gacha LL Policy for Gacha Games is a need

[Drake1 Nightfire]

59 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

And yet the skill games finally ended by beeing regulated, after 11 years of SL existence. So we are allowed to create or own skill games in 2018 and this after buying a license to LL, yet all of this because we "gamble" with some virtual currency that has absolutly no value. What a mess!

Skill games have not ended, they have been moved to sims that are allowed to have them. This is due to US laws about online gambling, which are very specific. 

1 hour ago, Majestic Kohime said:

isnt it in total contradiction with your "arguments"? anyway gadget PORTAL explained everything

Pretty sure @DakotaLinden explained things better. 

2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

Dude you are not getting it, real money was used. As A had to use real money to buy the 10000. Just cause it passed hands, does not mean that real money wasn't used.

Can you please try and comprehend what is actually being said.. The person who bought the gatcha did NOT use their RL money to buy it. The person buying said item is theonly one that matters. Online Gambling is actually regulated and very specific. 

2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

That being said, you have a CHANCE to get an object from a Gacha machine. By that definition, its called Gaming.

Wrong, you will ALWAYS get an item from a gatcha machine and they all have the same value. They all cost what the machine is set to charge. Each and every item in the gatcha has the same cost. You have a chance to get an arbitrary defined "rare"' item. If said rare item isnt what you want, is it still rare? 

2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

You are basically stating that by your logic, that once it passes hands, that its not considered actual currency.

Newsflash, LL doesn't consider the Linden Dollar as currency either. I said the person who bought the gatcha didnt put RL money into SL.. Please learn to understand what is being typed. 

2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

Japan and China, have actually been trying to get Gacha into gaming laws. As it does constitute gambling.

To them.. 

2 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

At a slot machine, or even a lottery ticket, you know what the grand prize is, and what other cash prizes you are winning. So by your definition, would that also be not gambling. I am sorry, but at the end of the day. You are taking the chance, to slowly chip away at your money. To get the JACKPOT, and there is a chance that you will win the smaller prizes. That in my eyes, is gambling.

 

Slot machines and lottery tickets can also give nothing as a prize, which is why that is gambling. You will never lose at a gatcha machine.. There is no JACKPOT in a gatcha machine. Just because a merchant says its rare, doesn't mean it is. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

15 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Skill games have not ended, they have been moved to sims that are allowed to have them. This is due to US laws about online gambling, which are very specific. 

Pretty sure @DakotaLinden explained things better. 

Can you please try and comprehend what is actually being said.. The person who bought the gatcha did NOT use their RL money to buy it. The person buying said item is theonly one that matters. Online Gambling is actually regulated and very specific. 

Wrong, you will ALWAYS get an item from a gatcha machine and they all have the same value. They all cost what the machine is set to charge. Each and every item in the gatcha has the same cost. You have a chance to get an arbitrary defined "rare"' item. If said rare item isnt what you want, is it still rare? 

Newsflash, LL doesn't consider the Linden Dollar as currency either. I said the person who bought the gatcha didnt put RL money into SL.. Please learn to understand what is being typed. 

To them.. 

Slot machines and lottery tickets can also give nothing as a prize, which is why that is gambling. You will never lose at a gatcha machine.. There is no JACKPOT in a gatcha machine. Just because a merchant says its rare, doesn't mean it is. 

Dude you are still gambling, just cause you win or don't win. Does not make it any difference, the big thing that makes Gacha considered part of Gaming. Is the Chance factor, there is a chance you could have a common or a rare. But what exactly are the odds, and how many times will you get the rare? Also newsflash, RL money was still in. That being said, you seem to forget that there is an RL component, someone had to invest RL dollars to pay that person, so they could go waste their money away on Gacha. You clearly cannot comprehend that part.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

33 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Newsflash, LL doesn't consider the Linden Dollar as currency either. I said the person who bought the gatcha didnt put RL money into SL.. Please learn to understand what is being typed. 

If this was all valueless fun money then there wouldn't have been any requirement for LL to comply with US gambling legislation. You can't argue it both ways.

[Theresa Tennyson]

26 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

Dude you are still gambling, just cause you win or don't win. Does not make it any difference, the big thing that makes Gacha considered part of Gaming. Is the Chance factor, there is a chance you could have a common or a rare. But what exactly are the odds, and how many times will you get the rare? Also newsflash, RL money was still in. That being said, you seem to forget that there is an RL component, someone had to invest RL dollars to pay that person, so they could go waste their money away on Gacha. You clearly cannot comprehend that part.

 

There are those who will say that any money spent in a virtual environment like Second Life is wasted.

Gacha is interesting because the line between "gambling" and "not gambling" can be drawn right through the middle of it. Our whole idea of gacha, including its name, comes from Japan where it's huge in real life and has been for many years. The government of Japan regulates certain aspects of it now - i.e. you can't offer special prizes for certain combinations of other items (although a prize for a specific number of pulls is allowed) and you can't set up a fixed money exchange, but the basic process as we see it in Second Life is very legal there. On that level, as many have pointed out, it's the same as buying baseball cards in a packet. Indeed, people have paid thousands of dollars for cheese puffs of unusual shapes - does that mean buying a bag of cheese puffs is gambling?

https://www.thedrum.com/news/2018/07/11/cheetos-asks-what-shapes-you-see-your-cheesy-snacks-contest

Edited July 12, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[LittleMe Jewell]

Everyone can argue until they run out of breath, but all that matters is what LL's lawyers tell them and thus what rules they make or don't make based on that info -- unless/until it ends up in the courts. 

Nobody gives a darn what our opinions are.

 

[Majestic Kohime]

1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Everyone can argue until they run out of breath, but all that matters is what LL's lawyers tell them and thus what rules they make or don't make based on that info -- unless/until it ends up in the courts. 

Nobody gives a darn what our opinions are.

 

Its not AN OPINION to highlight possibilities of scams that lead to a waste of RL money especially when randomly opening cases isnt monitored at all. (or using gatchas , in SL). a "gatcha policy" says the title is an attempt to ask LL to try to monitor those more efficiently. It just means monitoring a bit to avoid scams.

Probbabnly most of the gatcha people are honnest but a little part might trick and scam, and that is the main issue, ofc without policy they can continue to abuse.

Just in case you didnt notice there are profesional scammers around the net (youtube, video games..) and Sl has their own  scammers, aswell, that are also ruining the community

Laws change mainly due to abuses on massive scales. Especially on the internet where concepts are new and people naive.

Read the article i shared concerning valve/steam and skin gambling .. Honnestly do you think that people that gambled their skins on such wesbites lost only something like10$?? I met someone that lost a total of 35000$ beeing addicted to CSGO gambling skin websites.. the amounts can be giant.

Also what is a forum if we cant write our opinions??? Do you mean that you "dont give a darn" then we shouldnt write them?

......

 

not reading messages is still an option, you knw

Edited July 12, 2018 by Majestic Kohime

[Sammy Huntsman]

46 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Its not AN OPINION to highlight possibilities of scams that lead to a waste of RL money especially when randomly opening cases isnt monitored at all. (or using gatchas , in SL). a "gatcha policy" says the title is an attempt to ask LL to try to monitor those more efficiently. It just means monitoring a bit to avoid scams.

Probbabnly most of the gatcha people are honnest but a little part might trick and scam, and that is the main issue, ofc without policy they can continue to abuse.

Just in case you didnt notice there are profesional scammers around the net (youtube, video games..) and Sl has their own  scammers, aswell, that are also ruining the community

Laws change mainly due to abuses on massive scales. Especially on the internet where concepts are new and people naive.

Read the article i shared concerning valve/steam and skin gambling .. Honnestly do you think that people that gambled their skins on such wesbites lost only something like10$?? I met someone that lost a total of 35000$ beeing addicted to CSGO gambling skin websites.. the amounts can be giant.

Also what is a forum if we cant write our opinions??? Do you mean that you "dont give a darn" then we shouldnt write them?

......

 

not reading messages is still an option, you knw

I remember hearing about it happening with a YouTuber and a CSGO skin place. TheSyndicateProject got in huge ***** for that, it made mainstream media. But yes scams happen, anywhere. IE I saw a post on FB, that my friend shared. Which practically stated, that after 106 pulls. He got all Commons and no Rares. That is the kinda scam, that you are talking about right? The worst part, instead of trying to rectify it. The owner practically just attacked him, told him to get a life and *****. Yet he was being really polite.

[MoiraKathleen]

I don't think that the policies outlined in the original post are needed.  In my mind, the base value of the item is the amount per pull.  That the community later assigns various amounts of lindens to specific items in the aftermarket is how markets work.  I also think that a creator should be free to decide on their own about offering copy versions, whether they 'retire' items or make them available for sale later, whether they offer full sets for sell.  Events, of course, can have their own guidelines and creators can chose whether to apply or not apply to a specific event.

I think one is more likely to be scammed from buying something questionable (empty box scams, etc) on the market place than by playing a gacha machine.  Whenever I have played a gacha, I have always received one of the items listed on the key. 

As to quality, that varies the same as with buying anything in SL that others have created.  My take on it for gachas is if it's less than 100 lindens, and it turns out I don't like it, it's not a great loss.  If a gacha machine was 100 linden or more per pull, I would not even play it.  I play very few gacha machines, mostly because I don't like to play if more than 50 lindens per pull, and then I only play if I've looked over the key and know that I would be OK with the prize, no matter which one I get.  If it's something where you need to get multiple items in order to have something useful at all (like clothing items where the outfit is in multiple pieces) than I pass on those as well. 

In terms of a waste of RL money, I don't see gachas as any more wasteful than buying items from the marketplace or from in-world vendors.  I'm sure people who don't understand SL could make an argument that all of SL is a waste of RL money (you paid how much to buy 'virtual land'? and then you pay how much each month to keep it?).  Just like any hobby or entertainment, there are people who will not be able to set healthy limits for themselves, and policies and regulations are not going to be able to protect everyone from themselves.  (This doesn't mean that I'm against policies and regulations in general).

[LittleMe Jewell]

55 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Its not AN OPINION to highlight possibilities of scams that lead to a waste of RL money especially when randomly opening cases isnt monitored at all. (or using gatchas , in SL). a "gatcha policy" says the title is an attempt to ask LL to try to monitor those more efficiently. It just means monitoring a bit to avoid scams.

Probbabnly most of the gatcha people are honnest but a little part might trick and scam, and that is the main issue, ofc without policy they can continue to abuse.

Just in case you didnt notice there are profesional scammers around the net (youtube, video games..) and Sl has their own  scammers, aswell, that are also ruining the community

Laws change mainly due to abuses on massive scales. Especially on the internet where concepts are new and people naive.

Read the article i shared concerning valve/steam and skin gambling .. Honnestly do you think that people that gambled their skins on such wesbites lost only something like10$?? I met someone that lost a total of 35000$ beeing addicted to CSGO gambling skin websites.. the amounts can be giant.

Also what is a forum if we cant write our opinions??? Do you mean that you "dont give a darn" then we shouldnt write them?

......

 

not reading messages is still an option, you knw

Touchy much?

 

The majority of the latter part of this thread is really nothing more than a bunch of folks spouting "their opinion" on the law and arguing back and forth on what is and is not legal.  My comments apply to that.  

As to the "nobody cares about our options" - that means LL and I can pretty much guarantee that they don't care about our opinions on what is and is not legal.  They have their own lawyers for that.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Its not AN OPINION to highlight possibilities of scams that leads to a waste of RL money especially when randomly opening cases isnt monitored at all. (or using gatchas , in SL)

Laws changes mainly due to abuses on massive scales. Especially on the internet where concepts are new.

... and until LL Legal advise them otherwise ... NOTHING CHANGES.

[Majestic Kohime]

27 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

... and until LL Legal advise them otherwise ... NOTHING CHANGES.

 at least the gatcha customer knows that "nothing is planned" and plays at their own risks.

 

Good luck have fun.

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Majestic Kohime

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, halebore Aeon said:

I remember hearing about it happening with a YouTuber and a CSGO skin place. TheSyndicateProject got in huge ***** for that, it made mainstream media. But yes scams happen, anywhere. IE I saw a post on FB, that my friend shared. Which practically stated, that after 106 pulls. He got all Commons and no Rares. That is the kinda scam, that you are talking about right? The worst part, instead of trying to rectify it. The owner practically just attacked him, told him to get a life and *****. Yet he was being really polite.

That's simply not understanding how the laws of probability work. If there's a 5% chance of something happening that doesn't mean that it has to happen five times in 100 tries; there's a 5% chance on every pull and it would be entirely within bounds of reason to get 0 or to get 10 or more out of 100.

[Parhelion Palou]

6 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

Dude you are still gambling, just cause you win or don't win. Does not make it any difference, the big thing that makes Gacha considered part of Gaming. Is the Chance factor, there is a chance you could have a common or a rare. But what exactly are the odds, and how many times will you get the rare? Also newsflash, RL money was still in. That being said, you seem to forget that there is an RL component, someone had to invest RL dollars to pay that person, so they could go waste their money away on Gacha. You clearly cannot comprehend that part.

 

It's fun answering things when I'm really tired ... Say I'd be happy with anything that's in a specific gacha machine. I put in my Lindens, get something out ... I've won. There's no way I can lose. Is it gambling?

I rarely bother with gachas, but most of the times I've used a gacha machine I've wanted the commons and not the rare. I want stuff to put in a house, not a house. I've got tons of those. In that case if I get the rare I'll delete it rather than clog up my inventory. That rare had no value to me. The true value is what it's worth to the person using the machine. Labeling something 'rare' doesn't change its true value. If you disagree, I've got some rare cubes I'll sell for a reasonable price.

Now, for the "RL dollars": Lindens have no value in the real world. They only have value in Second Life. You can't get Lindens out of SL. If you could you couldn't use them for anything. A Linden is basically a token used for barter within SL. Do you have to report your Lindens to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) so you can be taxed on them? Funny, the IRS doesn't think they're money. (If necessary, Linden Lab could shut down the RL money argument by ending the conversion of Lindens to dollars. That's an interesting thought.)

In summary: Nothing I typed above matters, because @LittleMe Jewell and others are right. Unless LL's lawyers decide there's a problem with gachas there will be no rules, regulations, covenants, or finger paintings created by Linden Lab with respect to gachas.

I suggest moving on to some other subject. How about calling for speed limits on mainland roads? There's a terrible lack of regulation there.

[Paul Hexem]

40 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

Now, for the "RL dollars": Lindens have no value in the real world. They only have value in Second Life. You can't get Lindens out of SL. If you could you couldn't use them for anything. A Linden is basically a token used for barter within SL. Do you have to report your Lindens to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) so you can be taxed on them? Funny, the IRS doesn't think they're money. (If necessary, Linden Lab could shut down the RL money argument by ending the conversion of Lindens to dollars. That's an interesting thought.)

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Required_Tax_Documentation_FAQ

Quote

Why do I need to submit tax-related documentation to Linden Lab?

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) requires Linden Lab to collect and retain tax forms from users who reach certain L$ sale transaction volumes and/or amounts.

Tell me again about no value?

[Elvina Ewing]

20 hours ago, Fionalein said:

To be fair some gachas offer "buy the whole set no trans" options. Something I really like and use (and resellers of course frown upon).

but that defeats the whole purpose of a gacha, does it not? Why would anybody play your gacha machine at all if they can simply buy same item? or are we talking about exorbitant prices for this "buy the whole set no trans" option?

5 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

I rarely bother with gachas, but most of the times I've used a gacha machine I've wanted the commons and not the rare. I want stuff to put in a house, not a house. I've got tons of those. In that case if I get the rare I'll delete it rather than clog up my inventory. That rare had no value to me. The true value is what it's worth to the person using the machine. Labeling something 'rare' doesn't change its true value. If you disagree, I've got some rare cubes I'll sell for a reasonable price.

the true value is what somebody wants to pay for it. The more of those said somebodies, the bigger is the possibility to resell it for a bigger value. If you can find somebody who wants to pay your reasonable price for your rare cubes, sure you can sell them. The fact that you don't want to bother with reselling it and at least getting your money back doesn't automatically mean a certain item has no value to other somebody.

RL example: there are sometimes quizzes on TV where you can win a valued prize. For example, a new shiney car. Or a vacation. Every time i watch these i wonder what would i have done if i happened to win in such a quiz. I don't even have a drivers license. A car has no value to me. I can't use it, i don't need it, i have even no place to store it. Does it mean the said shiney car have no value? I am sure a lot of people would disagree.

[Fionalein]

Just now, Elvina Ewing said:

but that defeats the whole purpose of a gacha, does it not? Why would anybody play your gacha machine at all if they can simply buy same item? or are we talking about exorbitant prices for this "buy the whole set no trans" option?

Accpetable ones, let's say the gacha goes for 75 a draw and the full item range goes for 1500 to 5000. That is pretty high but if I really want the whole set in copy because I'd like to decorate my place with it i gladly pay the full price as collecting a full set would be even more expensive and no one says I get enough copies of the commons to build what I wanted (fences, bar chairs, beer glasses...). If you just need some decorative items but not the full set playing it is still an option (also with some sets the buy all option is time limited - like the pocketgacha HUD's pay for all offers).

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Elvina Ewing said:

but that defeats the whole purpose of a gacha, does it not? Why would anybody play your gacha machine at all if they can simply buy same item? or are we talking about exorbitant prices for this "buy the whole set no trans" option?

the true value is what somebody wants to pay for it. The more of those said somebodies, the bigger is the possibility to resell it for a bigger value. If you can find somebody who wants to pay your reasonable price for your rare cubes, sure you can sell them. The fact that you don't want to bother with reselling it and at least getting your money back doesn't automatically mean a certain item has no value to other somebody.

RL example: there are sometimes quizzes on TV where you can win a valued prize. For example, a new shiney car. Or a vacation. Every time i watch these i wonder what would i have done if i happened to win in such a quiz. I don't even have a drivers license. A car has no value to me. I can't use it, i don't need it, i have even no place to store it. Does it mean the said shiney car have no value? I am sure a lot of people would disagree.

Years ago, I bought a slide projector - brand new - for a very low price. This was because it was an older model that used an unusual custom slide tray and it didn't really catch on in the market so it was out of production. In other words, it was rare. Still, I think I paid $30-$40 for it, and it worked well enough with the one slide tray it came with.

Then, years later, I was helping at a church rummage sale. Lo and behold, there were slide trays for that slide projector! I bought them instantly. However, I'm completely sure I paid a single-digit amount for them, and the person "selling" them had given them to the church for free. Rare? Yes. Valuable? Not really...

[Charlotte Bartlett]

On 7/13/2018 at 1:12 AM, Gadget Portal said:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Required_Tax_Documentation_FAQ

Tell me again about no value?

We pay tax on the USD only as that is realized revenue.  For Linden Dollars (tokens) left on the account they have not yet realized a value so are not taxable until the point of USD conversion.   Now once you do a LINDEX transaction and they sit as USD in your account - you have to declare them even if you don't "process credit" to exit them from the platform.   

It's why we pay for our sims in USD too versus Linden Dollars, as LL require real currency to pay for our tier.  It's how we use Tier as a deductible (plus fees etc for LINDEX) in addition.

Obviously all countries differ on tax law, so this assumes US residency above.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Charlotte Bartlett

[ellestones]

3 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

We pay tax on the USD only as that is realized revenue.  For Linden Dollars (tokens) left on the account they have not yet realized a value so are not taxable until the point of USD conversion.

yes. The FAQ link explains this

[Paul Hexem]

7 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

We pay tax on the USD only as that is realized revenue.  For Linden Dollars (tokens) left on the account they have not yet realized a value so are not taxable until the point of USD conversion.   Now once you do a LINDEX transaction and they sit as USD in your account - you have to declare them even if you don't "process credit" to exit them from the platform.   

It's why we pay for our sims in USD too versus Linden Dollars, as LL require real currency to pay for our tier.  It's how we use Tier as a deductible (plus fees etc for LINDEX) in addition.

Obviously all countries differ on tax law, so this assumes US residency above.

 

 

The point is, if L$ were valueless, tax law would never come up at all.

I have to file taxes due to the L$ I get in SL, even though I rarely cash out.

I don't have to file taxes for my SWTOR credits or WOW gold. Those are valueless play currencies. 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

13 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

The point is, if L$ were valueless, tax law would never come up at all.

I have to file taxes due to the L$ I get in SL, even though I rarely cash out.

I don't have to file taxes for my SWTOR credits or WOW gold. Those are valueless play currencies. 

I am not disagreeing, just that you are paying tax on the realized currency (USD) not the L$s.

[NightRavenChick]

Getting back to the gachas . . . It just seems such a wide spread "problem" like some events where they offer the gacha items at one price and the fatpack (no trans, but copy/mod for example) at another HUGE price for the fatpack and then that creator sticks a competition behind it where you have to have the set, then take a photo in order to "win" a chance to join their blogging team/or have access to it for a limited amount of time makes it feel like you have to first buy your way in. Which don't get me wrong "IF" you have that large amount of money go for it, but that calls out desperate to me. 

Yes, it's the same as buying anything then making the same competition out of that, but with "some" creators charging huge prices for things like this, it makes it unfair to those who would want to join in and can't cause they have a limited and tight budget and have to hope for places which have that particular item/build/backdrop in order to be able to join in.

The gacha phenomenon just seems to be so wide spread now, like many have said above, who wants to buy that common that everyone has? Been there on that and even still trying to sell some off from years ago so I just end up deleting them. There has to be some fair way that this can be regulated?

Gacha is like Marmite . . either you love it or you hate it. I like looking through MP for some sweet deals (yeah I agree there should be a gacha section on MP),  but there are some pretty insane prices out there for items.

I know am going to get some negative feedback on this, but am getting sick n tired of seeing some creators exploiting players though gachas, especially with gachas like road/fence pieces. I've said my piece.

Edited July 17, 2018 by NightRavenChick

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

Quote

1. Gachas must be like that.

2. Gachas must be like this.

...

13. Gachas can't be like thus.

Quote

 

 after spending 8-10 hours to get in

try it two days later..

 

Ah, the good old days of standing in line to gain access to state-regulated commodities. Don't forget to propose to have Linden Lab rebranded to Politburo.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[OxfordLennox]

On 20.07.2018 at 9:28 AM, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

  Quote

 

  On 06.07.2018 at 10:19 AM, OxfordLennox said:

 after spending 8-10 hours to get in

try it two days later..

I admire how people take it so easy. I mention about 100s of people not just me.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:47 PM, OxfordLennox said:

  On 7/20/2018 at 8:28 AM, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

  Quote

  On 7/6/2018 at 9:19 AM, OxfordLennox said:

 after spending 8-10 hours to get in

try it two days later..

I did not say "try it two days later." Those weren't my words.