Non-binary

[Luna Bliss]

Our bodies are the most fundamental aspect of who we are, forming our sense of identity at its most basic level.  When that is violated the resultant trauma experienced makes it difficult to cope for the rest of one's life.  It's worse when  the abuse happens earlier in life, and worse when there is no support to help process the emotions relating to the trauma.

[Solar Legion]

One more item on the bingo card ...

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

One more item on the bingo card ...

Whut, a Nazi reference or "reeducation" camps? 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Whut, a Nazi reference or "reeducation" camps? 

The genders are going to put conservatives in a reeducation / death camp arc of the white genocide fantasy, which itself stems from white supremacist propaganda.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

The genders are going to put conservatives in a reeducation / death camp arc of the white genocide fantasy, which itself stems from white supremacist propaganda.

 

That's ok, they can just cancel.

We'll still be here, riding rainbows.

[Bree Giffen]

This one is called - 

4) The False Dilemma Fallacy

This common fallacy misleads by presenting complex issues in terms of two inherently opposed sides. Instead of acknowledging that most (if not all) issues can be thought of on a spectrum of possibilities and stances, the false dilemma fallacy asserts that there are only two mutually exclusive outcomes.

This fallacy is particularly problematic because it can lend false credence to extreme stances, ignoring opportunities for compromise or chances to re-frame the issue in a new way.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

This one is called - 

4) The False Dilemma Fallacy

This common fallacy misleads by presenting complex issues in terms of two inherently opposed sides. Instead of acknowledging that most (if not all) issues can be thought of on a spectrum of possibilities and stances, the false dilemma fallacy asserts that there are only two mutually exclusive outcomes.

This fallacy is particularly problematic because it can lend false credence to extreme stances, ignoring opportunities for compromise or chances to re-frame the issue in a new way.

I'm not sure if it is this one, or the previously posted logical fallacy..but in one of my Guru's favorite talks he says, "So you had a bad day. At least you didn't have your legs blown off! At least you didn't have to dodge machine gun fire in Iraq.", etc.  This keeps occurring to me in the context of the comparisons used in the posts here.  The difference is: comparing to the "worst case scenario" can be done in such a way to minimize our "bad day" without minimizing our overall concerns or state of being. That's how I saw it at least. In a positive light; he wouldn't say those things in response to the non-binary issues here, but instead to people whining about a "bad day".

[Coffee Pancake]

If anything I think it's more your basic strawman. No one is ever going to a reeducation camp because a tiny number of trans teens got to use different pronouns, or gay people were able to just get on with their lives and throw the occasional rainbow party.

LGBTQ+ people exist. Granting them equal protections, access to services and respecting their personal identity is pretty basic decency.

[CaithLynnSayes]

On 4/8/2022 at 7:59 AM, CherriesMakes Puddles said:

I am looking for information in regards to self identifying as non-binary, and what LL would do if one is harassed for doing this? 

A thing called the "mute/block" button...?

 

I'm sorry but i have to do this right here for a second. How is this simple action not a natural reflex? This morning i logged in just before going to work to find an offline IM with the words "hey "prosti**** (non-family friendly word) And when i looked at the profile it was simply bonkers. So, i muted the account and, (here's the kicker) i moved on... How is this not the default reaction? Not only in SL but on the Internet in itself? It is baffling to me.

For me it's very simple. Be who you want to be. Identify as whatever makes you feel good. I support your right to that and will defend you till the end for it. But "what would LL do if one is harassed"? - You mute, you move on. That simple.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If anything I think it's more your basic strawman. No one is ever going to a reeducation camp because a tiny number of trans teens got to use different pronouns, or gay people were able to just get on with their lives and throw the occasional rainbow party.

LGBTQ+ people exist. Granting them equal protections, access to services and respecting their personal identity is pretty basic decency.

Speaking of pronouns.. how hard is it, really, to just say "they"? (I mean, as a non-binary pronoun.) This will all seem so much more stupid in a few short years.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

A thing called the "mute/block" button...?

Only works in the context of a lone individual, not a systemic attack on our existence. We don't need people to just ignore and move on, we need active help.

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Speaking of pronouns.. how hard is it, really, to just say "they"? This will all seem so much more stupid in a few short years.

It's been standard English forever - I'm expecting a delivery.. when are they due?

[CaithLynnSayes]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

6 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

A thing called the "mute/block" button...?

Only works in the context of a lone individual, not a systemic attack on our existence. We don't need people to just ignore and move on, we need active help.

Active help in what form? I don't mean to be bold, but how would you accomplish a solution to that? Ignoring is the best poison to a bully or even multiple bullies. And if someone is targeted by multiple individuals, you can report those, right? LL does do something about that, right?

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Only works in the context of a lone individual, not a systemic attack on our existence. We don't need people to just ignore and move on, we need active help.

It's been standard English forever - I'm expecting a delivery.. when are they due?

It's like "y'all" and "vosotros" (Spanish).

[CaithLynnSayes]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Speaking of pronouns.. how hard is it, really, to just say "they"? (I mean, as a non-binary pronoun.) This will all seem so much more stupid in a few short years.

Ok. I'm going to risk it all now. - Here's my take on this. I've said multiple times on these forums that i support and defend anyone's right to be whatever they want to be. But... It stops (for me) when my speech has to be altered. I could quote a comedian who recently caused a lot of hoopla on Netflix, but i won't.

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Active help in what form? I don't mean to be bold, but how would you accomplish a solution to that? Ignoring is the best poison to a bully or even multiple bullies.

Social rejection and deplatforming are the only tools that work, this is the crux of claims decrying cancel culture. 

In SL terms, getting the bully (and supporters) removed from the location is the only immediate way to resolve the issue. If they carry on in IM or escalate further then you just have to hope LL will step in when reported.

7 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

And if someone is targeted by multiple individuals, you can report those, right? LL does do something about that, right?

In my experience, no, they actually don't.

1 minute ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Ok. I'm going to risk it all now. - Here's my take on this. I've said multiple times on these forums that i support and defend anyone's right to be whatever they want to be. But... It stops (for me) when my speech has to be altered. I could quote a comedian who recently caused a lot of hoopla on Netflix, but i won't.

I just use that same argument to refer to you with the wrong pronouns, pretty sure that would be upsetting.

• That's a cute baby girl!
• Oh, it's a boy!
• Oh sorry, he's so handsome.

Speech altered and no offense occurred.

It's only offensive if you follow up with

• Well, I think she's pretty.

[Rowan Amore]

In RL, no one has anything visible to.clue us in on gender pronoun preference.  If I see someone who outwardly appears female, of course I'd use she.  Now, if they blow up and get offended what am I to do besides apologize?  I didn't do it to be mean or harass in any way.

In SL, we do have the option of stating our gender pronoun in several ways.  However, not everyone pays attention to profiles.  Again, if I use the incorrect pronoun, it's not.out of malice but 50+ years of seeing males and females a certain way.  Do not jump down my throat if I've chosen the wrong one.  Inform me so I can use the correct one. 

[Solo Alpha]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's only offensive if you follow up with

• Well, I think she's pretty.

So offensive there should be laws against this ? How about sending a person to a facility to 'train' them to a correct answer ? 

I however learned to ignore crybabies : eventhough loud they are not those suffering the most and do not require immediate attention to their every whim.

The OP is looking for action before actual occurrence. Percieved harassment is not actual harassment in many cases. I doubt LL will remain inactive if a viable case is applied to them. No matter if this in regard to cis, non-binaries or whatever identity one can come up with.

[CaithLynnSayes]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Social rejection and deplatforming are the only tools that work, this is the crux of claims decrying cancel culture. 

In SL terms, getting the bully (and supporters) removed from the location is the only immediate way to resolve the issue. If they carry on in IM or escalate further then you just have to hope LL will step in when reported.

In my experience, no, they actually don't.

I just use that same argument to refer to you with the wrong pronouns, pretty sure that would be upsetting.

• That's a cute baby girl!
• Oh, it's a boy!
• Oh sorry, he's so handsome.

Speech altered and no offense occurred.

It's only offensive if you follow up with

• Well, I think she's pretty.

So, i'm from mainland Europe and over here we don't see this happen all too often so maybe that's why most of what you just said flew right over my head. Sorry.

Ok, so picture this: A person looks male or female. It's just nature, one or the two. Another person not knowing that person is identifying as non-binary will put them in the male or female box depending on what they look like. It's human nature. What i'm trying to say is that for an outsider it's not easy to follow with this. I don't mean this to be demeaning in any way. I'm just speaking my mind in this subject.

As @Love Zhaoying said, "how hard is it to use "they". Probably not, but if my brain sees what looks like a female, i'm going to call that person she/her, simply out of habit.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Solo Alpha said:

So offensive there should be laws against this ? How about sending a person to a facility to 'train' them to a correct answer ? 

seriously, this is not a thing and will never be a thing

You're worried about monsters under the bed.

 

[CaithLynnSayes]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

7 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

So offensive there should be laws against this ? How about sending a person to a facility to 'train' them to a correct answer ? 

seriously, this is not a thing and will never be a thing

You're worried about monsters under the bed.

This one may not age well.... https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/09/29/teacher-fired-for-using-wrong-pronoun-for-student-discusses-ongoing-legal-case/

Edited April 12, 2022 by CaithLynnSayes

[Dragon Mommy]

"Hi. I would like some basic human rights and decency, please."

"Oh so you mean you want to force people into camps and brainwash them!?"

I'm so tired of this. Tired of this argument. It's not an argument at all. It's an insane strawman with 0 basis in reality.

[Coffee Pancake]

10 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

As @Love Zhaoying said, "how hard is it to use "they". Probably not, but if my brain sees what looks like a female, i'm going to call that person she/her, simply out of habit.

They in response to an individual face to face is uncommon in typical usage.

It's never going to become common, because there genuinely aren't that many people who wish neutral pronouns.

If on the off chance you meet someone with a preference, it's not more hardship to use they than if you were told their preferred name wasn't what documentation might say .. Eg, my father's name is Burt Steven Lastname (it's not, but the example is real), he doesn't like Burt and is widely known as Steven.

No one likes making mistakes, and using they in conversation in place of she/he can cause people to stumble initially. No one is being judged for the stumble.

7 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

This one may not age well.... https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/09/29/teacher-fired-for-using-wrong-pronoun-for-student-discusses-ongoing-legal-case/

Intentionally misgendering a student, if that goes against established work place policy, is grounds for dismissal. He knew that was the case and did so to "make a point". Intent matters.

If a racist refused service to someone in their place of work, should they be allowed to continue with that organizations implied endorsement? Does it even matter what title that employee held?

[CaithLynnSayes]

2 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

"Hi. I would like some basic human rights and decency, please."

Totally agree with that.

2 minutes ago, Bitterthorn said:

"Oh so you mean you want to force people into camps and brainwash them!?"

That's the reaction of a 5 year old and should be ignored.

-----------------------------------------

Since we're on the pronouns thing; I won't do it for the simple reason that i don't need to participate in how an individual "wants" to be, and i know when i say that i cause a few people to be upset with me. I'm fully aware of that. I also hope those same people are aware of what i said before; I support your right to be whoever you want to be, just don't force me into it. I draw the line at that. I won't say silly things like the "brainwash camps" because that isn't helping anyone.

[Love Zhaoying]

30 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I just use that same argument to refer to you with the wrong pronouns, pretty sure that would be upsetting.

• That's a cute baby girl!
• Oh, it's a boy!
• Oh sorry, he's so handsome.

Speech altered and no offense occurred.

It's only offensive if you follow up with

• Well, I think she's pretty.

"Pronouns are hard!"

Literally, "Don't tell me what to say". 
At least we're not "making" people use "Mx" yet!

[Dragon Mommy]

2 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Totally agree with that.

That's the reaction of a 5 year old and should be ignored.

-----------------------------------------

Since we're on the pronouns thing; I won't do it for the simple reason that i don't need to participate in how an individual "wants" to be, and i know when i say that i cause a few people to be upset with me. I'm fully aware of that. I also hope those same people are aware of what i said before; I support your right to be whoever you want to be, just don't force me into it. I draw the line at that. I won't say silly things like the "brainwash camps" because that isn't helping anyone.

If I tell you my name is Janice Smith and you call me by that name, then later I get married and it becomes Janis Porter, and you then call me by that name, congratulations. You're participating in validating my identity as someone who changed their name because they got married. 

It is no different in referring to someone by the pronouns they choose. If I told you I go by she/her and you continue to refer to me as he, because you 'feel' that's the right choice, you weren't supporting me in being who I want to be. You're actively choosing to apply your version of me.

And if you're immediate emotional reaction was to say that I should accept being called he/him... I'm a cis female.