Premium Plus and Linden Homes

[Qie Niangao]

Sorry, @Nika Talaj, I have no idea about Horizons land at all; it has always seemed ridiculously overpriced to me, and recent escalations are just more of the same.

In contrast, Zindra, seems to have two markets: There's an almost sensible Adult, mostly residential market where land trades at a premium over most of Mainland but still sells from one occupant to another. Then there's a second market that I find inexplicable where land moves among resellers, seemingly always for sale. This stuff seems even more expensive than parcels in that first market. Somebody is (presumably) paying tier on those, but no buyer ever does anything with them other than put them back for sale. Some of those are occasionally rented out while still for sale, and some others claim to be for rent but sit vacant until another outfit takes over and puts it back for sale at more or less the same too-high price.

I honestly have no idea how any of that second market covers even a fraction of tier cost.

[Quistess Alpha]

51 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I have no idea about Horizons land at all; it has always seemed ridiculously overpriced to me, and recent escalations are just more of the same.

I'm also a bit perplexed. One special feature of note is that certain sections (some of the north west of the continent below horizons) have parcels which are not join-able or sub-dividable (such regions generally have a road exactly along the sim border), and high prices seem to keep a de-facto standard of build quality about, even without Beli-style rules.

[Claireschen Hesten]

7 hours ago, Teresa Firelight said:

the prices on Horizons have gotten so out of hand... like 350,000 and 400,000 $L for a single lot. 

I was just checking out prices there's some lots under L$100/sqm quite a few lots at L$500k and one person is asking L$1000000 or $4149 for a plot 😱

[Exavor Diesel]

36 minutes ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

I was just checking out prices there's some lots under L$100/sqm quite a few lots at L$500k and one person is asking L$1000000 or $4149 for a plot 😱

Some of those will be rentals. Landlords often put them up "for sale" at such prices so that they appear on the map, then in the parcel name they will often put the rental price and more often than not it will be reasonable in comparison. 

Of course this would not be necessary if it were possible to make it so that parcels available for rent appear clearly on the map, in the same manner as parcels listed for sale. 

Here is an example. Some may say L$700 p/w is still too high for a 1024sqm parcel with 702 prims but when you consider the landlord likely paid a premium to purchase that grid edge parcel, (albeit probably not L$488k) I'd argue that it's reasonable. 
 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Exavor Diesel

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Nika Talaj said:

Do you have any idea if there is any traffic in these parcels?  Unless there is an endless supply of suckers who are setting up new land holding companies, I'm completely bewildered at the "why" of this shell game.  I wonder if @Qie Niangao can explain it? 

This is how we spot fake occupancy that occurs sometimes between shuffling parcels from one  land group to another.

Group sells land to an "individual", said person tosses up a structure and decorates, then never returns, a group buys the parcel and wipes it .. sometimes the "individual" turns out to be the owner of the new land holding group or has a name eerily similar.

When a real person buys a plot of land with a starting price of $600 US (L$150K) .. they tend to show up fairly often.

 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

Are these land holders trying to artificially inflate prices buy selling parcels to themselves?

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Exavor Diesel said:

but when you consider the landlord likely paid a premium to purchase that grid edge parcel, (albeit probably not L$488k) I'd argue that it's reasonable. 

The bulk of really good plots are still in the hands of the people who bought them at launch.

Horizons was a gift to land barons, which is why it failed to take off despite having almost everything that made Belli a roaring success. Even now, if a Horizons parcel gets actually abandoned, you can't put a claim in for it as a neighbor, it MUST go to auction where some investment group will suck it up for a premium.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Are these land holders trying to artificially inflate prices buy selling parcels to themselves?

Yes, they are also holding back a lot of land that isn't in use and isn't for sale or even rent.

[Quistess Alpha]

3 hours ago, Exavor Diesel said:

Here is an example. Some may say L$700 p/w is still too high for a 1024sqm parcel with 702 prims but when you consider the landlord likely paid a premium to purchase that grid edge parcel, (albeit probably not L$488k) I'd argue that it's reasonable. 

The way I'd think about it is how long it'd take the landlord to make a return on their investment. Assuming tier is negligible (it isn't but it makes the math easier) Renting at 700/week will make back an initial investment of 150,000 (somewhat low at the moment) in a bit more than 4 years. Given the challenge of actually finding someone to rent the parcel from you, and the long time window, it doesn't really seem like it makes that much business sense to buy the parcel just to rent it.

If you're just trying to recoup some of your losses from your giant land-holding scandal though. . .

[Nika Talaj]

If this were real life, I would say that these high-value, endlessly flipping investments would indicate money laundering.

But even though the amounts are large by SL standards, the overall value of these transactions probably don't (in RL terms) amount to all THAT much.

Right?

Such a puzzlement.

[Katherine Heartsong]

13 hours ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

I was just checking out prices there's some lots under L$100/sqm quite a few lots at L$500k and one person is asking L$1000000 or $4149 for a plot 😱

That's nothing. I've seen parcels bordering Blake for near L2,000,000.

[Exavor Diesel]

19 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The bulk of really good plots are still in the hands of the people who bought them at launch.

Horizons was a gift to land barons, which is why it failed to take off despite having almost everything that made Belli a roaring success. Even now, if a Horizons parcel gets actually abandoned, you can't put a claim in for it as a neighbor, it MUST go to auction where some investment group will suck it up for a premium.

Hmm not so sure. Looking at the map right now there's in the region of ~150 avatars in Horizons, not including the info hubs. Compare that with Bay City which is virtually empty right now. (sadly) For me there is a real sense of community & life in Horizons, unfortunately the same cannot be said for many areas in SL as you no doubt already know.

As for abandoned parcels in Horizons, albeit a rarity - you can put in a claim but LL will likely receive interest from other individuals too and on that basis they will put them on auction. - I don't blame them. If they can take L$70k+ out of the economy, that's L$70k+ that won't be making its way to a Tilia account any time soon. So rightly or wrongly, it benefits LL to send them to auction. If that helps to keep SL afloat, then why not? 

18 hours ago, Quistess Alpha said:

The way I'd think about it is how long it'd take the landlord to make a return on their investment. Assuming tier is negligible (it isn't but it makes the math easier) Renting at 700/week will make back an initial investment of 150,000 (somewhat low at the moment) in a bit more than 4 years. Given the challenge of actually finding someone to rent the parcel from you, and the long time window, it doesn't really seem like it makes that much business sense to buy the parcel just to rent it.

I'm one of those "landlords" though not particularly a fan of that term. I rent out my parcels in Horizons at competitive rates and I don't expect rental returns to cover the cost of purchasing the parcel as you quite rightly made evident with your calculations. It does cover tier which indeed isn't negligible and will always be a factor for any land dealer. If a parcel sits empty, it still costs the land dealer tier and that is a problem land dealers cannot simply ignore. 

Location is everything. A parcel in a good location at a reasonable price will rent out. That said, if the parcel sits vacant for any length of time, I sell it and buy something else and if I'm lucky prices will have risen over time. It doesn't always work out that way and may also take time but so far it has enabled me to build a portfolio of nice parcels while being able to rent them out at competitive rates for the benefit of other residents.

For me it's just for fun. My rl job pays my rl bills and that's it. Some land dealers take it far more seriously and do make a rl living out of it but I'd hazard a guess they are few and far between and probably a lot smarter than I. The real winners are LL and good for them. - There would be no SL without them.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Exavor Diesel
spellings

[Teresa Firelight]

focusing back on the original topic... Premium Plus...

Today I ran into someone who thought that you could not upgrade a premium account to premium plus until it came up for renewal (monthly, quarterly or annually). However, that is not the case.

You can upgrade from premium to premium plus and pay the pro-rated difference at upgrade time.

I am pretty sure it doesnt go the other direction though, I think you have to be at a renewal date to downgrade from Premium Plus back to Premium or Basic.

[Lyric Demina]

25 minutes ago, Teresa Firelight said:

You can upgrade from premium to premium plus and pay the pro-rated difference at upgrade time.

I am pretty sure it doesnt go the other direction though, I think you have to be at a renewal date to downgrade from Premium Plus back to Premium or Basic.

I am glad to know this information.  Where does this information come from exactly?

[Coffee Pancake]

37 minutes ago, Virtue Demina said:

I am glad to know this information.  Where does this information come from exactly?

This is how dropping from regular premium to basic membership works.

Important to note, your tier drops to 0 the moment you drop to basic, although the other benefits continue right up to the last day of being premium. So .. don't do it in advance, set a reminder for a few days before it's due to renew.

[Teresa Firelight]

excellent advice Coffee!

[Teresa Firelight]

57 minutes ago, Virtue Demina said:

I am glad to know this information.  Where does this information come from exactly?

the part about the prorated upgrade comes from one of two places, possibly both. The video listed in post 1 AND something Patch said at a public appearance (some type of educator's conference I think).

The part about downgrading is just a guess on my part based on how premium -> basic works.

[Lyric Demina]

14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is how dropping from regular premium to basic membership works.

Important to note, your tier drops to 0 the moment you drop to basic, although the other benefits continue right up to the last day of being premium. So .. don't do it in advance, set a reminder for a few days before it's due to renew.

I am still not sure about the accuracy of Teresa's statement though.  She said "I think you have to be at a renewal date to downgrade from Premium Plus back to Premium or Basic."  And that's actually not how it works from Premium to Basic; I've downgraded well before renewal date before.  So having to be AT a renewal date to downgrade is the detail that caught me.

However, given your response and Teresa's I understand the intent behind the statement now -- you have to be AT the renewal date to SEE THE EFFECT OF the downgrade, is really the point.  But you can downgrade at any time, really, which is the same as Premium to Basic transitioning.

[Chic Aeon]

I haven't read this thread as I am not planning on being premium again AND I haven't seen that Premium Plus is available, BUT wanted to add for the folks that may have forgotten that when Premium Plus was first mentioned we were ASSURED officially (not sure which Linden it was years ago now) that costs would be amortized and people would get credit for any remaining premium dollars in their account. 

 

Details weren't mentioned and there is really no reason to believe that this idea will be in effect when the time comes but it certainly would be in The Labs best interest to keep the stated policy. 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Virtue Demina said:

I am still not sure about the accuracy of Teresa's statement though.  She said "I think you have to be at a renewal date to downgrade from Premium Plus back to Premium or Basic."  And that's actually not how it works from Premium to Basic; I've downgraded well before renewal date before.  So having to be AT a renewal date to downgrade is the detail that caught me.

You are correct in that you can initiate the downgrade process before the renewal date, but it does not take effect until the current subscription ends and thus there is no pro-rating of the fee.   Very likely downgrading from Premium Plus to regular Premium will be the same.

Whereas, LL has stated that with the new Premium Plus, there will be a way to upgrade into it via a pro-rated amount before your renewal date.

Edited May 20, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[Nando Yip]

Premium Plus will officially launch during SL19B (Thursday, June 16th through to Sunday, June 26th, 2022).

Grumpity Linden (VP of Operations) and Patch Linden (VP) of Product Operations will be discussing Premium Plus – price, benefits, etc.), during interviews at SL19B (dates TBC)).

The price will (obviously) be “more” than Premium, but there will be an initial “discount” for those signing-up following release.

Indicated initial benefits include:

More: free tier than Premium’s 1024 sq m; stipend; group slots.

Lower fees for uploads (excluding mesh initially, as the upload fees for this are calculated differently, so the hope is to offer discounted mesh loads after Premium Plus has been deployed).

“Future benefits” being considered for “the future”:  new region types; new Linden Home types; potentially discounts for options such as Name Changes, mobile applications (not defined), “priority access to some areas” (again not defined).

 

June 2022 Web User Group: Premium Plus Update + Marketplace rebuild – Inara Pey: Living in a Modemworld

[Nika Talaj]

48 minutes ago, Nando Yip said:

“Future benefits” being considered for “the future”:  new region types; new Linden Home types

I'm a little disapppointed that it sounds like no further detail on these will be available at introduction; since these are the only 2 benefits I've heard mentioned that have interested me, it seems unlikely that I'll be taking advantage of the discounted Plus price.  

[yestothis]

Just how many people who are premium because of linden homes? I would guess a lot! Linden lab is deliberately ignoring us. And I don’t need upload discounts, I do it once in awhile for a photo. 

This part is interesting though:

• The next major web project will be a refresh of all aspects of land sales – the Land Store, how Linden Homes are offered / selected; how land for sale is located, how it can be rented (and from whom), etc.

Can you say UNLIMITED chances to get a home! No more limitations! They'll possibly implement a feature so that you can't get a home you've already abandoned. Thoughts?

Edited June 2, 2022 by yestothis

[LittleMe Jewell]

36 minutes ago, yestothis said:

Can you say UNLIMITED chances to get a home! No more limitations! They'll possibly implement a feature so that you can't get a home you've already abandoned. Thoughts?

I honestly wouldn't mind the limited number of times that you can Abandon/Claim if they would put in a process to ensure that you do not get the same home during any of those times.  

If they give me 5 claims per 24 hours, I want them to be 5 UNIQUE claims.

[Nika Talaj]

1 hour ago, yestothis said:

Can you say UNLIMITED chances to get a home! No more limitations! 

/me offers @Patch Linden some Arnicare for that bruise on his forehead.

They might, just as easily, do something that would make GOH more difficult, or slower, to play.  Like ... /me shuts that thought down!  But I doubt Patch is that much of a killjoy.  😇

Also, it SOUNDS easy to filter out homes that you've recently abandoned ... however, if they don't currently keep any record of what you've let go other than simply counting them ... well, they'd have to store not only the locations, but probably also a time/date stamp ... adding new features is never as easy as it is to ask for them.  Right, Lil?

ETA: For Linden Homes, the rework might be things as simple as:

-- A better paging scheme for theme/home selection - the current one gets more unwieldy as they add themes

-- Changing the tiny check box

-  Top level selection of 512 vs 1024?

Personally, my own blue sky wish is for the ability to transfer a specific home to another premium account (regardless of whose account it is) via the web page.  The recipient gets notification inworld and on their dashboard, and the transfer does not go through until they accept it.  If you abandon it before they accept, nothing happens. haha.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Nika Talaj