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Prokofy Neva

Should There Be Disincentives for Free Accounts?

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On 12/12/2017 at 8:24 PM, Hoshi Kenin said:

Also, I not seen any bad grieffing for some time, mainly because I suspect the grieffers themselves have tired of this platform.

We still have the infamous YouTube griefers who do it for views, but even that seems to have decreased. I remember when it was an almost daily occurrence to run into griefers while out shopping / exploring, or reports of major sim/graphics card crashing attacks, but I almost never see any of that anymore. I have to agree that, perhaps, they ARE tiring of the platform.  To have SO MUCH griefer activity directed at one specific Avatar does make it seem as if it's being invited somehow.

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On 12/12/2017 at 3:48 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

You forgot something, too. It doesn't matter if the bulk of free accounts is way more than the bulk of premium accounts -- that's not the topic.

The topic is which category produces MORE griefers.

It's a fact that if you have (using random numbers) 500 premium members, and 5,000,000 free, then by the laws of averages you will have to have more whatever in the larger sample. That MAKES it a part of the topic, plain and simple. 

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On 12/12/2017 at 8:54 AM, NevaehHeartstrings said:

You have no clue anything can be stolen online.. If SL did not have 3rd party viewers I'll bet it would not be around today..The only issue with 3rd party viewers is they got handcuffed being muzzled by the lab with the 'shared experience crap' when they were creating really awesome features, the decline might not had been as bad as it is today had linden lab forked out some resources to follow up server side to the great things viewer developers were coming up with viewer side.

Damn near every feature users wanted was being developed to fruition by 3rd party until the lindens stepped in.. Say'n 'Hey guys your costing us money we want to waste elsewhere'.. like in Project Stupid.

Maybe you should move to Sansar... getting the lab to let you be an advisor to them sharing your treasure trove of knowledge and insight.

FWIW, I have no idea how long you've been in SL. The "muzzling" occured after a 3rd party viewer called Emerald was found to have malicious code slipped in by one of the coders that allowed the computers of users to be used for denial of service attacks. That viewer was banned as were the coders responsible. The remaining team brought back the viewer as Phoenix and is now Firestorm. Thanks to that team we now have multiple attachments to the same point. They are also the ones that exposed a loophole that Red Zone, a program that was supposed to weed out griefers, used to collect ISP info. It's why you are asked if you want to play streaming media since if you do and it is a live DJ, that DJ can get your ISP address.

All 3rd party viewers must now meet LL requirements and are listed in the SL wiki.

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5 hours ago, Bobbie Faulds said:

FWIW, I have no idea how long you've been in SL. The "muzzling" occured after a 3rd party viewer called Emerald was found to have malicious code slipped in by one of the coders that allowed the computers of users to be used for denial of service attacks. That viewer was banned as were the coders responsible. The remaining team brought back the viewer as Phoenix and is now Firestorm. Thanks to that team we now have multiple attachments to the same point. They are also the ones that exposed a loophole that Red Zone, a program that was supposed to weed out griefers, used to collect ISP info. It's why you are asked if you want to play streaming media since if you do and it is a live DJ, that DJ can get your ISP address.

All 3rd party viewers must now meet LL requirements and are listed in the SL wiki.

 Yes Emerald was banned/ 2 of the developers going to jail .. Still muzzling the developers has made Second Life user features pale in comparison to what they could be...Black Dragon Viewers developer is always coming up with great features.. those are forced to be removed by the lab everytime. while the firestorm team seems to go through more proper channels with a chance 1% of what they pitch might get accepted..The viewer wars are over that's a good thing... I still do find the labs lack of faith in 3rd party viewers rather disturbing.

"All 3rd party viewers must now meet LL requirements and are listed in the SL wiki."

 To meet linden labs requirements to be included in the 3rd party viewer guide you must follow what they say..not everyone is in it or has to be like Cool VL Viewer

" Thanks to that team we now have multiple attachments to the same point."

Sorry, that code was originally developed by the developer of the extinct Emergence Viewer

"They are also the ones that exposed a loophole that Red Zone, a program that was supposed to weed out griefers, used to collect ISP info."

Sorry but the Singularity Team brought that up to the lab first... with all of them later integrating in the media patch distributed by linden lab.. Most know even the media patch itself was broken for a few years.

"Emerald was found to have malicious code slipped in by one of the coders that allowed the computers of users to be used for denial of service attacks."

It also allowed them to steal log in details.. hacking into user accounts..Muting other peoples abilities to use voice.

"loophole that Red Zone, a program that was supposed to weed out griefers, used to collect ISP info"

While that developer went to prison.. the mantle was passed to a friend who ran the same system within the rules GEMINI CDS who ran that system for over a half decade afterwards until linden lab "made him go away" in 2016... then he passed it on to another friend with it still alive today!!:D!! .. Sure it might be within terms of service so they say??9_9 ...the fact is the developer has exploited other server side Vulnerabilities/Exploits that they would only have such intimate knowledge of...Media Patch is for those who want a "good feeling" inside all fuzzy..those in the know turn off all sources of media in the viewer in suspect places

Some might say so what?.. that's fine but crazy shenanigans get ignored for years like one man able to use linden god powers all over the grid treating residents as personal puppets.. but god help us all if one of the certified viewers try to squeeze an inch in with a feature like I Dunno?

 

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8 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

"Emerald was found to have malicious code slipped in by one of the coders that allowed the computers of users to be used for denial of service attacks."

It allowed them to steal log in details.. hacking into user accounts

It ALSO allowed ...

DDOS over a forum spat was still an illegal bit spitefulness that helped end Emerald.

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5 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Yes Emerald was banned/ 2 of the developers going to jail

No-one went to jail. I think you are getting mixed up with the developer of Red Zone being sent back to jail because they violated their parole conditions.
Red Zone was nothing to do with the Emerald team or any other TPV team.

 

6 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

I still do find the labs lack of faith in 3rd party viewers rather disturbing.

As far as I'm aware, most of the currently active TPVs have a really good relationship with LL these days. Firestorm certainly does.

8 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

" Thanks to that team we now have multiple attachments to the same point."

Sorry, that code was originally developed by the developer of the extinct Prudence Viewer

Do you mean Imprudence viewer?
The secondary attachment points were developed by the Emerald develeopers. Most other TPVs adopted that feature at the time though.

11 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

"They are also the ones that exposed a loophole that Red Zone, a program that was supposed to weed out griefers, used to collect ISP info."

Sorry but the "larger at the time"  Singularity Team brought that up to the lab first with all of them later integrating in the media patch distributed by linden lab.. Most know even the media patch itself was broken for a few years.

I really don't know where you're getting your information from. LL never distributed a "media patch", presuming you mean the media filter.
The original coder of the media filter after the Red Zone fiasco was Sione Lomu, who was not a developer for any TPV, he was just a concerned user.
He initially submitted his patch directly to the Phoenix viewer team on the JIRA & also placed it on Bitbucket for the other TPV’s who wanted to integrate it.

Ref:
PHOE-2514 - Media and audio security filter - original patch submission to Phoenix by Sione.

23 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

"Emerald was found to have malicious code slipped in by one of the coders that allowed the computers of users to be used for denial of service attacks."

It allowed them to steal log in details.. hacking into user accounts

There was never any code in Emerald that stole users login details.
The malicious code in Emerald that led to the LL ban was a hidden iframe on the login screen that flooded a rival developers web site with requests causing a denial of service attack. That was all.  Yes that was bad enough but don't make it worse then it was by spreading false information.

30 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

While that developer went to prison.. the mantle was passed to a friend who ran the same system within the rules GEMINI CDS who ran that system for over a half decade

You have this the wrong way round too.
Gemini CDS came first.  The beta version of the CDS scripts were leaked & those leaked scripts were used to develop Red Zone.

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33 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

No-one went to jail. I think you are getting mixed up with the developer of Red Zone being sent back to jail because they violated their parole conditions.
Red Zone was nothing to do with the Emerald team or any other TPV team.

 

As far as I'm aware, most of the currently active TPVs have a really good relationship with LL these days. Firestorm certainly does.

Do you mean Imprudence viewer?
The secondary attachment points were developed by the Emerald develeopers. Most other TPVs adopted that feature at the time though.

I really don't know where you're getting your information from. LL never distributed a "media patch", presuming you mean the media filter.
The original coder of the media filter after the Red Zone fiasco was Sione Lomu, who was not a developer for any TPV, he was just a concerned user.
He initially submitted his patch directly to the Phoenix viewer team on the JIRA & also placed it on Bitbucket for the other TPV’s who wanted to integrate it.

Ref:
PHOE-2514 - Media and audio security filter - original patch submission to Phoenix by Sione.

There was never any code in Emerald that stole users login details.
The malicious code in Emerald that led to the LL ban was a hidden iframe on the login screen that flooded a rival developers web site with requests causing a denial of service attack. That was all.  Yes that was bad enough but don't make it worse then it was by spreading false information.

You have this the wrong way round too.
Gemini CDS came first.  The beta version of the CDS scripts were leaked & those leaked scripts were used to develop Red Zone.

"No-one went to jail. I think you are getting mixed up with the developer of Red Zone being sent back to jail because they violated their parole conditions.
Red Zone was nothing to do with the Emerald team or any other TPV team."

Nothings mixed up several did face federal charges in several indictments...go can go to jail and still have your fight in court .

"As far as I'm aware, most of the currently active TPVs have a really good relationship with LL these days. Firestorm certainly does."

Personal experience and opinion that is understandable

"You have this the wrong way round too.
Gemini CDS came first.  The beta version of the CDS scripts were leaked & those leaked scripts were used to develop Red Zone

what one came first the Chicken or the Egg ? ... it is still around to even this day... Redzone under the name (CDS) by the same man who owned it who was able to use god powers for years griefing the grid (Up until 2016)..who could lag your sim remotely.. who had a hack that let him import any mesh model of any size or complexity as only '1' Land Impact.

( That same man was a co-developer with you on the emerald project.. so its understandable your feelings in the matter.. my apologies)

" Yes that was bad enough but don't make it worse then it was by spreading false information."

I just refuse to dumb down the facts or bury it where the lab would like to see it.

Edited by NevaehHeartstrings
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9 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You deserve a prize for this insult!! :x

Really it was not a insult at all..See Prok has helped Second Life more then most people here ever has including myself.. but the majority of it was done in the early years of mainland so that credit faded with old lindens leaving, the mainland losing priority by the lab..everything she says becomes unsung with most not really have been residents at the time to know...She really did a lot of help back then in regards to new residents.. when most land barons were only in it for the get rich/get out business and still are.. most do not like her for being overly vocal..its not that she talks too much.. most  people hate to hear the truth.        

I really do believe she could have good advice for linden lab on how to manage a next generation mainland. (They will build one in Sansar a few years from now.. when all the features are in place)

I must admit my comments might have been a little tough but she is a tough lady .. most times she is right on in most issues.. outside how she deals with griefers .

 

 

 

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On 12/12/2017 at 9:02 AM, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Stop feeding them in the ways you do then... do the whole grid a favor stop acting so thinned skinned when they fall into your attention getting traps.

This is one of the most deeply-held faith memes about griefing and couldn't be more wrong.

No one does this with terrorism in the real world -- never reports it and never punishes it -- and it's the same dynamic.

I don't "give attention" to griefers -- they get their own attention by making day-old alts from proxie log-ins, then do things like invade groups or create conference calls and spout racist, crazy tuff

This isn't crossing the street *first* to comment on them or say there build is vicious or hateful. In fact, 12 years ago, that is how I came to the attention of 4 chan/Woodbury griefers but that doesn't mean that this is somehow "wrong" to do.

Since then, I've tried different tactics, among them, doing nothing. For months, they made the racist accounts and spewed hatred in my name and 75% of the people believed them and spewed hate and spam at *me*. The Lindens moved slowly or not at all. I didn't blog or post comments or do anything about it, I was busy.

That did NOT make it go away. It never does. "Starving a griefer for attention" may shake him loose for awhile, and it's good to log off when they do that to see if they get bored but by no means does it make them go away.

People in this thread and out have this silly stereotype that I'm a crazy old bat shrieking with rage and shaking with impotence each time one of these incidents happening, making the kiddies circle back and grief moar because it's so much fun. But that's ridiculous. I'm often not even online when they are carrying on. When they attack, I ignore them and block them, report them, and sometimes put my account on "busy" because I am bombarded by asshats who think I'm behind it. I don't freak out or rage or "get all too easily riled," I simply abuse report and move on.

When there's a dozen alts and the Lindens leave some of them in the People list, I then publicize it a few months into it to try to get action. That's all that works. Even dozens of people ARing *me* because they think I've done it, or a dozen people ARing the griefing account because they are not clueless and get what is really going on takes awhile to get action. But eventually they are all deleted.

The idea that you are supposed to "be silent" or "do nothing" and engage in some kind of omerta or be thought of as a crazy loon is just thoroughly reprehensible. Griefing is wrong; this kind of more complex griefing is pernicious. The greatest weapon against it is human solidarity, and sending ARs because you know it is wrong. They thrive, instead, on snickering and blaming the victim. So you know where the problem lies...

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5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

People in this thread and out have this silly stereotype that I'm a crazy old bat shrieking with rage and shaking with impotence

You started a thread demanding the banning of "wear to unpack shopping containers" suposedly to "save resources" but the tone of the rant made it plain you were more concerned about noobs not needing to rent squalid micro-parcels to rez and open their boxes, from Madlander Slumlords, like back in the good old days...

You started a thread demanding that non premi-nazi accounts be prevented from amongst other things "buying enough lindens to pay rent for nice parcels in the private islands" because, it means they wont rent squalid micro parcels from Madlander Slumlords, like back in the good old days...

You comment that removing laws designed to preserve neutral access to the internet is a good thing, apparently because you hope it will stop dirty poor people having internet and thus prevent them logging into SL as filthy free-2-play peasants who won't rent squalid micro parcels from Madlander Slumlords, like back in the good old days...

You regularly accuse anyone who knows how a computer works, and anyone who isn't a premi-nazi of being part of a Global Commie Techno-Conspiracy of Thieves, Copybotters, and Griefers, out to destroy you, and western civilisation...

This is just a tiny sample of the kind of thing that give people the impression you describe...

Reap as ye sow, Prok... Reap as ye sow...
 

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31 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

People in this thread and out have this silly stereotype that I'm a crazy old bat shrieking with rage and shaking with impotence each time one of these incidents happening, making the kiddies circle back and grief moar because it's so much fun. But that's ridiculous. I'm often not even online when they are carrying on. When they attack, I ignore them and block them, report them, and sometimes put my account on "busy" because I am bombarded by asshats who think I'm behind it. I don't freak out or rage or "get all too easily riled," I simply abuse report and move on.
 

Now technically that can't be considered a stereotype, unless there was an entire class of Prokofy Nevas and the one speaking is being judged by people's reactions to other ones. Rest assured that the public perception of "crazy" and "shrieking with rage and shaking with impotence" is completely independent of your age and real-life gender.

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26 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The idea that you are supposed to "be silent" or "do nothing" and engage in some kind of omerta or be thought of as a crazy loon is just thoroughly reprehensible. Griefing is wrong; this kind of more complex griefing is pernicious. The greatest weapon against it is human solidarity, and sending ARs because you know it is wrong. They thrive, instead, on snickering and blaming the victim. So you know where the problem lies...

okay...this might get long...ok, it will

No one says you have to be silent, or do nothing...no one that possesses even a modicum of intelligence anyway(and those that don't, aren't hard to spot, so ignore them). What people, and even LL, have been telling you for years is to use the tools at your disposal, but to do it *wisely, using methods that won't only serve to fuel the flames. Yes, it's possible to do. You aren't the first person to have been targeted, despite your claims that you seem to get it worse than most, or anyone else..you're actually not correct in that assessment. You may, perhaps, be the loudest person that gets griefed to the extent that you do, and you may be the one that makes the biggest deal of it, yes...but, you're not alone in being griefed...not by a long shot. That was, and remains, one of your biggest mistakes. Whether you're willing to come out right and say it, or not, you've eluded to it countless times over the years. Some of us have been around long enough to have seen it, please don't forget that lil tidbit. Many of us have been around just as long as, if not longer than, you. 

You're not thought of as a crazy loon simply because you speak out against your griefers(note I didn't say all griefers, but rather yours...you stay pretty damn silent about others' griefiing...but..I digress...). People, likely, have that opinion, and plenty of others, because of your other actions, opinions, thoughts, words, inaction,  whatever else have you...it's a collective of contributing factors. Most of the opinions I've seen are directly related to your actions(inaction at times) and your opinions...on a myriad of subjects, far surpassing the whole "I'm griefed all the time" subject-which, coincidentally, you turn nearly every topic you participate into, at some point. I love a good derailing too, I think lots of us do...but come on..at some point, people will get tired of everything turning into one topic, lol. I don't hate you, I don't think you're always a bad person I think you don't take any type of criticism well, and it makes it difficult for many people to talk to you, about loads of things..but, that is what it is..you're not alone in that either. I don't have to agree with everyone I converse with, the world would be a very boring, boring place if I did. 

Solidarity does work, to an extent, on loads of things..but it can't work if one of the parties involved is only looking for validation or vindication, and not actually standing together with others against a common ground/enemy. This is why you, personally, (I feel) run into a lack of solidarity...you don't really come across as someone that truly wants it..you just want people to agree with you. Again, that's how you come across. It may not be your intent, I can't say for certain, but after years and years of the same old same old, I'd have to venture a guess that the perceived view others get of you based on your own reactions/words/opinions is a lot more on point than what you think you're projecting. I promise you, it's super easy to go back and say "well, that's not what I meant, let me explain", than it is to continue with "you're all wrong, I'm right, here's why".. No one here "thrives on blaming the victim"-that's pretty damn insulting to every single person that has ever commented on one of these threads wherein you mention your griefing to say "I may not like prok, but no one deserves to be griefed like that"...so..stop with that *****, and you might just find more folks willing to aid you in your battle. If you continue the way you're going now, the way you always have, you're going to find your side of the battlefield completely empty one day, and you will, absolutely be on the losing end of the battle-even if you never deserved what started it all in the first place. 

Yes, despite what you think, or are willing to say to others, YOUR griefers, absolutely thrive on the attention you give them. They've come directly out and said so, countless times (again, remember, loads of us have been around just as long...we're not all new to these shenanigans). You DO fuel the fire more than you think, and eveyr single time someone tells you that you tell them they're victim blaming...Stop doing that, because that's not even remotely what folks are doing. Even if their advice you seem to find unhelpful...others might actually be helped by it(and they have, countless times). You seem to think people can only address your version, what's happened or happening to you, and no one else. You turn everything around, to ensure you're the focus....Yeah, you're making things worse for yourself. If someone impales you with a stick, and you pull said stick out, you don't coat your finger in salt and start digging around in the hole tearing things open further, making things a million times worse..and then claim all of the damage was done by the stick(the original offender). 

I don't think most people hate you, I think a ***** ton of people may not like you(not that you care, nor should you necessarily). But, you do make things worse for yourself, all the time. It's not because you simply have differing views than the rest of the world, but also how you present them. YOUR griefers,, and countless others, all over the grid, do thrive on attention. That is a fact you can deny until you're blue in the face...but it will always remain true. There is very little the remainder of the grid can do to help you. There is even less the remainder of the grid is going to be *willing* to help you with, if you continue the way things are. You'll never find solidarity, you'll never find people willing to even AR...because you give them no reason to.

I've ARd people griefing you, people I knew were griefing you, people that were causing trouble for you, more times than I am willing to count. I don't give them attention, I just AR them, and use whatever tools I have at my disposal to ensure they're not a problem for me. I don't do it and then tell you about it, because you're not a very nice person to me, or anyone else, 99% of the time. I do it, because it's the right thing to do. I don't give them the attention they want by publicly addressing it...I just do what I can, when I can. It just seems...that's not enough for you..and it's not the solidarty you *want*, so, it's not good enough..and..well...shrugs, eventually people are gonna stop helping you altogether. I've said all of this countless times before, I know I'm not alone, others have been saying it for years too.

 

 

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On 12/15/2017 at 11:44 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

This thread reminds me of the old saying, "Opinions are like *ssholes, everyone has one."

And they spew a  lot of S**T!!

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Back to the topic at hand....

I disagree with "disincentives" for free accounts. I have never paid for a premium account  because I don't feel that they're worth it. Giving users a $300L a week stipend and a free SL house really doesn't justify the money that I'd put into it each month. Plus, when LL runs deals for premium membership, the fine print is a real turn off (1/2 price on ONE month of a quarterly membership). 

I've also been lucky in the fact that I have never had to put a single RL cent into my accounts, I've gotten jobs (adult ones mostly) that have given me a pretty decent bank account. Besides that, I've never rented land in SL, as I find it too expensive...and having to work to pay rent in SL is too much like RL for me. 

Making free residents suffer by not paying premium would definitely hurt users. I think that if (after 8 years) LL restricted my access because I was a free account, I'd probably leave. Adding better incentives (reduction of premium costs, larger land, better stipend) might get more people to change, but I'm pretty much against paying for SL period, so I still wouldn't change. 

As for the whole griefer issue, I'm sorry that you're having these problems. Yes, the ability to open accounts and close them again is a problem. I run into them in groups that I'm in a couple times a week, but making everyone suffer because of a few asshats, really isn't fair or the best way to handle the problem. 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress......

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If the numbers keep decreasing on SL, which they have in the years I have been here, then requiring someone to have a paid account is just going to contribute to that.  

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On 12/12/2017 at 7:48 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

The topic is which category produces MORE griefers. And the answer is: day-old or free accounts.

Which causes more traffic collisions? People driving cars or dogs driving cars? People, so we should pass a law so that only dogs can drive cars from now on.

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I hangout in a furry community,  we get the trolls, we get the griefers,  but MOST of us that have been at the place for years just know, ignoring them, they move on, so they might spout their bs, but if nobody responds, they tend to go away.  so IGNORE them prok, ffs you've been in sl maybe a few years longer then I have.    but you are still falling for it?  come on proky you are smarter then them and smarter then their bs.

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3 hours ago, Maelstrom Janus said:

Such as ???

How about the tens of millions of Dollars worth of L$ spent every year on RENT paid to the large estates that make up 2/3rds of SL, who use it to pay their TIER, or the STORES full of products on the Marketplace, that people spend large amounts of money on, of which LL get a 5% cut, or the STORES in-world, on which RENT or TIER is payed out of the takings from sales to people...

NON Self Entitled Premi-Nazi Madlander people.

Did you forget all that MONEY? Otr are you one of those arrogant ignorant self entitled Premi-Nazi Madlander types who STILL foolishly believe that ONLY Premi-Nazi's are allowed to buy/earn & have L$?

Hmmm do I REALLY need to check your profile to guess your rez date? Not really no, 2006 or 2007 right?

2nd Wave Lastnamer Entitlement Syndrome Sufferer...
 

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