Should There Be Disincentives for Free Accounts?

[Tari Landar]

[bebejee]

Delete.

Edited December 11, 2017 by bebejee

[Teagan Tobias]

Just a point of fact, I spent a lot more money as a non premium user than I ever have as the premium user that I am today.  My one reason for being premium is to save money, I have a Linden home, that alone sames me lots of money.  And I have been in my Linden Home for 4 years now and I love it.
Just saying.

[ThorinII]

Should there be disincentives for free accounts? I think no.

On the other hand, I think there should be better incentives to go Premium, so that it would be worth it for everyone.

[Paul Hexem]

Even if it were a good idea, it's too late now to do it. On the other hand...

 

1 hour ago, ThorinII said:

Should there be disincentives for free accounts? I think no.

On the other hand, I think there should be better incentives to go Premium, so that it would be worth it for everyone.

This is a much better idea.

[ThorinII]

1 minute ago, Gadget Portal said:

This is a much better idea.

I know right?

Currently, I spend around 40 Euros for SL - to pay the rent for my 1/4 homestead, and to buy stuff. At least, I try to do that regularly.

Sometimes, I just can't though - and that's where  I don't see any incentive to go Premium anymore (I had one with my former account). Here's just a few points:

• A Linden Home? Too bad you're not allowed to deed it to a group. Well, you can, theoretically, but iirc you're not allowed to do so.
• 512 sqm Mainland instead? Well that isn't much for a group either. And as a roleplayer, I want my group to be able to set their home on the land that we're using together.
• A month low on money, because there are some unexpected RL bills that you have to pay? Well as a Free User, worst thing that did happen to me is that I lost my land and had to rent a new parcel when I had the money again. What about Premium? When you're on a monthly or quarterly subscription, your account will be on hold until you're able to pay your subscription fee again.
• The Premium gifts? Oh well, most of them are of little use for me.
• The Premium sandboxes? Hm... Do I need one with own land anyways?
• The stipend? Well... yes it did help a bit, but still there was that regular fee that I had to cough up whether I had the money or not.

So, what is a Premium worth to me? Nothing *I* am ready to pay anymore.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:57 PM, Tari Landar said:

You forgot, and forget, one...HUGE fact. People with non-premium accounts outweigh premium accounts by a massively large amount. It's pretty damn obvious that most griefing would be done by them when they make up the majority of residents. In fact it's pretty much a no brainer and one would have to be an idiot to think anything the opposite. No one has to ask the lindens squat to know this, lol. By and large non-premium, and non-payment info on file residents make up the vast majority of all aspects of sl, all communities, all merchants, all customers, all activities participated in, all land "rented", etc..etc...non-premium/NPIOF residents make up the vast majority of everything.  Your entire sl "living" and business existence relies, heavily, on the very people you put down, constantly......that is, people without premium accounts. You wouldn't have the business you have today without them...NO ONE, including LL, would.

Like I said..stop biting the hand that feeds you, lol. LL learned long ago that it's a bad idea, and I believe they're pretty spot on with that assessment. 

You forgot something, too. It doesn't matter if the bulk of free accounts is way more than the bulk of premium accounts -- that's not the topic.

The topic is which category produces MORE griefers. And the answer is: day-old or free accounts. Not paid accounts. But free accounts. It doesn't matter what percentage of the population they are. There aren't more griefers because there are more of them -- that's silly. There are more griefers from among their population, because of the ability to abuse the accounts with impunity. That's all. Griefing is griefing. It's against the rules. What enables you to do that is a problem. The Lindens tend toward solving griefing with technical rather than social fixes. So they'll have to do this in due course.

Go back and read what I read in my original post. I couldn't think of a good reason to de-incentivize free accounts because -- to repeat myself -- they are in business, they are good citizens, they rent, they create things, and they do this because they live in countries or situations (it's often a wife whose husband doesn't like her running up bills on Second Life, I find) that don't allow them to have the luxury of payment on file. And so it's hard to conceive of a dis-incentive that doesn't ding them. THAT'S WHAT I SAID IF YOU READ MY POST.

And that's why I've always been for free accounts.

But I do think the discussion has to be had and possibly some disincentive dreamt up because griefing is ALSO a huge problem and a loss of business. You're all up on saying how much "my business" relies on free accounts -- free accounts *I* didn't put down -- again, go READ my original post. But I also LOSE BUSINESS from griefers endlessly making day-old free accounts. So THAT has to be looked at too if you have an open mind and really want to solve problems instead of climbing on hobby horses and hating on landlords with that free-floating hatred always available in the lefty class war that is Second Life.

It's not a hand that feeds me, dear. You don't have enough experience in business. It's hand that both feeds me and harms me, so I LOOK AT IT and DEBATE IT, because, you know, it's a free country and I want solutions, not political correctness.

There's another angle one could take, which is -- let's get the Lindens to stop allowing proxies. That's really the problem. You don't need a proxy if you aren't up to mischief. All those free, law-abiding accounts who are good citizens don't use them, you know? Unless they are in, oh, Iran or Saudi Arabia. *But they aren't*. This is a picture pushed by the Lindens, that Iranian freedom-fighters are using proxies in SL, like Tor (another thing I'm very critical of). But that is not the use case. The overwhelming use case is for copybotting, griefing, harassing, stalking, theft, etc. There's a die-hard oldbie and Linden contingent who think proxies are sacred and must never be challenged. But every time I talk to regular people, even some mature techies, they say that's the obvious thing to do, block some of the worst ones. And PS the hash-banning that people say is "impossible" "because Internet" is also successful in other settings even without 100 percent effectiveness, and isn't tried.

When the griefers turn on some big and favored customer of LL's, then they'll act and not before. And in fact, that's why we have even the curbs we do against copybotting, despite previous Lindens in high places no longer with us releasing the viewer into the wild (huge mistake) and allowing reverse-engineering and copying with a snicker -- they were overruled. And thank God for it.

Lindens put in the power to keep open groups with open membership, to promote, say, clubs of a similar passtime, or merchants, or rentals, or socializing, but ADDED the ability to ban individually permanently because groups were harassed by these people constantly begging "to pay their rent" and so on. It took them a good 10 years to get over their hippie syndrome to do this. They'd say "close the group" instead of appreciating the boon of an open society but one under the rule of law.

So soon enough, we'll get features that prevent the mis-use of conference-calling, which is what is particularly pernicious now. You'll be able to turn off the ability of someone to put you in a conference call unless you've consented, as an avatar or group function. 

I watch what the Lindens do, not what they say.... 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, ThorinII said:

Should there be disincentives for free accounts? I think no.

On the other hand, I think there should be better incentives to go Premium, so that it would be worth it for everyone.

I have an idea! Let's have transactions go back 90 days...Oh...

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, ThorinII said:

I know right?

Currently, I spend around 40 Euros for SL - to pay the rent for my 1/4 homestead, and to buy stuff. At least, I try to do that regularly.

Sometimes, I just can't though - and that's where  I don't see any incentive to go Premium anymore (I had one with my former account). Here's just a few points:

• A Linden Home? Too bad you're not allowed to deed it to a group. Well, you can, theoretically, but iirc you're not allowed to do so.
• 512 sqm Mainland instead? Well that isn't much for a group either. And as a roleplayer, I want my group to be able to set their home on the land that we're using together.
• A month low on money, because there are some unexpected RL bills that you have to pay? Well as a Free User, worst thing that did happen to me is that I lost my land and had to rent a new parcel when I had the money again. What about Premium? When you're on a monthly or quarterly subscription, your account will be on hold until you're able to pay your subscription fee again.
• The Premium gifts? Oh well, most of them are of little use for me.
• The Premium sandboxes? Hm... Do I need one with own land anyways?
• The stipend? Well... yes it did help a bit, but still there was that regular fee that I had to cough up whether I had the money or not.

So, what is a Premium worth to me? Nothing *I* am ready to pay anymore.

 

All of this is true, especially the bit about the punishment of barring log-ons if your tier isn't paid. But it's hard to see how they could do otherwise unless they start a system where they immediately dump all land not tiered, instead of giving it 60 days or whatever. That's the issue. People would scream if they started doing that. 

I agree the premium gifts are almost always lame, except I did like that 90-prim picnic basket of tea things, that's a keeper! 

I need the premium sandboxes and use them every day, because while I "have land," it's rented out, or it has commons that I'm trying to keep nice for tenants, so I can't very well try to build something or unpack boxes on those, that's the thing. But I agree, for a non-landlord, and non-builder (and I'm not one, just knocking prims together), what IS the point?

But...I have as much of a hard time trying to think up a good INCENTIVE as I do DISINCENTIVE.

The only thing they haven't tried is tier --  free 1024 instead of 512. That might pick up some of the slack of their abandoned land. But it wouldn't get used. 

Better content? There's that. 

Gift cards in stores? There'd be a fight over which FIC got to be the lucky ones with that loss-leader...

You forgot to mention those games and seasonal things they have. I find them AWFUL. The games kill you and the Halloween thing, for example, was so horridly gruesome I felt like abuse reporting it.

What I'd personal want is a small-holders' society -- a vote. Premium accounts could suggest features and collect votes as we used to have. Not JIRAs run by nerds in secret. But the old voting system on everything, not just bugs, which we used to have before it was deliberately killed in the most devious way. But democracy is not a value for many.

 

[Tari Landar]

40 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not a hand that feeds me, dear. You don't have enough experience in business. It's hand that both feeds me and harms me, so I LOOK AT IT and DEBATE IT, because, you know, it's a free country and I want solutions, not political correctness.

 

Ummm, don't tell others what experience they have in business unless you actually know. Since you can't possibly know what experience I actually have with business, because I've never told you-or anyone really...everything you said after the above quoted, went in one ear and out the other...in a "I didn't read it" kind of fashion.

You remove any and all merit your ideas, your thoughts and your opinions can potentially have(and I'm certain that they very well, have,  do currently at times, and may again at some point), when you act like a know it all all.the.damn.time, most especially when you jump to reach conclusions on which your feet can't stand.

Good day sir

 

 

I said...

 

Good day

In all honesty it's far too early/late in my "middle of dealing with another bout of insomnia that'll have me up for 4 or 5 days in row again", to get into a pissing match over who knows more about business. But.. I assure you, I've plenty of experience in business, thank you, and...for real...have a good day  

 

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But democracy is not a value for many.

When the only people allowed to vote are Madland Landowners, that's not a 'Democracy', that's an 'Oligarchy', or possibly a 'Junta', if their aim is to criminalise 75% of the population for being different, and drive them out of SL, shut down 2/3rds of the grid and kill off SL

 

[NevaehHeartstrings]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

When the griefers turn on some big and favored customer of LL's, then they'll act and not before. And in fact, that's why we have even the curbs we do against copybotting, despite previous Lindens in high places no longer with us releasing the viewer into the wild (huge mistake) and allowing reverse-engineering and copying with a snicker -- they were overruled. And thank God for it.

 

You have no clue anything can be stolen online.. If SL did not have 3rd party viewers I'll bet it would not be around today..The only issue with 3rd party viewers is they got handcuffed being muzzled by the lab with the 'shared experience crap' when they were creating really awesome features, the decline might not had been as bad as it is today had linden lab forked out some resources to follow up server side to the great things viewer developers were coming up with viewer side.

Damn near every feature users wanted was being developed to fruition by 3rd party until the lindens stepped in.. Say'n 'Hey guys your costing us money we want to waste elsewhere'.. like in Project Stupid.

Maybe you should move to Sansar... getting the lab to let you be an advisor to them sharing your treasure trove of knowledge and insight.

[NevaehHeartstrings]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The topic is which category produces MORE griefers. And the answer is: day-old or free accounts. Not paid accounts. But free accounts. It doesn't matter what percentage of the population they are. There aren't more griefers because there are more of them -- that's silly. There are more griefers from among their population, because of the ability to abuse the accounts with impunity. That's all. Griefing is griefing. It's against the rules. What enables you to do that is a problem. The Lindens tend toward solving griefing with technical rather than social fixes. So they'll have to do this in due course.

Stop feeding them in the ways you do then... do the whole grid a favor stop acting so thinned skinned when they fall into your attention getting traps.

[NevaehHeartstrings]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You forgot something, too.  releasing the viewer into the wild (huge mistake)

 

If it was not for 3rd party viewers I would have left years ago!

[Rhonda Huntress]

2 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

If it was not for 3rd party viewers I would have left years ago!

So that a point in Prok's favor ....

 

[NevaehHeartstrings]

10 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

So that a point in Prok's favor ....

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

And thank you for not taking my playful teasing seriously ....

Please continue on with the fight debate.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens tend toward solving griefing with technical rather than social fixes. So they'll have to do this in due course.

I figure that if they haven't done it yet, they're not likely to ever do it. Why do you make it seem like there are griefers just running rampant throughout the grid? I honestly haven't seen NEARLY as much griefing as there used to be, (I may be wrong about this, but it's what I see).

[KanryDrago]

33 minutes ago, Aislin Ceawlin said:

I figure that if they haven't done it yet, they're not likely to ever do it. Why do you make it seem like there are griefers just running rampant throughout the grid? I honestly haven't seen NEARLY as much griefing as there used to be, (I may be wrong about this, but it's what I see).

I am with you here, I have my own plot I havent been griefed once in two years despite it being easy to find if someone wants to grief me. Maybe Prokofy Neva should look closer to home to find the reason why they see griefers under every rock. I am pretty easy going but I will admit her forum persona alone has ensured that if looking to rent I would go homeless before renting from her. I can certainly see why she might attract griefers to her

[Love Zhaoying]

Had another thought, maybe land barons would have some advantage if "free" was "Disincentivized".  Just like in RL.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

my playful teasing

..

[Solar Legion]

54 minutes ago, Aislin Ceawlin said:

I figure that if they haven't done it yet, they're not likely to ever do it. Why do you make it seem like there are griefers just running rampant throughout the grid? I honestly haven't seen NEARLY as much griefing as there used to be, (I may be wrong about this, but it's what I see).

Heck I've been here for quite some time myself and even started as one of these apparently dreaded 'free' accounts.

Griefers target what they consider to be 'fun' targets or those that have the potential to become 'fun' targets as a general rule. Take away their fun and they really do (in general) go away. They don't go away because of any kind of reporting on them - far from it, they thrive on the attention.

There are no social methods one can use to stop griefers - not truly. You can use social methods to dissuade them or remove the incentive to see you as a target but you're kidding yourself if you think such methods have any effect beyond that.

For the most egregious types - the ones that are truly in it to harass someone - it gets even worse and quite complicated. Someone with a grudge is not out to get a laugh or for kicks. About the only crossover with the other type happens to be how indiscriminate such people can be in how they go after their target - there will be innocent bystanders caught up in the crossfire. At the most one ought to give due warning that a particular person has a vengeful streak, send in their report(s) ... and just move on.

One type can occasionally turn into the other but such is quite rare.

TL:DR of all of this - Social fixes are worthless for truly serious griefing.

[AlecciaLin]

Every tree is going to have some bad apples. You don't cut down the whole tree, or in this instance burn down the whole orchard because of it.

 

I'm sure you have some legitimate grievances with some of the non-premium community, but i genuinely think this would do more harm than good. My first avatar I started back in 2007, I was never premium, but I poured more money than is healthy into Lindens, and I helped build RP sims and run various RPs. Most of our people would not have been there if only premiums were allowed because as a vampire roleplay sim, it was Adult.

Likewise now on my new avi, having returned from a hiatus, I still don't see much advantage to being premium. Still giving back to the economy of the game though without being a troll or really rude to anyone. 

As much of my RL earnings as I am willing to pour into this digital world, it is better for me, and many like me, to be able to pay what we have available when it's available to us.

 

Just my 2 cents. Again, OP, not taking shots at you here. Just genuinely sharing my perspective.

[mortalum]

I agree with Thornill. I've worked hard in SL for little pay, paid a lot in RL wages for loads of gain- all I see with a paid account is MLand that's not really appealing to me, sorry  

[Hoshi Kenin]

Ahhhhh, good old, Prokov.  Coming in from the cold, rather like myself, from time to time, to put pen to paper, or finger to keyboard,  with the ever hapless forumites about insignificant significant things.  

Still, to exercise my fine fingers.   Paid accounts only?

If the Lindens actually gave us something substantial for them, they would happen en masse.  Which they easily could...... if their accountants didn't get indigestion rather easily.  So. You already know the answer to your question. 

Fire off a missive to the crazy cats partying on a friday afternoon (do they still do that? anyone?) as they will know full well why such a procedure would instantly kill SL......and their parties 

Grieffing could, and should have been dealt with effectively by LL years ago, when it was significant.  They chose not to do so.   Also, I not seen any bad grieffing for some time, mainly because I suspect the grieffers themselves have tired of this platform.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Hoshi Kenin
...nothing in particular. Why? What's it to ya?