide being better than the gallery. This is worth considering with experiences. Is this a tour of art, or is the tour itself the art? If I get the sense it'll be the latter, take my money and take control.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Luna Bliss]

22 minutes ago, Moraxo said:

That is fine, I do not need everyone to come to my sim. Just the people that will enjoy it ♥ There is plenty of Second Life for everyone.

You pay X amount for your sim each month, you spent countless hours developing it. You have have a 'message' you want to convey to others who hopefully appreciate it.
Experiencing a sim like this reminds me of so many VR Experiences & Games I've played -- total control of my avatar right down to dressing me as an astronaut in space, or adorning me with miner's clothes on a trip through a mine. Love it!
I don't even think the 'sim' should ask permission, but rather you just arrive and you are THERE...experiencing what the author has in mind.
Somebody doesn't want to experience this? Don't visit!!

Edited October 17, 2018 by Luna Bliss

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

You want to be in the sim but you can't because you don't want to grant Experience to take your freedoms. Yet, you are free to decline but then you're not experiencing the Experience there and you're on your own. But at least you have control over your own freedoms, but it's still a bugger that you can't experience the sim with your freedoms intact.

It's like Stan of the People's Front of Judea, who wants to be called Loretta, because he wants to have babies but he doesn't have a womb so he can't really have babies, but he she should at least have the right to have babies.

My brain hurts.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Yes, yes. And to those proclaiming "it's nothing to fear or worry about..., yadda, yadda" - I can only speak for myself, but there is no fear or worry. It's a matter of principle for me, at least with regard to the "take it or leave the sim" ones. I don't accept ultimatums very well.

Because I AM REBEL.

So, if someone tells you to do something, you do the opposite?

In that case, aren't your actions exactly as constrained by the other person as if you did do what they told you to do?

[LittleMe Jewell]

Returning to the Disneyland analogy:  Yes, I need the Experience in order to properly do/experience something like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride.  However, I don't need the Experience to just wander around the park enjoying the wonderful builds.  Someone might want to give me a tour (experience), but it isn't really NEEDED just to see and love the park itself - thus taking the tour should be optional.  

Yes, there are things in SL that are like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride, but there are far more things that are simply like the Disney park.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Skell Dagger]

19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't even think the 'sim' should ask permission, but rather you just arrive and you are THERE...experiencing what the author has in mind.
Somebody doesn't want to experience this? Don't visit!!

What is being requested here is transparency: knowledge upfront that - if you enter an area or location - you will have to accept the experience that will take over control of your avatar, especially if that is the only way you can proceed in the area.

In your scenario, above, where there isn't even a request for permission to take control of the avatar, let us picture a possible conversation:

Avatar A: "Hey you should visit this cool place. I loved it. It's a space sim and it takes you on a ride through the universe. Here's a landmark."
Avatar B: "Oh hey, thanks. I'll go tomorrow."
The next day, Avatar B teleports to the landmark location, and instantly (and without warning) their avatar is controlled, their outfit (possibly not saved, although it took them an hour to put it together) is removed and changed for something else, and they're flying helter-skelter through the epilepsy-inducing closing scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey.

One seizure later...

The alternative scenario would be that - once Avatar B lands at the location - they're in a 'space portal' where they receive a notecard that tells them - if they accept the experience - then their outfit will be changed and they will lose control of their avatar. There would also be a warning that the experience contains flashing lights. This gives them the choice to accept the experience.

If they then go through with it, they click the 'space portal' door, accept the experience, and then watch while their avatar changes into the spacesuit and gets into the escape pod...

"Don't want to experience it? Then don't visit it!" only works if you know what 'it' is, upfront.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Skell Dagger

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

However, I don't need the Experience to just wander around the park enjoying the wonderful builds.

Hit Escape and appreciate the view the artist has in mind -- you might be surprised (that is if the artist designed the park with certain views/perspective in mind).

[animats]

The list of experiences the user interface says I have.

Now, here's the list of experiences Firestorm's debug log loaded at startup.

• "'Experience Firestorm'"
• "'Folkvang'"
• "'Horizons'"
• "'Learning Island Telemetry'"
• "'Social Island 2013-10'"

OK, those are all visible in the user interface. But these below aren't.

• "'Experience SLRR Radioactive Rosca'" (From a train on Heterocera, I think)
• "'WoW Animations'" (?)
• "'Experience Luskwood'" (?)
• "'Experience Shergood Aviation'" (Shergood gave me a ride in one of her fancier helicopters, where you can walk around in flight.)
• "'Treasure Hunters - Caves of the Behemoth'" (?)
• "'SHiP Neighborhood Teleportation'" (?)
• "'Cornfield'" (From the SL 15 year festival.)
• "'AnimAlive'" (No idea.)
• "'KittyCatS!'" (No idea.)
• "'NTBI EXP v1.0'" (I've been to NTBI places.)
• "'PQ2015'" (?)
• "'Experience CUTE but FAST Tuning'" (From one of Rachel Stardust's cars, probably.)
• "'Frejas Quest'" (Janet's Viking sim.)
• "'Xplicit'" (?)
• "'MadPea'" (?)
• "'CM1'" (?)
• "'Pony Town Experience'" (?)
• "'Flux Network'" (?)
• "'Experience milena doll'" (?)
• "'The Mole Experience'" (Visited the Mole Village once)
• "'Ravenglass Transporter'" (?)

Most of those just seem to have attached through sitting or riding on something. I'm sure I didn't explicitly accept an experience dialog for all of those. Why the difference? And do the hidden ones have any privileges?

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, ok. But you're generalizing from your own experience and self-knowledge, Maddy. Most of us aren't you.

You (and others) have made that observation before. And it grows more true over time. This is that deeper issue we won't have time to investigate.

When I was a teen, I was taken to see a production of Les Miserables. I hated every damned moment of it -- not because it was poorly performed, staged, or written, but because it was so blatantly manipulative. By the end of the play, I was positively sobbing, and cursing the playwrights with every heave.

I saw Les Miz in college. I can't remember anything about it. I cursed being manipulated, but I curse me, not the one who did it. As I said, kudos to them.

I don't want to be manipulated (and emotional manipulation is the easiest, and most potentially abusive kind): I want to be challenged.

I care less about the manipulation than the intent, but it doesn't seem productive to me to ask others to stop trying to manipulate me. They vastly outnumber me (and you). It try to recognize manipulation, and figure out what I want to do with it. This is, of course, a fool's errand. I can't resist the hope that I'm smart enough to protect myself. This massive ratio of manipulators (everyone, including the manipulated) to the manipulated individual leads me to favor helping the individual. Thankfully, there are people approaching this from other angles, as you do.

Well, yes. Neither I, nor the OP (I think -- she can weigh in if I'm wrong) are calling for an end to Experiences. We're asking for more and better choices. And transparency is one very important way to accomplish that: I can't make a real choice unless it's an informed one.

If the transparency is provided by the creator of the experience, you're still trusting someone else.

True, but also not really relevant. The fact that one form of threat is more prevalent doesn't obviate the need to respond to another, less common, one.

The tools of self protection work. Developing the comfort to use them for the most prevalent threats would help with the less prevalent (and I think less pernicious) threats. How many people who have got comfortable with block/mute/ignore etc, will be triggered by an experience they "unwittingly" requested? The population of actual triggers is larger than the population of known triggers, so relying on experience creators to anticipate triggers will still leave some people... triggered.

I don't mean to seem cold*. SL is a pretty low threat environment for most people. I'd rather extend my hand to help a sensitive soul than my arm to block everyone else. And it's nice to know you've got my back, by facing in another direction.

*(Another way of saying I'm trying to seem warm, and this is the best I can do?)

Edited October 17, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

One seizure later...

"Don't want to experience it? Then don't visit it!" only works if you know what 'it' is, upfront.

I don't know how this type of thing will evolve in SL -- it's complicated because we can't see a description of the sim before we enter like we can with VR experiences and games. Perhaps as more sims become Experience heavy there will need to be a different kind of portal into them.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Luna Bliss

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Returning to the Disneyland analogy:  Yes, I need the Experience in order to properly do/experience something like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride.  However, I don't need the Experience to just wander around the park enjoying the wonderful builds.  Someone might want to give me a tour (experience), but it isn't really NEEDED just to see and love the park itself - thus taking the tour should be optional.  

Yes, there are things in SL that are like the Pirates of the Caribbean ride, but there are far more things that are simply like the Disney park.

 

To wander around in Disneyland, though, you need a ticket to get in first.

There's this theory in this thread that an "Experience" automatically locks you into a course of action rather than giving you free choice. However, the way a Second Life experience works it can just as easily be used to facilitate your free choice. There are many things in Second Life where you are asked permission to have something done to you after you've taken a positive action that would indicate you want to do that thing. The classic example is poseball furniture, which have to ask permission to animate you (and the permission request is often vanished into a closed notice so you have to consciously do an act - open the notice - before you can grant permission to the poseball to animate you which is why you sat on it in the first place.) If you let an experience handle the permissions it can allow you to skip all those steps.

[Madelaine McMasters]

9 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

"Don't want to experience it? Then don't visit it!" only works if you know what 'it' is, upfront.

Yep, and I think it's reasonable to give a basic head's up as you suggested. I also think it's okay to post that at the entrance, giving you the all-or-nothing choice, though it sounds like that's not currently possible.

[Luna Bliss]

I designed a sim once where there was a long pathway, and as one crossed a bridge I deliberately made phantom, they fell into an abyss. It was a beautiful abyss, and I wanted them to see it, and to be shocked and surprised when they fell into it.

Now some people were pissed about this fall, and others loved it. So who should one side with?

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I designed a sim once where there was a long pathway, and as one crossed a bridge I deliberately made phantom, they fell into an abyss. It was a beautiful abyss, and I wanted them to see it, and to be shocked and surprised when they fell into it.

Now some people were pissed about this fall, and others loved it. So who should one side with?

Anyone care to guess where I fall on falling?