Sad that popular places are turning into Experiences with no option to visit without accepting

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I'm especially unlikely to go to any event that will force an experience on me during this season anyway. I don't handle horror type events well and in fact to this day am still plagued with images from the Exorcist that show up in nightmares. Honestly, wish I'd never gone to that movie all those years ago. Also, I would like up front info before accepting an experience in regard to particles and bright flashing lights as they trigger migraines for me. So yes, I can quickly leave but sometimes it's too late and I'll be suffering with a migraine for hours after leaving. 

I think Skell dealt with this same issue quite well. It's probably not possible to plan ahead for every eventuality, but when something has been explicitly added to an experience (such as horrifying imagery or a collapsing bridge) that is actually intended to shock and surprise, then it should be pretty simple to provide at least a general warning that such things are part of the experience.

In 2011, I put together an exhibit on representations of sexual violence in SL (to which Maddy alludes, above). It was (indeed, is: to my surprise, it's still there) intended to shock, and includes a great deal of extremely explicit imagery and language, as well as one potentially upsetting interactive element. For that reason, there is a very prominent trigger warning at the entrance to the exhibit.

Were I to create such an exhibit now, in 2018, I would, I suppose, be tempted to use an "Experience" for it: I can imagine all sorts of ways in which this could be employed to make the exhibit more powerful and emotionally affecting than it already is. I don't think I'd do so, though, precisely because that would likely be overkill, and it would reduce the "distance" required for critical appraisal and thinking which was actually the main point of the exhibit. As I note above, somewhere, emotional manipulation is the easiest, and ultimately most dangerous kind of audience manipulation.

But if I *did* use an experience, it would 1) have a very clear trigger warning, and 2) offer the option of seeing the exhibit without using the experience. An "experience" should never be emotionally damaging, nor should it be so overwhelming that it essentially drowns out thought.

[AyelaNewLife]

On 10/17/2018 at 5:29 PM, Moraxo said:

I'm kinda of curious of everyone commenting who has owned/built/managed a sim?

I can kind of understand the RLV and experience fear as when I first rezzed only a few months ago I was confused and terrified by it all. However after understanding and using it a bit more Its become a non issue to me, I dont go to sims where I would typically have to worry about being tricked or trolled so if there is an experience I'll typically take it if I'm interested in the sim.

But as a creator and sim builder... If you dont want to EXPERIENCE my sim they way I envisioned it and would like people to engage with it...why are you here? Its my creation! What, would you go to an art gallery and start peeling things out of their frames and cases because YOU want to experience them differently?? Ludicrous... Now on the flip side I think of museums that have the little audio guides... most times I dont use them because I am in the museum for something specific so I dont use it and go about my way... the difference here? I PAID TO GET IN. If you're just FREELY going into other peoples sims the LEAST you could do is accept the experience... I'm sure im not the only person in SL who takes pride in their sim.

In direct reference to the OP, I think(and hope) it will become more prevalent as more sim owners (RP sims especially) are starting to see the convenience and utility of Experiences but I also hope SL continues to fine tune how they work as there could be improvements as others have noted. If I were you I would IM and NC the sim owners or mods to ask about being able to enter without the experience but If it was my sim I'd grill the heck out of ya as to why you wanna come in my sim without the experience...not that Id would say no for certain but yeah..

Very, very few sim owners are actually good at all aspects of building a sim.

A now-closed beach sim I used to visit had one of the worst windlights I've ever seen. It was supernova-bright, the glare made it near impossible to see what things actually looked like, the colour of the light changed massively as the sim clock ticked over, it was a nightmare. But the sim itself was beautiful (with Midday 1 lol). Gorgeously terraformed, and well decorated. Sure I had to change windlight each time I visited, but with that one quick and easy change I was able to actually enjoy a gorgeous sim, and take a range of photos there - because there was no mandatory experience.

Another sim I use for pics has a mandatory experience. And the sim owner... well, I'm not a fan of his lighting choices. The experience forces a windlight change every time you step through a door, or stand up off a piece of furniture (or pose stand), and that windlight smothers everything in a thick blue fog, both the indoor skyboxes and the outdoor section of the sim. It's totally at odds with the vibe of the sim, and totally useless for taking pics of any kind - despite this sim advertising itself as a "photography" sim. I can work around it by learning where and when the experience triggers a windlight change, but it's a pain in the ass. Which is a shame, because his sim includes some fantastic indoor rooms for pics, it's a great community resource, but that sim experience has put off more than a few photographers that I've spoken to at the sim.

Sim owners are rarely as competent as you think you are. You'll make mistakes and make terrible design choices, because you're a hobbyist doing something for fun. Without experiences, that's totally fine, I can just make some minor changes on my end so that I can enjoy the good parts of your work - everyone is happy. Unless you decide that you know best (hint; you don't) and use experiences to force your decisions onto visitors.

To borrow your own analogy; audio guides are great, and many people will choose use them to add to their visit. A sim experience is like making the guides compulsory, and having a security guard follow you around and beat you with a club every time you move the guide away from your ear. It's honestly at that level of obnoxious, there's no need for it, and will just turn visitors away for no benefit to you. Everybody loses.

Edit: But I have no issue with an experience that just makes teleporting smoother than traditional TP pads. That's fine. Just leave my graphical settings alone.

Edited October 18, 2018 by AyelaNewLife
some words

[Robin Kiyori]

I want to weight in with my thoughts on this, but first.  Can people really pretty-please,  not  insult people by implying they are stupid or lack "congitve ability." The casual alebism is not conductive to debate and makes people like me, with actual learning difficulties feel uncomfortable at best.

That PSA outta the way. On to the opinions.

I don't think people are necessarily saying all experiences are bad, But that there is a potential and they should at least explain either through a sign or other means what they actually entail so that the experience is actually pleasant and fun. Which I think is pretty reasonable and  just common  sense really. Nobody wants to lead in blind to something that could be potentially harmful. It's why various media platforms have  warnings and age restrictions. So that people are not harmed.  Of course these measures are not always  perfect,  but  they can be refined and  so on.

At the same time there is also a good counter-argument that being too paranoid of experiences  is also detrimental and I can see that, especially when it comes to stores where the experience is  nine times out of ten simply a means to streamline  tp's and  make sure nobody can simply cheat their way through a hunt. That the chances of experiencing a truly abusive use of it in a store is pretty low.  But on the same  hand  low isn't zero.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch for someone. Which should be respected.

My view is, It costs zero lindens to just simply slap a sign up going. "YO NERDS, please accept (or reject) the sim experience for: blah blah explanation goes here".  Leaving it ambiguous and accept or GTFO is kinda dumb.  But experiences are untimely not a boogey man.

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, AylinVali said:

I want to weight in with my thoughts on this, but first.  Can people really pretty-please,  not  insult people by implying they are stupid or lack "congitve ability." The casual alebism is not conductive to debate and makes people like me, with actual learning difficulties feel uncomfortable at best.

Thanks!

[AyelaNewLife]

3 minutes ago, AylinVali said:

I want to weight in with my thoughts on this, but first.  Can people really pretty-please,  not  insult people by implying they are stupid or lack "congitve ability." The casual alebism is not conductive to debate and makes people like me, with actual learning difficulties feel uncomfortable at best.

While I don't think this was aimed at me, I reworded bits anyway to make them a little less aggressive 

4 minutes ago, AylinVali said:

My view is, It costs zero lindens to just simply slap a sign up going. "YO NERDS, please accept (or reject) the sim experience for: blah blah explanation goes here".  Leaving it ambiguous and accept or GTFO is kinda dumb.  But experiences are untimely not a boogey man.

As long as the sim owner a) explains what the experience is for, and b) allows the sim to function with the experience blocked, then that's fine. The second example I use has experience-only TPing, so I don't have an option but to suffer the poor lighting choices of the sim owner if I want to actually use the sim. That's just poor sim design.

[KT Kingsley]

21 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The experience forces a windlight change

I didn't think that had been implemented yet. Are you sure that's what happens?

[Selene Gregoire]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Does everyone who hesitates to grant Experience permissions also never listen to a DJ's stream except through a whole separate VPN connection than they're using for SL? 

Maybe not everyone but for me, my RL other half DJs in SL so if I want to listen I can just grab his stream. Or I can just sit here and listen to him singing along with a song or two. He's really the only DJ I listen to because he is an "old school" DJ. He DJs the way it's done on a radio station that you listen to on your car radio. It's just my personal preference as is not granting experience permissions when confronted with "accept or leave". I'll just leave as there are plenty of sims to enjoy that don't have experiences. At least, the ones I've visited since I've been back haven't offered me any experiences that I've noticed.

I think it really boils down to personal preferences. That's not something an experience creator will ever have any "control" over.

[Luna Bliss]

52 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think Skell dealt with this same issue quite well. It's probably not possible to plan ahead for every eventuality, but when something has been explicitly added to an experience (such as horrifying imagery or a collapsing bridge) that is actually intended to shock and surprise, then it should be pretty simple to provide at least a general warning that such things are part of the experience.

The sim I created with a collapsing bridge had no Experiences in it at all, so not sure how one could give a warning. It was a kind of Lovecraft sim, with strange elements (overgrown creepy tropical plants, snakes, and with a dreamy somewhat dark yet colorful feel), so I would think one who TP'd into such an environment would expect some unknown/scary elements.

I guess I could have provided a text warning upon landing @ the main landing point, saying something like "If you're expecting Meadowlark Hills Estates this ain't it, so enter at your own risk". The problem is, there were many landing points in that sim.

Anyway, there are lots of sims like that and there always has been...sims with unusual/scary/unknown elements (traps, dropping through what appears to be solid prims)….all without the Experiences we have now.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Very, very few sim owners are actually good at all aspects of building a sim.

I hope you aren't one of those who sent random messages to me while flying through my sims, messages like:

"The water is too blue, it should not be so blue"

"Why do you have a big rabbit in the park"?

[AyelaNewLife]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I hope you aren't one of those who sent random messages to me while flying through my sims, messages like:

"The water is too blue, it should not be so blue"

"Why do you have a big rabbit in the park"?

Oh no, I would never do that, don't worry.

I just say that to myself

[AyelaNewLife]

44 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

I didn't think that had been implemented yet. Are you sure that's what happens?

Yes, I just confirmed it by disallowing the experience and walking over the trigger point repeatedly - no windlight changes. Accepted the experience again, and it resets my lighting once more.

[KT Kingsley]

7 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Yes, I just confirmed it by disallowing the experience and walking over the trigger point repeatedly - no windlight changes. Accepted the experience again, and it resets my lighting once more.

Any scripters reading this that can tell me what the function that does this is? This is a feature I've been looking out for, and I seem to have missed it.

[Qie Niangao]

49 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

Any scripters reading this that can tell me what the function that does this is? This is a feature I've been looking out for, and I seem to have missed it.

Literally changing Windlight settings isn't scriptable yet, not even in the test version of EEP that's currently installed on a few Linden Village sims. That is, however, very much the intended future EEP functionality.

Not sure what else could simulate the effect. An Experience can pretty seamlessly teleport the agent to a different location with different windlight settings (currently only applied in some TPVs). Or attach something that changes the appearance of existing Windlight settings.

Or... dunno, other magic? But it can't actually change windlight the way EEP will be able to, eventually.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, AylinVali said:

I want to weight in with my thoughts on this, but first.  Can people really pretty-please,  not  insult people by implying they are stupid or lack "congitve ability." The casual alebism is not conductive to debate and makes people like me, with actual learning difficulties feel uncomfortable at best.

 

I'd also like to add to this the absurd assertion that people are able to detect hysteria and paranoia in posts here as well.  These also do nothing to advance the discussion and instead seem aimed at stifling it.

[KT Kingsley]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Literally changing Windlight settings isn't scriptable yet, not even in the test version of EEP that's currently installed on a few Linden Village sims. That is, however, very much the intended future EEP functionality.

Not sure what else could simulate the effect. An Experience can pretty seamlessly teleport the agent to a different location with different windlight settings (currently only applied in some TPVs). Or attach something that changes the appearance of existing Windlight settings.

Or... dunno, other magic? But it can't actually change windlight the way EEP will be able to, eventually.

I thought as much.

As seamless as experience teleports might be, they're really not so seamless that the join isn't glaringly (pun not intended, but left in anyway) obvious.

RLV can change Windlight settings. Any script can play with local lights, which might be mistaken for changing Windlight settings.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Experience Perms are particularly useful to merchants for teleporting visitors round a large store without presenting them with a dialog request each time.    Yes, it can be done by "sit teleports", but experience perms teleporters are often easier to configure and maintain.      

They're also useful because they can seamlessly temp-attach sample items which don't create entries in your inventory and which detach and vanish when you relog or leave the store.   So you can let people try on regular examples of your goods without having to make special copies with Sample labels floating about.     Furthermore, if the shop sells scripted furniture, the furniture will frequently want to temp-attach props, like books or cups of coffee, without pestering the avatar for permissions each time.

I've worked with experiences a lot and I really don't see much potential for successful griefing, not least because it's so easy to leave the experience and to identify what object caused the problems and to whom it belongs.  That's available to the avatar and also, in the case of an abuse report, to LL, and the fact that experiences can be owned only by premium members means that the owner probably isn't a throw-away alt.

I suppose it would probably be more polite most of the time not to insist on people accepting the experience in order to enter the region.    Instead, ask them to accept it the first time they try to interact with something that needs experience perms to operate.    Once the perms are granted, they won't be asked for again.   Personally, I wouldn't advise forcing people to accept an experience unless it was necessary ro the area to function (for a game area, for example), but that's more about good manners than security.

If I wanted to grief people, I could have far more fun -- and my throwaway alts would be far less easy to trace back to me -- by exploiting the fact that so many people wander around with open RLV relays and no real idea of how to configure them than I would by playing with experience perms.    Nevertheless, my RLV relay (which is properly configured) very rarely reports any suspicious activity when I'm wandering round SL.   I really don't think that people have much need to worry about Experience Perms.

Really the main concern for me isn't the potential for griefing, I have experienced griefing, is it tediously banal and does not concern me at all.  For me it really is the principle of being asked to give to up control of my avatar to another person(s).  I also don't have a problem with being teleported if I have taken the conscious action to step through a portal nor that I will be animated if I choose to sit.
The difference is that you choose to do these things each time and are not forced to sit nor have your camera view changed without interaction with an object and if you don't like what it does, you just stand up and move on without have to abort the entire visit.

Here is a thought though, it would have been good if LL had provided a way to have proper teleport portals outside of Experiences, with automatic appropriate clues from the viewer that a portal will teleport, such as a mouse pointer change for example.  This would seem to cater for a lot of the stated reasons for needing them and I know there were many calls for just that.

On a side note, there is at least one furniture vendor I buy from that does have furniture which temporarily attaches cups, books, laptops as part of their furniture but this does not require an Experience to work either, just the permission you grant when sitting.

[KT Kingsley]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

On a side note, there is at least one furniture vendor I buy from that does have furniture which temporarily attaches cups, books, laptops as part of their furniture but this does not require an Experience to work either, just the permission you grant when sitting.

Yet another piece of script functionality I seem to have missed out on. I'd love to know how it's done.

[AyelaNewLife]

33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Literally changing Windlight settings isn't scriptable yet, not even in the test version of EEP that's currently installed on a few Linden Village sims. That is, however, very much the intended future EEP functionality.

Not sure what else could simulate the effect. An Experience can pretty seamlessly teleport the agent to a different location with different windlight settings (currently only applied in some TPVs). Or attach something that changes the appearance of existing Windlight settings.

Or... dunno, other magic? But it can't actually change windlight the way EEP will be able to, eventually.

Obligatory "I'm not a scripter" disclaimer. 

I'm a simple girl. I walk through invisible wall, the lighting changes, including the sun angle on my windlight panel changing; I say the experience is changing my windlight settings. It's not a simulated effect, my windlight settings are actually being changed. I've watched this happen on two different viewers so far, over the course of several months.

How exactly the sim is doing that, I'm not sure. But it doesn't show this behaviour with the sim experience blocked. If I had to guess, I'd say the sim was attaching an object which is scripted to change my windlight settings, then unattaching it a second or two later - if that's even possible?

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Mirage/21/217/3447

The windlight change triggers when you load, when you walk through the gap in the banister in the landing zone, and when you walk through any of the TP doors to another part of the sim, and whenever you stand up from a piece of furniture. Go play, I'd love to know how it's changing my windlight settings with the sim experience.

Edited October 18, 2018 by AyelaNewLife
forgot some words

[KT Kingsley]

17 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Mirage/21/217/3447

The windlight change triggers when you load, when you walk through the gap in the banister in the landing zone, and when you walk through any of the TP doors to another part of the sim, and whenever you stand up from a piece of furniture. Go play, I'd love to know how it's changing my windlight settings with the sim experience.

Just tried that. It's temporarily attaching an RLV scripted object (using the experience permissions) which does the Windlight changes and which then detaches itself.

Edited October 18, 2018 by KT Kingsley

[AyelaNewLife]

2 minutes ago, KT Kingsley said:

Just tried that. It's temporarily attaching an RLV scripted object which does the Windlight changes and which then detaches itself.

Gotcha. Any idea why that works when I have RLV disabled on my viewer?

Edited October 18, 2018 by AyelaNewLife

[KT Kingsley]

1 minute ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Gotcha. Any idea why that works when I have RLV disabled on my viewer?

I think you may have turned your RLV relay off, but still have RLV enabled in your viewer.

The attachment that does the Windlight changes won't need to use the relay because it can llOwnerSay the RLV commands to you directly. You're wearing it, so you're the owner, even if it is only a temporary attachment that doesn't show in your inventory and detaches itself automatically.

I did turn RLV off at my viewer level, and looked in again. All I got was a screenfull of RLV llOwnerSay that didn't have any effect.

[AyelaNewLife]

Just now, KT Kingsley said:

I think you may have turned your RLV relay off, but still have RLV enabled in your viewer.

The attachment that does the Windlight changes won't need to use the relay because it can llOwnerSay the RLV commands to you directly. You're wearing it, so you're the owner, even if it is only a temporary attachment that doesn't show in your inventory and detaches itself automatically.

I did turn RLV off at my viewer level, and looked in again. All I got was a screenfull of RLV llOwnerSay that didn't have any effect.

Makes sense, thanks! I've not really touched RLV for anything, never had the need, so wasn't aware of the difference.

[KT Kingsley]

And I got an interesting LM for future exploration out of it! Thanks.

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

On a side note, there is at least one furniture vendor I buy from that does have furniture which temporarily attaches cups, books, laptops as part of their furniture but this does not require an Experience to work either, just the permission you grant when sitting.

I'm sorry, but what you describe is not possible with LSL.   When props rez they can't attach to you without requesting permission to attach.   They can do this either directly -- in which case you see a dialog menu telling you that the item wants to attach -- or indirectly, through an experience, in which case you don't see any dialog messages other than the first one you saw when you joined the experience.

What you describe may be someone selling furniture using the AvSitter experience.    If that's the case, then check your viewer to see which experiences you've accepted in the past.   I'm willing to bet AvSitter is one of them.     If it is, leave the AvSitter experience and then try to use the furniture again.    I would expect that you'll then see a request to join the AvSitter experience.

ETA: Or it could all be managed by RLV, but I doubt it in this sort of application.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Innula Zenovka

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Really the main concern for me isn't the potential for griefing, I have experienced griefing, is it tediously banal and does not concern me at all.  For me it really is the principle of being asked to give to up control of my avatar to another person(s).  I also don't have a problem with being teleported if I have taken the conscious action to step through a portal nor that I will be animated if I choose to sit.
The difference is that you choose to do these things each time and are not forced to sit nor have your camera view changed without interaction with an object and if you don't like what it does, you just stand up and move on without have to abort the entire visit.

Depends on the nature of the area using the experience, I think,     

If I'm scripting a Halloween ride, for example, I will most likely use experience perms to sit you in the car and keep you seated until the riide finishes, and if you manage to leave your seat, I'll teleport you direct to the ride's exit, because I don't want people getting out of the cars and wandering around inside the attraction.