Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?

[WinnieTheWerewolfPup]

This has been bugging me for quite some time. I have been playing secondlife for over 3 years now and it boggles my mind that there is rampant discrimination of people simply because of their choice of avatar. People flip their lids if a certain type of avatar shows up and immediately ban said person from events, public sims, and public stores even though the person did nothing wrong other than choosing an avatar that other people dont like.  We all have our opinions but this is starting to get ridiculous that certain avatars cant go practically anywhere because people are "scared of them" or just simply dont like them. that is not how this place is supposed to be. secondlife is supposed to be a fun, nice place to be yet its hostile and discriminatory. ive been waiting for 3 years now and all Linden Labs has done is ban gatchas. because THAT of all things was the biggest problem. So I am asking Linden Labs. when do you all plan to do something about all this racism, discrimination, and intolerance running rampant across SL? Even when we report people that very clearly violate TOS you do nothing. Do you plan on doing anything about this? or are we just going to have to suffer and avoid expressing ourselfs for who we want to be in order to participate in the game? does anyone else agree? Its been getting worse and worse and Linden Labs wont lift a single finger about it. 

[Chic Aeon]

To be honest I didn't read your whole rant but discrimination was in the TOS when I "signed" it fourteen years ago and as far as I know it is still there. Have you actually READ the TOS. What is in there and what happens inworld and gets enforced can be two different things. 

 

And as an aside, I had a "black" alt more than a decade ago and she got tons of compliments on her looks. So it isn't always one way. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

13 minutes ago, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

This has been bugging me for quite some time. I have been playing secondlife for over 3 years now and it boggles my mind that there is rampant discrimination of people simply because of their choice of avatar. People flip their lids if a certain type of avatar shows up and immediately ban said person from events, public sims, and public stores even though the person did nothing wrong other than choosing an avatar that other people dont like.  We all have our opinions but this is starting to get ridiculous that certain avatars cant go practically anywhere because people are "scared of them" or just simply dont like them. that is not how this place is supposed to be. secondlife is supposed to be a fun, nice place to be yet its hostile and discriminatory. ive been waiting for 3 years now and all Linden Labs has done is ban gatchas. because THAT of all things was the biggest problem. So I am asking Linden Labs. when do you all plan to do something about all this racism, discrimination, and intolerance running rampant across SL? Even when we report people that very clearly violate TOS you do nothing. Do you plan on doing anything about this? or are we just going to have to suffer and avoid expressing ourselfs for who we want to be in order to participate in the game? does anyone else agree? Its been getting worse and worse and Linden Labs wont lift a single finger about it. 

It's not clear what kind of discrimination you're referencing here. Do you mean sims that insist you have a mesh body? Parcels that don't permit furries? Or do you mean something more directly analogous to RL discrimination?

Personally, I don't go to places that ban particular sorts of avi, including system ones, furries, and so forth. But that's me.

As someone will be along to tell you shortly, the basic rule of land ownership in SL is, and has always been, "my land, my rules" -- barring only types of representation banned in the TOS and CS.

That's not going to change, because of SL's economic model, it's philosophy, and the fact that this kind of arbitrary power and control is one of the appeals of land ownership for some.

For what it's worth, my own view has always been that I don't want to patronize places that feature that sort of non-inclusive rule. I'd rather hang at places and with people who are welcoming to all.

ETA: Chic's point about discrimination being against the TOS and CS is true, but applies only to intolerance against RL identities, and is, as she says, not particularly well enforced. I've never heard of a region being compelled by it to be less discriminatory. 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Rowan Amore]

I've been in SL almost 13 years and have never been discriminated against at any place.  I was asked once to be taller but that's it.  I also frequent places that don't allow child avatars or furry avatars.

A region owner is within their rights to not allow whomever they choose.  No blondes, no males, no talking plants.  Stores and clubs are NOT public places either.

And...new accounts are often banned...ironically not on the forums.  😂🤣

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, OscarFoxxo said:

LL wont enforce any of the TOS rules to help them.

The only rules in the ToS and CS that I know of pertaining to child avatars all restrict where they can go and what they can do. That may not be fair, but it's a fact.

What are you referring to?

[Kathlen Onyx]

8 minutes ago, OscarFoxxo said:

i agree with this. something definetly needs to be done here. LL needs to do something about this.  chayton made great point.  child avatars cant go anywhere anymore. everyone everywhere is banning them just for kicks. its totally unfair.  they dont do anything wrong and yet people are more than eager to boot them just because "ew kids"  its very unfair and LL wont enforce any of the TOS rules to help them. something should be done about it

 

If you choose to be an avatar that often is not allowed places you have two choices. 1. hang out at places that they do or 2. change to a different avatar when visiting those sims. It's very easy to change to a simple system avatar if you want to shop at a place known to ban child avatars.  I know that it seems like you should not HAVE to do this but the way LL has set it up land owners can deny access to anyone they wish.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, MightyKu said:

I agree with this completely.  as someone who spends a lot of time with child avatars, i personally see countless sims, stores, events etc. that will ban child and furry avatars just beacause they can or simply because they dont like them. its getting to a point that there are very few places the kids i hang out with can go and it sadens me when they get immedietly booted from a place and i dont simply because they are child avatars. they are great people but god forbit a child avatr shows up

Surely you understand this already, but I'll explain it anyway.

To be clear, I'm explaining, not justifying. I do NOT ban child avis from the parcels I control.

There are a number of reasons why child avis can get restricted from parcels. One is concern that they represent a liability, especially in Adult areas. In the past, certainly, SL governance has sometimes been quick to suspend avatars against which any allegation of *cough* improper conduct with minors was made. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but there are many, especially club owners, who are nervous about the potential for false reports, misunderstandings, or even actual violations of the ToS in this regard. They ban children, in other words, out of an abundance of caution.

The second reason is that child avatars simply make some people uncomfortable. Probably, you might argue, they shouldn't . . . and I'd likely agree, generally. But one issue with a lot of child avatars that I've run across is that they RP children 24/7, and they tend to insist upon drawing you into that if you are communicating with them. I don't personally enjoy RP, and I am not comfortable talking to an adult RPing as a child -- although I'll generally do it anyway, because I try to be inclusive.

I think in that regard child avatars are sometimes their own worst enemies. I can't think of another form of RP that so consistently and often drags unwilling bystanders into the role playing.

[Eowyn Southmoor]

For such a young thread, i'm surprised that there's so many "new" posters replying on it, conveniently all in perfect agreement with each other 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

For such a young thread, i'm surprised that there's so many "new" posters replying on it, conveniently all in perfect agreement with each other 

Yeah. Kinda noticed that too. And in the Peeves thread too.

I was going to make a joke about "this is what happens when the babysitter falls asleep," but thought better of it . . .

[Pixie Kobichenko]

3 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

For such a young thread, i'm surprised that there's so many "new" posters replying on it, conveniently all in perfect agreement with each other 

🧦 

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah. Kinda noticed that too. And in the Peeves thread too.

I was going to make a joke about "this is what happens when the babysitter falls asleep," but thought better of it . . .

I was going to welcome everyone to Sock Puppet Sunday but decided not to.  😇

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

45 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

To be honest I didn't read your whole rant but discrimination was in the TOS when I "signed" it fourteen years ago and as far as I know it is still there. Have you actually READ the TOS. What is in there and what happens inworld and gets enforced can be two different things. 

 

And as an aside, I had a "black" alt more than a decade ago and she got tons of compliments on her looks. So it isn't always one way. 

I also have a Black character since I'm that RL.  I had ran into discrimation in world a few times.  I leave or if it's serious enough I have the option to lodge a ticket at the help desk or AR the person if there were nasty to me. Only a few of us actually read TOS's for anything although I do for any service I sign up for.

[Akane Nacht]

1 hour ago, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

So I am asking Linden Labs. when do you all plan to do something about all this racism, discrimination, and intolerance running rampant across SL?

Haven't encountered any in 14 yrs in SL. Maybe hang out with a different crowd? 

[Solar Legion]

Welcome to Second Life. As has been noted already, the only ToS/CS entries concerning child avatars concern where they are not allowed/what they are not allowed to do.

Beyond that, each parcel owner is free to allow or disallow just about any avatar type they choose. The discrimination clauses concern other factors and concern a fair bit more than simple parcel access.

Further there are places which allow children - look for them. Same with furs (*waves*).

Much ado about nothing whatsoever. With nearly copy/pasted responses from several that have posted in agreement.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

I have been banned so many places because of my ears and tail,  I just chalk it up to,  no loss and continue on and go visit the next place.  after 15 years here, I have zero reason to get bent out of shape, name calling,ect does not bother me,   the first couple years I would come unhinged, but eh people are easily ignored and blocked.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

there is rampant discrimination of people simply because of their choice of avatar. People flip their lids if a certain type of avatar shows up and immediately ban said person from events, public sims, and public stores even though the person did nothing wrong other than choosing an avatar that other people dont like.

There are discrimination rules in the TOS, but avatars aren't protected.

Those "public sims and stores" aren't public spaces we're entitled to, either. The store/land/sim owner can freely exclude any content they want from the premises. This has always been their right.

Ah, I read the read the username and now I see. I'd say you have even less of a case for "discrimination" if the reason is the apparent age of your avatar.

[belindacarson]

Seriously kid? That's why you have a mute button, use it

 

And as said in other threads, landowners can ban anyone for any reason they want to.

 

Plenty of other venues in SL, just be a grown up and go to another place.

 

@WinnieTheWerewolfPup

[Marianne Little]

3 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

For such a young thread, i'm surprised that there's so many "new" posters replying on it, conveniently all in perfect agreement with each other 

New posters? Where? Are their posts removed now?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

New posters? Where? Are their posts removed now?

Wow.

Yes. They have been.

[Marianne Little]

I went to a beach when I saw a blogger posting from it. I thought the beach was pretty.

I got hit on by a werewolf, you know, the ones that are always walking on two feet, hugely muscular and with a huge *****. It was no "Sex beach" in the description, or sex beds and blankets placed on the beach.

I did not like it, and teleported out.

Having werewolves doing this can lead to a ban for them, because the beach owner can not see who of them that is going to be a problem or not.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I went to a beach when I saw a blogger posting from it. I thought the beach was pretty.

I got hit on by a werewolf, you know, the ones that are always walking on two feet, hugely muscular and with a huge *****. It was no "Sex beach" in the description, or sex beds and blankets placed on the beach.

I did not like it, and teleported out.

Having werewolves doing this can lead to a ban for them, because the beach owner can not see who of them that is going to be a problem or not.

Reminds me of that song, "Werewolves of London" (Warren Zevon).

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, WinnieTheWerewolfPup said:

Its been getting worse and worse and Linden Labs wont lift a single finger about it. 

When I last saw them..their hands were tied.

 

[cariboustag]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

I went to a beach when I saw a blogger posting from it. I thought the beach was pretty.

I got hit on by a werewolf, you know, the ones that are always walking on two feet, hugely muscular and with a huge *****. It was no "Sex beach" in the description, or sex beds and blankets placed on the beach.

I did not like it, and teleported out.

Having werewolves doing this can lead to a ban for them, because the beach owner can not see who of them that is going to be a problem or not.

Someone needs to call animal control on these guys. They give the rest of us werewolf enjoyers a bad name.

However I don't think I'd ever go to any place that didn't explicitly say "hey, this is a supernatural/fantasy/whatever RP place" as one. Feel like it just ruins the vibe. I don't think graciousness was high on his priority list, however.

Edited August 1, 2022 by cariboustag
I constantly just say the same two things in different sentences for some reason.

[Marianne Little]

27 minutes ago, cariboustag said:

Someone needs to call animal control on these guys. They give the rest of us werewolf enjoyers a bad name.

However I don't think I'd ever go to any place that didn't explicitly say "hey, this is a supernatural/fantasy/whatever RP place" as one. Feel like it just ruins the vibe. I don't think graciousness was high on his priority list, however.

It was nothing about supernatural, roleplay or fantasy in the description either.

I don't react to other than human avatars. I do not like to be hit on by humans either, but it was  beast-----y vibe from that wolf. Tothally ok if the place describes it. Their kink is fine in their places. But yuck and yuck with minors asking for sex.

Only mesh avatars is one of those rules people do not like, and think it is unfair. It is like a bouncer in RL standing in the door to a popular nightclub and saying "You don't get in" and then let in another person in more expensive clothes.

It is unfair, but their rules. Bans of avatars that's not roleplayers from roleplay places, same there. Their rules. If they do not like people breaking the immersion, it is their right.

 

[Seicher Rae]

You're in a role play sim that is dedicated to ancient Rome. You will be "discriminated" against if you show up in a space suit. You are in an adult-themed sim that is dedicated to adult pose-balls (shows you how old an avatar I am) and prim parts, and you will be discriminated against if you show up in a mesh avatar or as a child. You are in a fashionista beach and will be discriminated against if you are in a system avatar. And it goes on.

Read the room. Adjust to said room or go elsewhere. Those ancient-Roman era role players are going to be mighty happy that their sim does "discriminate" based on avatar appearance. If you were one of them, my guess is you would be, too.

The things I cited are mild examples, and I'm sure if you dig around you can find some truly awful places that discriminate based on color, size, gender, you know, all the RL good stuff. 

Trying to force yourself into places where you are not wanted is kind of fruitless. Unless it is Linden owned land, every place you go is owned by someone, and those someones have their own reasons for doing things, good or bad.  I've never been discriminated against in any avatar form when I've been in world. It is pretty easy to find "inclusive" sims. One of my favorite places has just one rule, "Don't be a twit" (spelled differently though).