Non-binary

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

So, i'm from mainland Europe and over here we don't see this happen all too often so maybe that's why most of what you just said flew right over my head. Sorry.

Ok, so picture this: A person looks male or female. It's just nature, one or the two.

I think it might help to try and keep in mind that, barring the most obvious physical differences, a lot of what passes as male vs female has been constructed by society.  For example...to one extreme we have a person who presents as a hyper female who wears lots of make-up, shows a lot of skin, stands in a less definitive way (is a bit more loose with their walk and mannerisms).  Much of this was developed through socialization by the society a person grew up in, and could easily be changed.

Sometimes a non-binary person will rebel against the injunctions of society described above that define womanhood -- they don't want to fit into a prescribed definition of femininity -- so they say they are not a woman (as it is being defined in their particular culture at that time). 

In other words, gender is much more than our plumbing.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I hesitate to say this, because I know how difficult it must be to have to rehearse this over and over again . . . but good conversation.

Excepting the idiocy about "re-education camps" of course. 🙄

Thank you.

[MalibuBratz]

1 hour ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

 

Since we're on the pronouns thing; I won't do it for the simple reason that i don't need to participate in how an individual "wants" to be, and i know when i say that i cause a few people to be upset with me. I'm fully aware of that. I also hope those same people are aware of what i said before; I support your right to be whoever you want to be, just don't force me into it. I draw the line at that. I won't say silly things like the "brainwash camps" because that isn't helping anyone.

That's a garbage ass mentality. Is it really that hard to just respect what someone prefers to be called as? 

[Bree Giffen]

This is an-

Appeal to ridicule (reductio ad ridiculum, reductio ad absurdum, ad absurdum) – mocking or stating that the opponent's position is laughable to deflect from the merits of the opponent's argument. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I always forget whether to say transgender or transgendered. The latter is making the person a bit into a 'thing'.  I wish I could stop mixing them up on forums but it happens. So far people have been nice...even more than nice, like "oh no worries".

Never use "transgendered". 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, MalibuBratz said:

Is it really that hard to just respect what someone prefers to be called as? 

Not in the slightest. I do it on a regular basis. 

I always warn new friends that my memory sucks beyond belief, so if I drop a "she" or "he" based on avatar presentation vs. their preference (most of the people I know change genders like clothes in SL so things do tend to get wildly confusing, lol), they've got my full permission to kick my booty across the sim and I'll apologize immediately. Older friends have had that permission for years. Using everyone's preferred pronouns is pretty much second nature these days.

Easy as pie for me, even with a terrible memory.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

This is an-

Appeal to ridicule (reductio ad ridiculum, reductio ad absurdum, ad absurdum) – mocking or stating that the opponent's position is laughable to deflect from the merits of the opponent's argument. 

I love how y'all are giving the technical logical fallacies, etc. I don't recall any thread with so many!

[Sukubia Scarmon]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I know these Guru's.

Context is everything, and I think Love's explanation could have used a bit of filling out.

It's like this...I may be having some troubles in the day...a few things not going quite right....and it's easy to get sunk with it.  If I remember, hey, it could be much, much worse...at least I've got my own little house here so I'm not thrown into the street like a homeless person...and I have money to pay the heat costs....and I'm not going to bed hungry like 25% of the children in America....on and on...I instantly feel better then...I feel gratitude.

I do get what you mean - I have a grattitude journal, where I practised that, even tho I've already done so befor I got that, but not as.. mindfull, if that'd be the right word.
There is a difference, tho, in being grateful for not having it as bad as it could be because you came to that conclusion yourself, and being told to be grateful for not having it as bad as it could be by others. The later is invalidating someone elses feelings, while the former is transforming their own feelings.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/8/2022 at 1:59 AM, CherriesMakes Puddles said:

I am looking for information in regards to self identifying as non-binary, and what LL would do if one is harassed for doing this? 

Unlike some social media, you are not compelled to put any gender or any sort of identification on your profile. So put what you want. If someone harasses you or discriminates against you on that basis, you can try to Abuse Report it. This can be a very frustrating experience as most ARs don't go anywhere. There are 10 staff on Governance and speech violations are only one that they might address, and not evenly. If you try to protest on the forums using specific names, you will be warned or even banned, you can't criticize specific persons or companies (which I see as one of the chief problems in trying to address legitimate harassment, theft, and many other "crimes" of SL). So you can try using outside social media. But ultimately, you should try to use the tools given to mute/block/ban those who don't allow you to enjoy a second life.

[Solo Alpha]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Excepting the idiocy about "re-education camps" of course. 🙄

Thank you.

The idiocy lies within the, deliberate, misinterpretation of said post. 

 

Why were the boys send to camp in the first place ?

Why did Mr. Garisson act the way he did ? 

Thank you.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

The idiocy lies within the, deliberate, misinterpretation of said post. 

No, that would taking anyone citing South Park seriously.

Make your own points. In your own words.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

35 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

The idiocy lies within the, deliberate, misinterpretation of said post. 

 

Why were the boys send to camp in the first place ?

Why did Mr. Garisson act the way he did ? 

Thank you.

You can't be serious. You're pointing to what happened in a over-the-top satirical cartoon to make your point?

What next? An earnest discussion about how the English really shouldn't eat Irish children?

[Codex Alpha]

9 hours ago, Bitterthorn said:

"Hi. I would like some basic human rights and decency, please."

"Oh so you mean you want to force people into camps and brainwash them!?"

I'm so tired of this. Tired of this argument. It's not an argument at all. It's an insane strawman with 0 basis in reality.

In short, your rights end where my rights begin. There's no need to confuse what's going on.

Simply put, if one party is IMPOSING their will on the other party, in any way, they have gone out of their jurisdiction and is now trampling on that other person's rights.

This means I can address you or anyone else as I see fit, at my discretion, and as my respect for that person grows or wilts - and continued attempts to compel my speech, coerce my behaviour, or threaten the use of force from any authoritarian source is just going to demonstrate how you continue to attempt to impose your will on others for your own satisfaction.

If I don't call you a proper pronoun, or mr, or sir, or ma'am or madam or whatever - or choose to not participate at all, it is my perogative and personal right to do so. At best you may consider me rude, and feel like you would like to block or ignore me.

Feel free, that is your right.

Amazingly I haven't imposed my will on others just doing what I do in life, but I'm more and more and more these days been subjected to what others want to impose upon me, wield against me and even worse to ensure their 'safe space', their emotional well-being or w/e else they need. And THAT is not fair, and THAT is not in their right.

If we were to create a safe space for everyone, where no one would ever get offended, or ever get their feelings hurt, or get subjected to anyone be rude or uncouth - no person would ever be allowed to speak ever again.

Imagine how much of a good life you have in the West, or any other country, where your only problem that upsets you is if someone calls you a pronoun  you prefer.

Bullets and knifes hurt people, words do not unless they have some truth to them, where then you can use it to self-assess why it bothers you so much so you can improve yourself.

1970: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"

2020: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will utterly destroy me and I must be protected from them at all costs"

[cunomar]

Great attempt to explain "live and let live" though i'm 100% sure it will be willfully misinterpreted  .

[Solo Alpha]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You can't be serious. You're pointing to what happened in a over-the-top satirical cartoon to make your point?

What next? An earnest discussion about how the English really shouldn't eat Irish children?

Answer my questions first about the cartoon to discuss the ridicule displayed there and the ridiculousness here. Because that is all this has become. Satire.

I doubt you'll actually want to discuss.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Solo Alpha]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No, that would taking anyone citing South Park seriously.

Make your own points. In your own words.

Why make my own analogies when it' s already laid out perfectly in said episode ? 

It's not supposed to be taken seriously, just like you crying out bloody murder every  time your perceived identity is not acknowledged by law. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Solar Legion]

Well, it was only a matter of time before the Bingo Card/Trifeca was completed ...

[InnerCity Elf]

I may be grossly mistaken, but my impression of SL always was that, in any possible way, there are so many more non-standard than standard people (for the lack of better terms), and that its whole population should probably be well aware of or better remember the sitting in a glasshouse thing, before throwing any kind of stone.

Thus, the thought of someone fearing harassment due to being or identifying as non-binary in SL of all places, as well as someone harassing due to it, seems almost surrealist to me. On the other hand, I don't doubt that there still are enough idiots to harass someone for this kind of thing. Good thing that the virtual gods gave their populace the block and report functions.

[Sukubia Scarmon]

2 hours ago, entity0x said:

Bullets and knifes hurt people, words do not unless they have some truth to them, where then you can use it to self-assess why it bothers you so much so you can improve yourself.

1970: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"

2020: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will utterly destroy me and I must be protected from them at all costs"

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, entity0x said:

In short, your rights end where my rights begin. There's no need to confuse what's going on.

Simply put, if one party is IMPOSING their will on the other party, in any way, they have gone out of their jurisdiction and is now trampling on that other person's rights.

This means I can address you or anyone else as I see fit, at my discretion, and as my respect for that person grows or wilts - and continued attempts to compel my speech, coerce my behaviour, or threaten the use of force from any authoritarian source is just going to demonstrate how you continue to attempt to impose your will on others for your own satisfaction.

If I don't call you a proper pronoun, or mr, or sir, or ma'am or madam or whatever - or choose to not participate at all, it is my perogative and personal right to do so. At best you may consider me rude, and feel like you would like to block or ignore me.

Feel free, that is your right.

Amazingly I haven't imposed my will on others just doing what I do in life, but I'm more and more and more these days been subjected to what others want to impose upon me, wield against me and even worse to ensure their 'safe space', their emotional well-being or w/e else they need. And THAT is not fair, and THAT is not in their right.

If we were to create a safe space for everyone, where no one would ever get offended, or ever get their feelings hurt, or get subjected to anyone be rude or uncouth - no person would ever be allowed to speak ever again.

Imagine how much of a good life you have in the West, or any other country, where your only problem that upsets you is if someone calls you a pronoun  you prefer.

Bullets and knifes hurt people, words do not unless they have some truth to them, where then you can use it to self-assess why it bothers you so much so you can improve yourself.

1970: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"

2020: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will utterly destroy me and I must be protected from them at all costs"

 

This is one of those times when the ability to read someone's post history on the forum is quite interesting and informative.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, entity0x said:

This means I can address you or anyone else as I see fit, at my discretion, and as my respect for that person grows or wilts - and continued attempts to compel my speech, coerce my behaviour, or threaten the use of force from any authoritarian source is just going to demonstrate how you continue to attempt to impose your will on others for your own satisfaction.

Ok then, honey.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Meccha Suki said:

 

I may be grossly mistaken, but my impression of SL always was that, in any possible way, there are so many more non-standard than standard people (for the lack of better terms), and that its whole population should probably be well aware of or better remember the sitting in a glasshouse thing, before throwing any kind of stone.

 

Yes, that explains why the self-described "normal" people - I assume white and heterosexual and cisgender - are so triggered. That poor, suffering, minority (in SL) just can't handle being challenged (or so it appears). I hope they don't..cancel.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think it might help to try and keep in mind that, barring the most obvious physical differences, a lot of what passes as male vs female has been constructed by society.  For example...to one extreme we have a person who presents as a hyper female who wears lots of make-up, shows a lot of skin, stands in a less definitive way (is a bit more loose with their walk and mannerisms).  Much of this was developed through socialization by the society a person grew up in, and could easily be changed.

I'm reminded that when I was in college - in the 80's, with long hair and earrings, young people once confronted me with, "are you a man or a woman?!" Simply based on hairstyle and having both ears pierced, and also having some facial hair. That was truly bizarre.
 

 

 

 

[Dragon Mommy]

5 hours ago, entity0x said:

In short, your rights end where my rights begin. There's no need to confuse what's going on.

Simply put, if one party is IMPOSING their will on the other party, in any way, they have gone out of their jurisdiction and is now trampling on that other person's rights.

This means I can address you or anyone else as I see fit, at my discretion, and as my respect for that person grows or wilts - and continued attempts to compel my speech, coerce my behaviour, or threaten the use of force from any authoritarian source is just going to demonstrate how you continue to attempt to impose your will on others for your own satisfaction.

If I don't call you a proper pronoun, or mr, or sir, or ma'am or madam or whatever - or choose to not participate at all, it is my perogative and personal right to do so. At best you may consider me rude, and feel like you would like to block or ignore me.

Feel free, that is your right.

Amazingly I haven't imposed my will on others just doing what I do in life, but I'm more and more and more these days been subjected to what others want to impose upon me, wield against me and even worse to ensure their 'safe space', their emotional well-being or w/e else they need. And THAT is not fair, and THAT is not in their right.

If we were to create a safe space for everyone, where no one would ever get offended, or ever get their feelings hurt, or get subjected to anyone be rude or uncouth - no person would ever be allowed to speak ever again.

Imagine how much of a good life you have in the West, or any other country, where your only problem that upsets you is if someone calls you a pronoun  you prefer.

Bullets and knifes hurt people, words do not unless they have some truth to them, where then you can use it to self-assess why it bothers you so much so you can improve yourself.

1970: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"

2020: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will utterly destroy me and I must be protected from them at all costs"

My bingo card runnith over! I won't address your fallacies directly. I'll just make the following point; 

Somebody requesting to be treated decently is not someone taking away your rights. You can still choose to be a jerk, as you have signaled you would do. 

Social spaces, workplaces, private businesses, social groups, etc can all choose to enforce standards they agree upon. If part of that includes respecting people's chosen identities, you are free to choose other spaces to occupy. 

[Maitimo]

15 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Ok. I'm going to risk it all now. - Here's my take on this. I've said multiple times on these forums that i support and defend anyone's right to be whatever they want to be. But... It stops (for me) when my speech has to be altered.

It breaks my heart that there are still people in the world who still hold this attitude despite the wealth of information about trans people now available.

Deliberately refusing to alter one's speech - by exchanging pronouns - (its literally just one letter different, how difficult can that possibly be???) is the definition of NOT SUPPORTING and NOT DEFENDING and NOT ACCEPTING.

I will accept that people can make accidental mistakes - if you've known a person for 20 years then it's a habit that's difficult to break, but as long as you are TRYING to change, and succeed after a while, then that's okay. According to psychologists it takes 3 weeks to break a habit. But deliberately deciding not to even bother trying, that is the exact opposite of supportive.