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Asking Mesh friend is racist or just negative discrimination?


Derekmate
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It's not racism, and comparing it to such or claiming it's such takes so much away from actual racism  (I am of the belief that this word should be only used when it actually applies). Mesh avs are not a race, can't even be a race. I suppose if you wanted to give a term, perhaps classist, mesh avs could be a class...definitely *not a race in and of themselves. 

As for that kind of behavior....meh. I don't always like it, but then, I don't have to. I don't really give a rat's left nut what others' preferences are, as far as who they desire to be around. I see people make similar comments all the dang time, or at least infer them, things that have to do with other ways in which we classify/judge/label people. There are far bigger fish to fry in that realm, I'm afraid, for me to give two *****s if someone wants to be shallow in  virtual world.  Some of the people that post here on the forums that I have come to enjoy reading from, and even discussing with, come across shallow sometimes too. So what? So, they're shallow in some aspects...I doubt there are many adults around that *aren't at some point or another. 

I don't hang around folks that prefer a certain kind of behavior and dress (and it has nothing to do with mesh, ftr), I judge them (sometimes hella harshly) and wouldn't want to be their friend either. Am I shallow for that? Maybe by some definitions I am. And to that I say...umm, okie dokie artichokie, so I'm shallow. It's really no skin off my nose if people think some of my preferences are actually shallow. I have them for good reason, and I don't expect anyone else to agree with my reasoning, or, my preferences either for that matter. 

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12 hours ago, Derekmate said:

I don't want to copy here nothing but you all read it. People asking for friend but only if you are mesh. This maybe not full racist to you, but just  sub the word mesh to an ethnicity or religion. 

This is getting to be the like word 'fascist' - 'racism' does not mean 'anything we don't like'. It has a specific meaning.

Mesh or not mesh is not a 'morphological grouping of unrelated real world ethnic groups' commonly viewed as a 'race' under the pretext of an incorrect understanding of biology...

Racism refers to a specific kind of discrimination. It is not a broad brush for anything unpleasant.

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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23 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

This is getting to be the like word 'fascist' - 'racism' does not mean 'anything we don't like'. It has a specific meaning.

Mesh or not mesh is not a 'morphological grouping of unrelated real world ethnic groups' commonly viewed as a 'race' under the pretext of an incorrect understanding of biology...

Racism refers to a specific kind of discrimination. It is not a broad brush for anything unpleasant.

Next, you’ll try to convince me Donald Trump isn’t a Racist and a Fascist!

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4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Next, you’ll try to convince me Donald Trump isn’t a Racist and a Fascist!

I'd actually argue he is. I can refer to his speeches and compare them to Adolf's and find too many similarities in tone, message, and even gesticulation... At least a racist. Fascist is an extremely particular term... and I'm not sold on him being this. He is too 'nepotism and loyalty' oriented. One of his big failings... his failure to get his agenda through that is... is that he lacks a coherent ideology. His sense of 'me'-ism weakens his ability to be an actual fascist.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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I am new to SL yet I am mesh but I have no issues with someone being non mesh to me it makes no difference what the avi looks like i have seen already there are issues with mesh disapearing when you tp to clubs especially if it lags sometimes I go and people will stop in mid convo just to tell me they can not see my mesh body it gets annoying one time I was out dancing at a club felt they were more focused on seeing my avi than talking to me because the alpha had messed up so I actually took off part of my mesh and made my entire body invisible for the rest of the event to see what others would say then 

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First, I'm not going to address the blatant misuse of the word "Racism", people above have already explained that far more eloquently than I ever could. But despite the incorrect use of the word I do grok what the OP means.

I will comment on the superficiality of this "you must be a cute mesh avatar or don't bother talking to me" thing that I happening in so many shallow people's profiles.

Just as the profile statement "I don't like drama" normally points to a person who swims in drama, those disclaimers "you must be in a cute mesh avatar or don't bother talking to me" clearly show an ugly minded person who could never be a good, reliable friend.

A good friend, one whom you don't regret on your FL, one whom you enjoy IMing, isn't hung up on the perfection of a person's looks. Like us, they look to the heart. They look to the goodness behind the pixels, and in doing so they recognise someone who is worthy of friendship.

People hung up on pretty pixels are not just shallow, they miss out on so many wonderful friends.

 

 

Edited by Callum Meriman
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3 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I'd actually argue he is. I can refer to his speeches and compare them to Adolf's and find too many similarities in tone, message, and even gesticulation... At least a racist. Fascist is an extremely particular term... and I'm not sold on him being this. He is too 'nepotism and loyalty' oriented. One of his big failings... his failure to get his agenda through that is... is that he lacks a coherent ideology. His sense of 'me'-ism weakens his ability to be an actual fascist.

 

His 'me'-ism corresponds closely to the cult of personality aspects of fascism. Similarly 'nepotism and loyalty' whilst not defining aren't incompatible with fascism.

The differences lies much with their approach to the role of the state in solving problems. Mussolini would boast 75% of italian businesses were run by the state, Trump might be taking some steps in that direction with for example his recent idea of trade barriers, but whilst he might be moving in that direction the USA is a long way to the opposite end of the scale on that particular issue.

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For me it's not a question of expense -- I make plenty from my scripting and things my alts have made and a mesh body doesn't seem to me a major expense (particularly after I convert the price to cups of decent coffee, which is my usual comparison).   

However, I've spent the last 10 years, on and off, tweaking my system shape and experimenting with various skins to get things how I want them, and I'm not going to junk that in favour of a mesh body that I'm going to have to spend ages setting up with new outfits.     I have neither the time nor the inclination to do that.

 

 

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Question for everyone who thinks of "racism" as only pertaining to race: Does this mean that bigotry towards Hispanic people isn't racism? "Hispanic" is technically an ethnic designation and Spanish ethnicity is a classed as "Caucasian". Berbers, Moors, Somalis, Asian Indians, and parts of central Asia were also classed as "Caucasian", just to give an idea of how messy it is to try to make such a distinction based on the colour of someone's skin.

Maybe it's not this way in the U.S., but in some parts of the world the word "racism" is used colloquially to include bigotry based on ethnicity too. Part of that's the history of the word "race" itself, part of it's histories of animosity between neighbouring peoples, and part of it's because "ethnicism" isn't in common usage, and besides, it means something else. :) The word "racism" is also used in that sense formally, in the UN's International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD).

(Going to try chucking ICERD's definition in here with spoiler tags, because the surrounding discussion is useful for translating the legalese. Fingers crossed it works.)

<spoiler>

Definition of "racial discrimination"

Main articles: Racism and Discrimination

Article 1 of the Convention defines "racial discrimination" as:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[21]

Distinctions made on the basis of citizenship (that is, between citizens and non-citizens) are specifically excluded from the definition, as are positive discrimination policies and other measures taken to redress imbalances and promote equality.[22]

This definition does not distinguish between discrimination based on ethnicity and discrimination based on race, in part because the distinction between the ethnicity and race remains debatable among anthropologists.[23] The inclusion of descent specifically covers discrimination on the basis of caste and other forms of inherited status.[24]

Discrimination need not be strictly based on race or ethnicity for the Convention to apply. Rather, whether a particular action or policy discriminates is judged by its effects.[25]

In seeking to determine whether an action has an effect contrary to the Convention, it will look to see whether that action has an unjustifiable disparate impact upon a group distinguished by race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.[25]

The question of whether an individual belongs to a particular racial group is to be decided, in the absence of justification to the contrary, by self-identification.[26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_on_the_Elimination_of_All_Forms_of_Racial_Discrimination#Definition_of_"racial_discrimination"</spoiler>

 

Edited by Bitsy Buccaneer
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The point of confusion regarding 'hispanic' is in still thinking 'race' is a biological classification. I see this all the time used as a way to JUSTIFY discriminating against me and people like me. "You're not a race, hispanic is not a race" - by the very people who then lump us into a category and do things like murder us in the grape fields, rape our mothers working in domestic labor, deport those of us who are indigenous to this area because we happened to be outside without a birth certificate on hand (somewhere between 600-1000 US citizens have been deported in the last decade for looking too brown. Cheech Marin's "Born in East LA" movie may have been comedy, but it's motivated by something real - many of my ethnic peers never crossed the border, in the 1840s the border crossed them)...

So yes... because 'race' is NOT actually biological... it is actually a mis-understanding of trying to make 'ethnicity' into 'biology' (that itself is a racist concept born out of the idea that people are inherently this way or that)... so... basically 'racism' and 'ethnocentrism' are two words for a nearly identical concept.

The entire set of genes that 'differ' among the entire Caucasian "race" is less than the difference inside of a single average village in Africa. The people outside of Africa - are generally the descendants of small bands of survivors from scattered groups that left. I once read that they estimate the vast majority of the Americas was the result of 30 people that made it across the Bearing Strait.

- Yet when you just look at people, you won't see this. When you look at people you see 'morphology' - appearance. The LEAST important aspects of our DNA, we have magnified out of proportion over the last 500 years. Read "Stamped from the Beginning" = Ibram X. Kendi for a very good analysis of this process and how it runs both counter to our historic ethnic divides and was no accident, but a direct process to make the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade appear 'normal' to the populations that needed to be 'kept quiet' about it... If plantation owners were going to enslave all those people, they had to make the other people see them as less human... they had to 're-educate' the western world, and 'Race' was the crafted construct to do this. A mere century before 'race' was fabricated, you had things like a whole society of Merchants from Sub-Saharan Africa living in Bristol England and rising into all segments of society in the multiple generations that they lived there.

'Hispanic' is likewise... a product of this... it is the most recent part of the construct... so the flaws within it are more glaring. Once again 'race' has been cast over a broad set of different ethnic groups that have a common former colonizer.

Race IS real. But it is not biological. It is a social construct cast upon people to categorize them and put some above or below others. It has been so ingrained into the structure of modern societies now, and no longer just western ones... that to deny it's existence is to actually perpetuate the harm it was crafted to inflict... but we need to become hyper aware of it, and that it is a construct... so that we can begin to dismantle the injuries it inflicts...

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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I totally get it and I'll admit when I was single I looked for that too. For me, it wasn't about how only they looked etc, I have seen some beautiful system avis.  for me it was 

  1. Common Interests (can we shop together etc?)
  2. SL commitment (are you willing to put a little money into the is world like I have?)
  3. Mesh just looks better (If I'm going to be "with" someone, I want to be turned on, and a system body just doesn't do it for me )

It's a personal choice and I may have missed out  and I guess I will just have to live with that. 

Edited by Heathernorton
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37 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Question for everyone who thinks of "racism" as only pertaining to race: Does this mean that bigotry towards Hispanic people isn't racism?

How about getting past the initial little bit of controversy ... how is the look of a pixel being even remotely considered to have the same value, meaning, worth, importance of a real human being? 

Honestly, for my liking, that's the much bigger insult to the human equivalent.

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As for the notion of 'socializing with only people that have mesh bodies...'

I get it in some sense...

Three ways this would be important:

1. You like to do things like SL dance, take SL screenshots, or other animations / imagery together with others. For this... people need avatars that look good enough to enjoy visually.

2. You're into SL-sex. Again with the visuals... you want something you can enjoy seeing on the screen. Plenty of 'hey baby, sexxy time?' requests that I have ignored because of this. If I don't get turned on by your avatar... what am I there for?

3. You're into SL shopping. There is nothing more frustrating that going shopping with someone with whom you have nothing commercially in common. If I am all googoo for a certain kind of product, and my shopping buddy is bored out of her freaking mind at the things I'm looking over... we won't last.

 

Ain't NONE of that related to race.

That said... I actually do have a 'no-blonds' rule on my 'sex rules' list... SL just has too much blond and it's a turn off for me. Ya'll can decide if that's about race or not all you want. But it is NOT about mesh - that's a separate rule I have on my 'sexxy time' list...

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51 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

How about getting past the initial little bit of controversy ... how is the look of a pixel being even remotely considered to have the same value, meaning, worth, importance of a real human being? 

Honestly, for my liking, that's the much bigger insult to the human equivalent.

I had hoped my post might help move things on by bridging the gap between two positions, or at least providing some basis for understand the more open definition. I'm sorry if you don't see value in it but I do.

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I understand the desire for mesh with regards to an avi that you'll be having an intimate relationship with, especially if you'll be doing the SLex thing.  Hell, the only purpose for actually putting the avs on the pose balls is for the visual aspect.  Otherwise, folks would just IM  ether in proximity or not.

I can only understand the 'mesh for a shopping buddy' thing if we are talking specifically about shopping for things that can only be used on a mesh body or head.  There is still a lot of mesh clothing out there that can be worn by classic and mesh bodies.  

Otherwise, as long as the system av takes care in looking good (which really does mean mesh feet if not wearing pants), I do see a mesh requirement as being shallow, snobbish, whatever you want to call it.  If people want to be that way, then they are entitled to do so.  They just aren't likely the type of person I will want to spend much time with -- and they wouldn't like me anyway because I still use a system head.

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4 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Question for everyone who thinks of "racism" as only pertaining to race:

Seems a very narrow definition -- does anyone actually use it?

For what it's worth, here's the definition the British legal system uses (both in prosecuting discrimination cases and some types of hate crime).  For these purposes, racism is defined as hostility towards people based on their membership (actual or presumed) of a racial group.  A racial group, for English legal purposes, is:

Quote

Racial group - this means any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin. This could include Gypsies and Travellers, refugees, or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of racial group.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-crime-cps-prosecution-policy

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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to be honest, i prefer it when people type "you must be mesh to contact me" in their profile.  it's the same to me as "i hate drama". 

it makes it SO much easier for me to avoid these people.  i generally find the same type of people to be the ones in SL that keep complaining about people not being reliable and lying to them.

 

honestly, i read profiles before messaging people because sometimes there are subtle clues that you may not mesh with that person.  i honestly don't care if someone is mesh/non-mesh.  i don't care if someone is in freebies or in expensive clothes. the only thing i care about is the personality of the person. if someone has nothing but negativity in their profile, it would generally be a miracle for that person to be positive when they talk to you normally.

 

do i find people that only talk to others that are mesh shallow, of course i do.  do i think it's racist, no.  it think it's more of a caste system they have cut out in SL for themselves to make themselves feel better or superior to others.  whatever, it's their SL, i do not need to associate with them. they can live their SL however they want.  it's good in one way if we can confine most of these people to a certain part of SL where i never need to run into them :)  oh well. i can dream :)

 

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I don't think it's shallow at all.  Think of it like real life.  Do you go out with people who look disheveled and unkempt?  If so, then your standards are low.  I wouldn't want to go places with someone who doesn't shave, comb their hair, or dress nicely.  I guess it really depends on the occasion though, but the principle still stands.

There are various ways to get L$, and there's really no excuse for not upgrading your avatar to mesh.  There are plenty of free bodies and heads these days.

 

EDIT:  If we're talking dating or SLex here, well, some of us put a lot of time and effort into our avatars, so i expect others to do the same.

If people are happy with their non-mesh avatars, then it's fine, but they don't have the right to complain about mesh users either, since there's so many alternative ways to get mesh.

TLDR: Stop being lazy and get free mesh heads and bodies.  Use google.

Edited by femhalf
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11 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Seems a very narrow definition -- does anyone actually use it?

I thought at least a couple people in the thread had and I had hoped that I might be able to bridge the gap in definitions, or at least make the different use understandable. Perhaps I'm the one to have misunderstood what they were saying. It certainly seems that I've failed in bridging in gaps. My apologies for trying.

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13 hours ago, femhalf said:

I don't think it's shallow at all.  Think of it like real life.  Do you go out with people who look disheveled and unkempt?  If so, then your standards are low.  I wouldn't want to go places with someone who doesn't shave, comb their hair, or dress nicely.  I guess it really depends on the occasion though, but the principle still stands.

There are non-mesh folks that do take care of themselves and dress themselves with quality clothing, but just don't want a mesh body.  There are many of us that have a mesh body, but don't like the current mesh heads and thus don't want one yet.  So non-mesh does not mean the av is wandering around disheveled.

 

13 hours ago, femhalf said:

TLDR: Stop being lazy and get free mesh heads and bodies.  Use google.

Being non-mesh does not mean the person is lazy either. 

 

13 hours ago, femhalf said:

If people are happy with their non-mesh avatars, then it's fine, but they don't have the right to complain about mesh users either, since there's so many alternative ways to get mesh.

This assumes that everyone wants to get mesh.

I don't think people are complaining about mesh users in general, but about some mesh users thinking that all non-mesh users are inferior to them.

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23 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I can only understand the 'mesh for a shopping buddy' thing if we are talking specifically about shopping for things that can only be used on a mesh body or head.  There is still a lot of mesh clothing out there that can be worn by classic and mesh bodies.

One of my longest terms friends in SL, that I have lost touch with, is/was a Tiny. That is one of those old 'micro animals' - they were made with prims mostly. Rarely sculpty, and only a few mesh were made in the early days of mesh.

Unless I was shopping at builder stores, we really had very little in common in SL. I'd often just hang out on her build platform and chat while she was making plants and gardening stuff.

That lack of common SL interests is why I eventually just drifted off. I tried pretty hard to get her to try even a furry of the animal type she used - so we could do some fashion shopping... but the interest wasn't there.

Now with shopping... sure there is mesh or system clothes they can wear, and clothes I can wear... but the two are not usually the same. And if they can't or won't even buy a mesh body... there's some doubt they'll actually be interested in SL shopping.

As someone up-thread noted... it's about someone looking 'unkempt'. If someone looks like they purposefully don't take care of themselves... it's a bit off putting especially if you're shopping fashion / health / etc. And that carries into SL as well.


- That analogy feel to 'class based' for my liking... but if you take it a step further away it sort of fits. The person refusing to get mesh is showing a visible sign of not maintaining. Maybe they still look good in a system look. Maybe I still look good in the bell bottoms and high pants I had in the 70s (except I was 5... THOSE pants might not fir anymore... :) )... But maybe I'd also just look unkempt... for lack of a better term.

I know the term 'unkempt' is loaded for this... I have edited this post multiple times trying to find a better way to describe this... Hoping my 70s analogy gets it better... 'dated'...
'common interests' really helps for this too...

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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