Non-binary

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Since we're on the pronouns thing; I won't do it for the simple reason that i don't need to participate in how an individual "wants" to be, and i know when i say that i cause a few people to be upset with me. I'm fully aware of that. I also hope those same people are aware of what i said before; I support your right to be whoever you want to be, just don't force me into it. I draw the line at that. I won't say silly things like the "brainwash camps" because that isn't helping anyone.

Do you mind if we use whatever pronoun we want with you? It's the same thing. 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

In RL, no one has anything visible to.clue us in on gender pronoun preference.  If I see someone who outwardly appears female, of course I'd use she.  Now, if they blow up and get offended what am I to do besides apologize?  I didn't do it to be mean or harass in any way.

In SL, we do have the option of stating our gender pronoun in several ways.  However, not everyone pays attention to profiles.  Again, if I use the incorrect pronoun, it's not.out of malice but 50+ years of seeing males and females a certain way.  Do not jump down my throat if I've chosen the wrong one.  Inform me so I can use the correct one. 

I actually had this happen at work back in november of 2014/2015,   I made sure they understood I was not being disrespectful and in return I got "well you should of just known"   uhm, how does that work?  if I was not told the pronoun you wanted me to use,  then how am I to know? 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by bigmoe Whitfield
added the year to this.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

uhm, how does that work?  if I was not told the pronoun you wanted me to use,  then how am I to know? 

If in doubt, ask. "How do you like/want to be addressed?"

At my RL company, we were encouraged to put our pronouns in our email signatures more than a year ago.

[CaithLynnSayes]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do you mind if we use whatever pronoun we want with you? It's the same thing. 

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I just don't get it i guess.

2 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

If I tell you my name is Janice Smith and you call me by that name, then later I get married and it becomes Janis Porter, and you then call me by that name, congratulations. You're participating in validating my identity as someone who changed their name because they got married. 

It is no different in referring to someone by the pronouns they choose. If I told you I go by she/her and you continue to refer to me as he, because you 'feel' that's the right choice, you weren't supporting me in being who I want to be. You're actively choosing to apply your version of me.

And if you're immediate emotional reaction was to say that I should accept being called he/him... I'm a cis female. 

I don't think a name and a pronoun fall in the same category. But again, maybe it's a cultural thing i just don't get.

[Coffee Pancake]

8 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Since we're on the pronouns thing; I won't do it for the simple reason that i don't need to participate in how an individual "wants" to be, and i know when i say that i cause a few people to be upset with me. I'm fully aware of that. I also hope those same people are aware of what i said before; I support your right to be whoever you want to be, just don't force me into it. I draw the line at that. I won't say silly things like the "brainwash camps" because that isn't helping anyone.

If we met in person and you told me your preferred name was Burt, and you preferred whatever random pronouns, whatever you happened to look like on the day.

I'd be like "ok Burt !"

he/she/they .. all pretty common in my social circle.

If I don't know your preferred name or pronoun, I'm straight up going to guess out of habit .. which is why some people like to lead with that information.

If you're after some neo-pronoun (etc) goodness, then I'm likely to ask for examples, a little patience and some good humor before I get it right all the time

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do you mind if we use whatever pronoun we want with you? It's the same thing. 

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I just don't get it i guess.

Sounds legit. That's a major step. 
Anyway, it will get easier.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If in doubt, ask. "How do you like/want to be addressed?"

At my RL company, we were encouraged to put our pronouns in our email signatures more than a year ago.

I worked in a busy factory with a heavy short staffage issue and the new person, they were in an unsafe area,  so I walked up and said "miss, could you please not stand there, you are in a crush zone"  and got laid into. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I worked in a busy factory with a heavy short staffage issue and the new person, they were in an unsafe area,  so I walked up and said "miss, could you please not stand there, you are in a crush zone"  and got laid into. 

You don't have to use gender at all when addressing someone directly in that example. For instance: "Excuse me, but [danger zone warning!]" 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You don't have to use gender at all when addressing someone directly in that example. For instance: "Excuse me, but [danger zone warning!]" 

mhm I'm very aware now,  It was a moment of get the person out of the zone to keep them from getting the squish.  This was almost 8 years ago. 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I worked in a busy factory with a heavy short staffage issue and the new person, they were in an unsafe area,  so I walked up and said "miss, could you please not stand there, you are in a crush zone"  and got laid into. 

Overreaction happens .. it's such a personal thing and transition is stupid hard. Getting accidentally misgendered just hurts & bombs self confidence back to zero. So much time effort and heartache and all for nothing.

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I worked in a busy factory with a heavy short staffage issue and the new person, they were in an unsafe area,  so I walked up and said "miss, could you please not stand there, you are in a crush zone"  and got laid into. 

How did that affect your feelings about non-binary people now?  Do you have sympathy for them or do you feel negative toward all of them because of your difficult experience?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

32 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

The OP is looking for action before actual occurrence.

I don't see any proof of this. The way the question is worded is super vague to me. Perhaps on purpose, dunno. It's not a new account, so maybe something happened sometime prior that drove them off the first time. Or maybe not. We don't know.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Overreaction happens .. it's such a personal thing and transition is stupid hard. Getting accidentally misgendered just hurts & bombs self confidence back to zero. So much time effort and heartache and all for nothing.

after the moment I did that and get laid into, I made changes into how I address everyone,  I also helped make sure it was listed in our formal rules too,  as I'm not into hurting people and if I can prevent the hurt,  I will.   so now we have neutral terms listed and how to properly address people while on the production floor

[Sukubia Scarmon]

I will never understand that. It does neither hurt me or take away from me to adress a person with a pronoun they'd feel better about. The only thing I see, is that it makes someone else happy/feel better about themselves. 
I also believe that support means to acknowledge and respect someone for who they are. 
People don't chose to be born in the wrong body. Punishing someone for something they literaly had no control over sounds inherently cruel to me. 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

How did that affect your feelings about non-binary people now?  Do you have sympathy for them or do you feel negative toward all of them because of your difficult experience?

I made changes so I'm not hurting any one and helped the company also address the issues, so no one would be facing such again

[Luna Bliss]

I always forget whether to say transgender or transgendered. The latter is making the person a bit into a 'thing'.  I wish I could stop mixing them up on forums but it happens. So far people have been nice...even more than nice, like "oh no worries".

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I always forget whether to say transgender or transgendered.

transgendered implies something was done to the person to make them trans and robs them of their personal agency

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

If I tell you my name is Janice Smith and you call me by that name, then later I get married and it becomes Janis Porter, and you then call me by that name, congratulations. You're participating in validating my identity as someone who changed their name because they got married. 

It is no different in referring to someone by the pronouns they choose. If I told you I go by she/her and you continue to refer to me as he, because you 'feel' that's the right choice, you weren't supporting me in being who I want to be. You're actively choosing to apply your version of me.

And if you're immediate emotional reaction was to say that I should accept being called he/him... I'm a cis female. 

Pronouns are most often used when referring to you to a third party. If I am attempting to be clear to that party and they don't know either your name or that you do not identify as the gender you appear to be, the conversation can become confusing to the other. I've seen this happen. It is at that point questionable as to what degree it is your business as to how you are referred to. It is not a matter of respect in that case but one of clarity for the third party. Mostly though it is just a reminder not to talk in reference to someone not involved in the conversation.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I'm not sure if it is this one, or the previously posted logical fallacy..but in one of my Guru's favorite talks he says, "So you had a bad day. At least you didn't have your legs blown off! At least you didn't have to dodge machine gun fire in Iraq.", etc.  This keeps occurring to me in the context of the comparisons used in the posts here.  The difference is: comparing to the "worst case scenario" can be done in such a way to minimize our "bad day" without minimizing our overall concerns or state of being. That's how I saw it at least. In a positive light; he wouldn't say those things in response to the non-binary issues here, but instead to people whining about a "bad day".

What a horrid response to someone who has reached out and is in emotional and spiritual pain. Non-binary or not. Bad day or not. It belittles everyone and we all lose.

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I always forget whether to say transgender or transgendered.

transgendered implies something was done to the person to make them trans and robs them of their personal agency

It's a strange thing in my brain...I confuse words that are similar. Though I understand how the concepts differ between a transgender individual and someone we say is transgendered, my brain forgets which word goes where.  I've taken to repeating to myself "NOO, not the longer word".

[Silent Mistwalker]

22 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Overreaction happens .. it's such a personal thing and transition is stupid hard. Getting accidentally misgendered just hurts & bombs self confidence back to zero. So much time effort and heartache and all for nothing.

Except it isn't all for nothing. Progress is made. Even if it is baby steps. 🤗

[Luna Bliss]

13 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I'm not sure if it is this one, or the previously posted logical fallacy..but in one of my Guru's favorite talks he says, "So you had a bad day. At least you didn't have your legs blown off! At least you didn't have to dodge machine gun fire in Iraq.", etc.  This keeps occurring to me in the context of the comparisons used in the posts here.  The difference is: comparing to the "worst case scenario" can be done in such a way to minimize our "bad day" without minimizing our overall concerns or state of being. That's how I saw it at least. In a positive light; he wouldn't say those things in response to the non-binary issues here, but instead to people whining about a "bad day".

Expand  

What a horrid response to someone who has reached out and is in emotional and spiritual pain. Non-binary or not. Bad day or not. It belittles everyone and we all lose.

Well, I know these Guru's.

Context is everything, and I think Love's explanation could have used a bit of filling out.

It's like this...I may be having some troubles in the day...a few things not going quite right....and it's easy to get sunk with it.  If I remember, hey, it could be much, much worse...at least I've got my own little house here so I'm not thrown into the street like a homeless person...and I have money to pay the heat costs....and I'm not going to bed hungry like 25% of the children in America....on and on...I instantly feel better then...I feel gratitude.

[Silent Mistwalker]

18 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

transgendered implies something was done to the person to make them trans and robs them of their personal agency

 

 

 

I always thought it implied past tense. As another term for transitioned.

Conversations in my real life are so mundane.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

So, i'm from mainland Europe and over here we don't see this happen all too often so maybe that's why most of what you just said flew right over my head. Sorry.

Ok, so picture this: A person looks male or female. It's just nature, one or the two.

WHat happens when someone literally looks "male or female" - in other words, not one of the two?

[Maitimo]

40 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Do you mind if we use whatever pronoun we want with you? It's the same thing. 

Personally, that's exactly what I do prefer (though I think that it's an unusual stance).

In RL I choose to present almost totally male. I look male, I use a male name, I dress in stereotypically male clothing and everyone naturally uses he/him pronouns. And that's okay. In SL I "transitioned" from a male-presenting avatar, through an androgynous one, and now choose to present almost entirely feminine. Mostly these days, people use she/her pronouns for me, and that's okay too.

How I think of myself internally is somewhere inbetween these two extremes. neither fully he/him nor fully she/her, but somewhere on a spectrum of varying intensity, tempered by society's expectations and my responsibilities and the risks and challenges I'm willing to bear.  My gender identity is not a choice, but how I handle it and present it IS a choice, and if I were to become unhappy with the pronouns people were using for me, I can change the way I present in such a way that it guides others towards using the pronouns I prefer to hear.