gacha LL Policy for Gacha Games is a need

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How about adding, "14. If someone has a vested interest in gatcha items working in a certain way, such as their running gatcha-resale establishments, they should disclose that when they make a proposal"?

Score !!!

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

I am leaving this thread, lol.

We hear this all the time here.

 

See.........................

2 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

If they were just to use, they would be sold only in copy versions. Good luck.

 

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

If they were just to use, they would be sold only in copy versions. Good luck.

so nobody uses it and we all should resell... we could better start doing it with plywood boxes, lots less efford to make...

[OxfordLennox]

38 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

3 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

I am leaving this thread, lol.

We hear this all the time here.

Then you kill many threads and you better get a job. I won't feed the trolls is a better way to say that.

It's so funny how the people revert the words here.

Good luck to the thread owner. Good luck to all with winning prizes of gachas. I hope you get what you want. Have a nice weekend. (=

[Drake1 Nightfire]

6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How about adding, "14. If someone has a vested interest in gatcha items working in a certain way, such as their running gatcha-resale establishments, they should disclose that when they make a proposal"?

Anyone else smell the smoke off that burn?

[Coffee Pancake]

NEE NAW NEE NAW

[Chic Aeon]

So I just want to note that not all gacha machines (or venues) work the same.  At Gimme Gacha (the one I am in most often - Gacha Garden, Gachaland and Imaginarium) uses their own machines with their own scripts. ALL vendors use those machines and customers can very easily see the chance for  the RARE items by looking in the description field of the machine. There are no UltraRares.  And if you play the machine 20 times you also get the "special prize".   And THAT special prize is a one time only thing -- so no reselling by the creator in any way. (So no gambling to get that special prize, it is a BONUS. 

 

Now, the idea is that the special prize is special. LOL. And I work hard to make my special prizes pretty damn good. At the same time others in the events do not simply because they don't want to "waste their time" when they can't use the item again.  That being said, a really nice "special prize" can get the creator 4 or 5 times more than they would get normally (this just from my own experience - it could be more).   So I make my money once and the sets are pretty much retired except for folks that want to play them in my shop. 

This is a decision that a creator makes.  As I said, when I CAN sell as both copy or transfer, I do that method. Easier for everyone. 

 

Personally I am not big on gacha resellers; I like for money to go to the folks that made the products. But the aftermarket is  part of the method and means and so they come with the package.  

Gachas are gambling IN SOME SENSE, but they cannot be equated with a slot machine. Each time you play the gacha you GET an ITEM. The item is shown in the gacha key (so not even like a grab bag). If a gacha machine has 12 cars of different colors and you don't care what color car you get, then you pay 50- 75 lindens or whatever for a RANDOM COLOR of car. You DO get something. Not the same as a slot machine or even a sploader.

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[mikka Luik]

Been meaning to dust off my 'give something from contents decided on some random spread when someone pays me' script. Not exactly dragon magic to write. Would add it to library if it was opened.

[Dakota Linden]

Greetings all!

I would only caution against referring to gatcha as skill gaming, or gambling.  

Gatcha items are more akin to Pokemon or Baseball cards, in that you buy a pack, are guaranteed to get something, but it may or may not be the one you want.  You might get ones you don't have already, or you may get duplicates of ones you got, or stuff you do not want.  Or as has been said elsewhere on the forums, they are like the gumball machines that give out tattoos, or plastic rings, or other "goodies".  You put in your coins/tokens, turn the handle and get something. 

Gambling and Slot machines are paying in for a random chance to win something, hopefully that something is the jackpot.  You may get nothing, you may get something, you may get back what you paid in, or if you are really lucky, you will win the big jackpot. 

Gatcha items always give something.  

With regards to the Loot Boxes in video games, those loot boxes usually give benefits to the player.  Sometimes it is an XP buff, or an outright block of experience, etc. In some games it is a ship, or mount, or other "thing" that may give them an advantage over other users.

Second Life isn't a video game.  Buying Gatcha items imparts no bonus or advantage to users who play compared to users who do not.  

The best, and only, way to currently address Gatcha items is to ensure that all sellers/resellers comply with the Marketplace Listing Guidelines policies.

If you see items on the Marketplace that do not comply with the Listing Guidelines Policy, report the listing so that the issue can be addressed. 

 

[Callum Meriman]

37 minutes ago, Dakota Linden said:

With regards to the Loot Boxes in video games, those loot boxes usually give benefits to the player.  Sometimes it is an XP buff, or an outright block of experience, etc. In some games it is a ship, or mount, or other "thing" that may give them an advantage over other users.

Second Life isn't a video game.  Buying Gatcha items imparts no bonus or advantage to users who play compared to users who do not. 

Loot boxes are generally for cosmetic enhancements. An outfit, or a weapon skin. In fact, playing many MMOs, I would say most loot boxes are cosmetic as Pay-To-Win is greatly looked down upon by western audiences.

A gatcha rare can finish off a home or outfit in the same way a weapon or clothing skin can set one apart in an MMO/FPS.

I also leave this which underlies the ban in the Netherlands

Quote

 

The Gaming Authority in the Netherlands also recently declared that some loot boxes in four out of ten (unnamed) games they examined were games of chance, and should be removed.

They didn’t object to all forms of loot boxes, only those whose items could be transferred, which they say gives items a market value. They reject the defence advanced by some that such loot boxes aren’t games of chance because they always give some item, never nothing.

“This argument is not valid,” they said. “The in-game goods differ and have different market values if they can be traded. It is beyond doubt that the real winner is the person who wins the major, valuable prize with a high market value.”

 

from https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/04/26/belgium-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling/ emphasis mine.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

13 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

I also leave this which underlies the ban in the Netherlands

from https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/04/26/belgium-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling/

“This argument is not valid,” they said. “The in-game goods differ and have different market values if they can be traded. It is beyond doubt that the real winner is the person who wins the major, valuable prize with a high market value.” 

Conversely, if they can't be traded then the value of repeats declines. In a system like SL, duplicate copies have zero value to the owner (if it's no transfer, it has to be copy). If it's transfer, at least it can be given to a friend or alt.

Perhaps the only way to reconcile these two poles is a gacha system without rares, where items can be transferred but all have approximately nominally equal value. (edited from: equal market value)

I guess it would be different for a game environment, but only for consumables where duplicates still have use. I'm glad I don't have to decide these things.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Bitsy Buccaneer

[Callum Meriman]

 

17 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I'm glad I don't have to decide these things.

I think we all are.

The changing environment around loot-boxes, with two countries of the world already banning and more looking it is only going to snowball.

In the meantime the lab will trust their lawyers and push a line friendly to USA lawmakers (as we clearly see above). But I do see that either those USA states that ban gambling will pick up on lootboxes, mostly on the guise of "protecting the children", or that a tipping point will be reached in overseas markets as more and more countries pick up what has happened in Belguim and the Netherlands.

What I would love... an effective Gatcha filter on the MP so I don't need to wade through it all.

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

What I would love... an effective Gatcha filter on the MP so I don't need to wade through it all.

I'd rather see a resale filter than a Gatcha filter. I see no purpose in singling out gacha over any other no copy item being sold by someone other than the creator of the product. The significance is that the buyer will know there is risk in purchasing when the seller has no ability to provide customer service.

I love shopping the MP for gacha items. I don't play the machines. I'll gladly do the wading!

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Perhaps the only way to reconcile these two poles is a gacha system without rares, where items can be transferred but all have equal market value.

Gatchas only have the value that people are willing to pay for them. There are thousands of them on the MP with the exact same item yet wildly varying prices. The cheapest ones sell, the rest don't. Hell, to use your example, full perm dress A retextured by Merchant 1 sells for 299L the same dress sold by Merchant 2 sells for 699L, shouldn't they be forced to sell at the same price? It's the same dress, just a different texture... 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 A retextured by Merchant 1 sells for 299L the same dress sold by Merchant 2 sells for 699L, shouldn't they be forced to sell at the same price? It's the same dress, just a different texture... 

such things happen in all parts of the market .. a just opened round of a male event (more or less promotes original mesh), i can point at least two items that are sold on MP for at least a year by other brands with the same mesh template even duplicate in texture ( and lots cheaper)

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

55 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Gatchas only have the value that people are willing to pay for them. There are thousands of them on the MP with the exact same item yet wildly varying prices.

I've edited my post to step away that specific wording, which came from the article. I'd been thinking about some semblence of fairness in the prizes and neglected to consider the wild west, guess work nature of pricing in SL. What I really wanted to talk about was how a no-trans policy would create a different loss of value.

[Dakota Linden]

14 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Loot boxes are generally for cosmetic enhancements. An outfit, or a weapon skin. In fact, playing many MMOs, I would say most loot boxes are cosmetic as Pay-To-Win is greatly looked down upon by western audiences.

A gatcha rare can finish off a home or outfit in the same way a weapon or clothing skin can set one apart in an MMO/FPS.

I also leave this which underlies the ban in the Netherlands

from https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/04/26/belgium-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling/ emphasis mine.

Hello Callum,

It depends on which game you are playing.  Star Trek Online loot boxes used to offer ships, consoles, and other "upgrades" that were only available through the loot boxes, although they could be resold on their in game marketplace.  Those items did, in fact, offer upgrades to users who were willing to buy the boxes in order to try to get the items. 

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I've edited my post to step away that specific wording, which came from the article. I'd been thinking about some semblence of fairness in the prizes and neglected to consider the wild west, guess work nature of pricing in SL. What I really wanted to talk about was how a no-trans policy would create a different loss of value.

Again though, rares and higher only have the value someone is willing to pay. Typically, in clothing gatchas anyway, rares are a "unique" color pattern.  I have seen many "rares" that i personally have found appalling. Rare is just a word. 

[sirhc DeSantis]

No real kitten in this fight as I neither make for, play nor trade but it is interesting to watch. As usual, agree with Callum (filters) and Drake1 (in general).

To Bitsy on pricing - I charge by the quarter hour so pricing has always been fluid....

[Stephanie Misfit]

The OP seems to focus on gacha resellers as those who play machines for the primary purpose of profiting from reselling gachas on the marketplace. There are many people who resell gachas who do not play gachas for that reason, we just end up with so many extras in our inventory that the easiest thing to do is shove a heap of them on the marketplace and hope they sell so we can get back some of the lindens we've spent. Oh, the creator hates resellers and really meant for their items be traded? Please, who is going to spend all their time in SL sitting in groups hoping that someone wants to trade for that common item that everyone has 10 of already. List it on the marketplace and forget it, but do the right thing and put it in the correct category.

Anyway, one thing I certainly agree with the OP on is gacha creators who use those despicable delete on rez scripts. You are going to destroy items your customers have bought and paid for because you assume they are thieves? Well, not only is your malicious little script ineffective against theft, you can be sure I won't be shopping at your store again, and I'll be telling all my friends to avoid your business as well. The worst example of gacha creator paranoia I have seen was a no copy / no mod / no transfer bodysuit with a delete on rez script. That person must have really hated their customers.

 

[Callum Meriman]

An interesting fly-in-the-ointment for SL gatcha is that the prizes can be converted into real USD currency.

 

[Klytyna]

15 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

Those items did, in fact, offer upgrades to users who were willing to buy the boxes in order to try to get the items.

But STO lootboxes were also fairly common random loot drops in-game, it was the KEYS to open them that were most often bought.

Even the "rare hard to find discontinued loot boxes from previous seasons" were not THAT pricey on the Exchange, it was the contents... Like the Elachi dreadnaught...

And there was no actual way to get the trade value OUT of STO, for those rare contents.
 

[Majestic Kohime]

On 07/07/2018 at 11:52 PM, Chic Aeon said:

Gachas are gambling IN SOME SENSE, but they cannot be equated with a slot machine. Each time you play the gacha you GET an ITEM. The item is shown in the gacha key (so not even like a grab bag). If a gacha machine has 12 cars of different colors and you don't care what color car you get, then you pay 50- 75 lindens or whatever for a RANDOM COLOR of car. You DO get something. Not the same as a slot machine or even a sploader.

 

Thats simply totally WRONG!!!

A sploder always paid you back, you win or lose less thats ALL, same as a gatcha you get somthing back as you said

I even scripted a sploder that was a skill game. a REAL SKILL GAME, not random and LL flagged me after the 2014 TOS. And arent allowing ME TO SELL A REAL SKILL GAME????

Explanations? there are NONE just laws, tos that sometimes arent logic

 

They want to destroy the job of people like me to give the monopoly of the gambling to some people? Ok at least mark it in TOS that will stop this hypocrisy!

 

Also notice the timing of the gatchas trend: they just came after the 2014 TOS change on skill games. Before that gatcha existed but werent popular at all.

Regarding who owns the big gatcha events that explains EVERYTHING

 

LL in 2014: "oh crap we allowed few big creators and owner of gambling machines to cheat people on a massive scale"

                     " ***** lets change TOS to justify their ban"

                     " ok lets give monopoly to people we know"

                     "***** we are LOSING MONEY"

 Smart marketing guy  from SL (irony) suggestion: "look at the success of looting in CSGO and al those trash games, people pay 2-200 dollars for a simple texture!, they are stoupid!!!"

                     " oh yeah lets promote GATCHAS in SL!!""

Show must go on!!!

Edited July 11, 2018 by Majestic Kohime

[Theresa Tennyson]

32 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Also notice the timing of the gatchas trend: they just came after the 2014 TOS change on skill games. Before that gatcha existed but werent popular at all.

The Arcade gacha event was the thing that really started the trend and it began in 2012. I remember Hamstermania well...

[Majestic Kohime]

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The Arcade gacha event was the thing that really started the trend and it began in 2012. I remember Hamstermania well...

And it was a not known at all. Not important.

 

Back in the past the most successful shop events were:

- the HUNTs, and i will remind you that the HUNTs were a clever way to promote creators since the prizes were free. Hunts were very clever because people that werent PAYING in SL could try things and become tempted in buying something, nothing compared to a greasy gatcha event that attract only gatcha ressellers (oh thats a new status in Sl: what are you doing in SL? iam a gtacha resseller! i won 30k today becouse i resell! ) and super customers that can afford to spend many K in a single outfit no copy

- top models events (free and entertaining)

 

top model events and hunts were entertaining for people. I cant see any entertainment in paying a gatcha machine. notice that HUNT and model events werealso SL specific. Gatchas? this is not a concept linked to SL, random payant boxes simply invaded all video games the past few years and already have many issues due to abuses. And it wont stop because the abuses are real.

Oh *****, i forgot to mention that there are very less (they mostly disapeared) top model events since we switched to a mesh head/body system that turned us all clones.

- Then came the "payant hunts "... no comment.. just LOL

- Then "gatchas" received a very HUGE marketing during 2014. Thats clearly not a coincidence.

People used to go in public sims and were playing "skill games" or sploder and gatchas were just details. de-tails. That was the past, the Sl we all knew

And, in 2018 the only big events are payant ones, mostly.

Common do i really need to describe more the evidence?

You can also see the chronological difference on the marketplace: before the no copy/ transfert items on MP/XSTREET were breedables , not gatchas, no one ever cared about those

The breedable buisness has also been highly damaged because, here again LL promised things and they never happened: the pathfinding was suposed to provide new generations of breedables but LL never fixed it, nowadays pathfinding is blocked in most of the regions.

As scripter i invested tons of hours and discussed even with wiki contributors, for the pathfinding, all wasted time since LL stopped to fix its issues.

So you dont get much breedables nowadays. Few. far less success than before. And nothing new. It didnt evolve.

Nowadays the Mp is constantly spammed by gatchas uploads, so much that the biggest SL customers that use the "most recent" sort button cant even find anythign since there are something like 300 new gatchas uploaded daily or more

 

 

 

Notice that a new kind of event has been added recently: fundrisings to support "one rl person". ok i participated in the SL fundrising event to help japan tsunami victims in 2011, at this time we were sure about the event. that was different, dont you think...??? fundrising to help one person in real life??? what is that??? oh yeah probably people that are inspired by youtube, tipee and all those fundrising begging events all over the net)

And, apparently some .. problems are happening... do i really need to describe those new "rl-sl" fundrisings problems?? You probably have heard of them, no?

 

 

Seriously can we go back to SL  basics? Or will we keep on going into the wall.

 

THe OP is right when he mentions "the necessity to share the odds", but you know pretty well that telling people that they will get 0.06% chances to receive this ULTARARE will result in less milking and probably a massive loss in gatcha customers (it happened in CSGO when they shared the odds).

sharing odds means not scamming people. And also having constant odds would avoid other kind of scams... aehm...

So yeah, every SL  recent (the past 4 years )update changed SL drasticly , and resulted in this 2018 status where "paying a gatcha" is the last entertainment in SL. Should rather think asap about a plan B, its not like other kind of events already existed in SL... isnt it...

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Majestic Kohime