Non-binary

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 hours ago, Maitimo said:

It breaks my heart that there are still people in the world who still hold this attitude despite the wealth of information about trans people now available.

It's sad. Just thinking about all of the wonderful people I would've never gotten to know had I pointlessly flailed around over something so trivial. Would've missed out on so much, honestly. 

I learn pronouns at the very beginning, if necessary (if they're different than what the avie presents as). If someone confides in me months (or longer) into a friendship and pronouns change, I'm on it. I'll make a mental note, I'll forget, I'll get yeeted across the sim (kidding, mostly), I'll apologize, and a few days later it's second nature. Done. Seriously no big deal. Took more effort to write this post than it does to make such a minor (on my part) change.

 

7 hours ago, entity0x said:

This means I can address you or anyone else as I see fit, at my discretion

Hi pancakes7y! 😊

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 hours ago, entity0x said:

Amazingly I haven't imposed my will on others just doing what I do in life, but I'm more and more and more these days been subjected to what others want to impose upon me, wield against me and even worse to ensure their 'safe space', their emotional well-being or w/e else they need. And THAT is not fair, and THAT is not in their right.

What is amazing is you believe your own bs.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 hours ago, Solo Alpha said:

Answer my questions first about the cartoon to discuss the ridicule displayed there and the ridiculousness here. Because that is all this has become. Satire.

I doubt you'll actually want to discuss.

Hey, I'm totally up for a discussion of the rhetorical and polemical function of satire! I literally teach it! It's a fascinating subject, and, well, clearly you could use some guidance on how it works and what it does.

But not here. Not in this context. I am not going to dignify the suggestion that a series of grotesque exaggerations and caricatures has any actual bearing on the facts of the issues that are being discussed here.

No one is threatening to send you to a "tolerance camp," Solo.

They are asking you -- asking you -- to be kind, considerate, and generous.

And if you can't handle that, then, really, I don't think there's much point in continuing the conversation anyway.

[Luna Bliss]

16 hours ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

18 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I know these Guru's.

Context is everything, and I think Love's explanation could have used a bit of filling out.

It's like this...I may be having some troubles in the day...a few things not going quite right....and it's easy to get sunk with it.  If I remember, hey, it could be much, much worse...at least I've got my own little house here so I'm not thrown into the street like a homeless person...and I have money to pay the heat costs....and I'm not going to bed hungry like 25% of the children in America....on and on...I instantly feel better then...I feel gratitude.

I do get what you mean - I have a grattitude journal, where I practised that, even tho I've already done so befor I got that, but not as.. mindfull, if that'd be the right word.
There is a difference, tho, in being grateful for not having it as bad as it could be because you came to that conclusion yourself, and being told to be grateful for not having it as bad as it could be by others. The later is invalidating someone elses feelings, while the former is transforming their own feelings.

Focusing on gratitude is a amazing tool to change one's mood indeed! I might get back to my gratitude journal, but so far I seem to do okay just winging it (remembering to think of what I HAVE instead of what I don't have -- glass half full instead of glass half empty kind of thing).

I agree with your point here about the need to maintain the right to transform one's own feelings vs being pressured by others to do so. One of my major pet peeves is how people often don't respond appropriately to someone else in pain. Often we see an attempt at invalidation, or at the very least minimization of their feelings, revealing a gross lack of empathy. Telling someone there are other people in more pain when when they personally come to you for emotional support regarding a difficult situation is one such example.

However, we need to make a distinction between people relating to each other personally vs a guru or teacher lecturing to a group on the topic of pain and how best to deal with it, in a more abstract manner. There's nothing wrong with a guru or teacher doing that (we sign up for it really, by seeking advice on various matters and attending that lecture), and this is how I took Love's description of the event (a lecture vs approaching a teacher personally in the hopes of receiving emotional support).
Even on a personal level sometimes a counselor or teacher might try to encourage a student or client to look on the brighter side if they feel their student has become stuck in their pain and lost perspective. But this needs to be approached carefully by someone who has intimate knowledge of the person they're attempting to help.

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Maitimo said:

19 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Ok. I'm going to risk it all now. - Here's my take on this. I've said multiple times on these forums that i support and defend anyone's right to be whatever they want to be. But... It stops (for me) when my speech has to be altered.

It breaks my heart that there are still people in the world who still hold this attitude despite the wealth of information about trans people now available.

Deliberately refusing to alter one's speech - by exchanging pronouns - (its literally just one letter different, how difficult can that possibly be???) is the definition of NOT SUPPORTING and NOT DEFENDING and NOT ACCEPTING.

I will accept that people can make accidental mistakes - if you've known a person for 20 years then it's a habit that's difficult to break, but as long as you are TRYING to change, and succeed after a while, then that's okay. According to psychologists it takes 3 weeks to break a habit. But deliberately deciding not to even bother trying, that is the exact opposite of supportive.

Sometimes I wish I could magically inject empathy into others...lol. Suddenly, in a supernatural flash they'd have watched movies like Boys Don't Cry which demonstrates the pain of those being forced to endure a society that insists on clear gender differentiation, and read all the news reports revealing the murders of LGBTQ+ people by creeps who can't accept diversity, and read all the Psychology and research describing the pain people who are different from the norm go through in a world that demands conformity, and read all the personal descriptions (some on this forum) describing how one can feel so bad when they don't fit into this world that they consider ending their life, or even do commit suicide in some cases.

I can't, for the life of me, understand why becoming aware of just a FRACTION of the above, one would choose their right to use a certain word as more important.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Hey, I'm totally up for a discussion of the rhetorical and polemical function of satire!

Never did care for polenta, myself.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 hours ago, Solo Alpha said:

Because that is all this has become. Satire.

No, something has not "become satire" merely because you say it has. The people in this thread trying to "educate" are being honest, and providing truthful and helpful information.

Perhaps your responses have been satire, and those who are arguing against the good information provided.

[Solo Alpha]

15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

No, something has not "become satire" merely because you say it has. The people in this thread trying to "educate" are being honest, and providing truthful and helpful information.

Perhaps your responses have been satire, and those who are arguing against the good information provided.

I never claimed to define satire for others. It was a subjective statement.

People in this thread are not being that honest. They are being oversensitive, brass, ill-concluded and dodgy when confronted with the irony that repitition of their demand superceeds the needs of those in direct dire conditions like warzones.

Even to the point where an actual known transgender in this forum is simply waved off by those who are not.

All because the OP merely informed if there' s a direct consequence by LL in a possible case of being harassed when expressing themselves as non-binary.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Solo Alpha

[Codex Alpha]

4 hours ago, Bitterthorn said:

My bingo card runnith over! I won't address your fallacies directly. I'll just make the following point; 

Somebody requesting to be treated decently is not someone taking away your rights. You can still choose to be a jerk, as you have signaled you would do. 

Social spaces, workplaces, private businesses, social groups, etc can all choose to enforce standards they agree upon. If part of that includes respecting people's chosen identities, you are free to choose other spaces to occupy. 

I won't address your fallacies directly.

I wouldn't expect you would want to. Most people seem to just be triggered by one word or three word phrase in the whole of a statement, then address it out of context, or simply make accusations as to the intent of that person, rather than responding to the ideas presented - whether you agree or disagree - and most importantly, why. Discussion is for learning, not 'winning'.

Somebody requesting to be treated decently is not someone taking away your rights.

1) Never said it did, as a request is not an imposition of force, coercion or threat upon someone else.

2) I can grant that request, or I can say "no", that is my right. Also, it's not illegal to be  rude (yet but soon), but that's all it would be: rude (negative trait) or assertive (positive trait)

3) However, if a 'request' is really not a request, but a demand or command, and that person wants to call an authority to impose use of force on that person, than it is just a lie and threat masquerading as a request.

You can still choose to be a jerk, as you have signaled you would do. 

That's not very nice, and very assumptive. Just because I disagree with another person, or refuse to be manipulated by other people, or want their fears imposed upon me through denial of my fundamental rights, doesn't mean I don't understand their fear - can be courteous and respectful of that regardless - and accommodate them somewhat. I thought I clearly stated that I draw the line at when someone starts to IMPOSE upon me, and is more than just a 'request'.

No one has to agree with me. That's the best part. You don't have to agree, and I don't have to agree with you. All both parties should be trying to do is to UNDERSTAND where the other person is coming from - and I do with all these issues. I just don't agree sometimes, and it's okay.

Social spaces, workplaces, private businesses, social groups, etc can all choose to enforce standards they agree upon. If part of that includes respecting people's chosen identities, you are free to choose other spaces to occupy.

Sure, anyone can do anything they want, as long as they're not imposing their will upon others to do it. Once again, this is the essence of human rights and dignity: yours, mine and everyone else's.

Please understand that the standards you require of others, the rights you uphold or deny others, will inevitably be applied to you at some point. If you don't want to be excluded for your views or other, then you should not exclude others for theirs.

I don't see where you disagree in your reply, sorry - so not sure why you post it like you disagree lol.

Edited April 13, 2022 by entity0x

[Solo Alpha]

36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No one is threatening to send you to a "tolerance camp," Solo.

Again ... the SP EPISODE ( hence the picture ) portrays consequences in a ridiculous humorous way of ENFORCED TOLERANCE. That was the point of the reference. Not what everybody else beside me tries to make of it.

40 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

They are asking you -- asking you -- to be kind, considerate, and generous.

 That is not how the thread started off. The OP informed for DIRECT consequence when harassed. 

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And if you can't handle that, then, really, I don't think there's much point in continuing the conversation anyway.

I can handle much more than you hold me capable of. 

[Coffee Pancake]

Tolerance does not extend to the intolerant.

[Luna Bliss]

29 minutes ago, Solo Alpha said:

People in this thread are not being that honest. They are being oversensitive, brass, ill-concluded and dodgy when confronted with the irony that repitition of their demand superceeds the needs of those in direct dire conditions like warzones.

This is a thread about non-binary individuals. It's not a thread about warzones or Ukraine. Should I post in every thread currently on the forum that we should include Ukraine in whatever is being discussed, and accuse those concerned about whatEVER they're discussing that if they do not include warzones and Ukraine they are placing too much value in their chosen topic? If that would be inappropriate for other threads, then why would it not be inappropriate for this thread? 

Clearly,  by this bizarre accusation an attempt is being made to minimize the severity of the issues being discussed here, on this thread. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

This is a thread about non-binary individuals. It's not a thread about warzones or Ukraine. Should I post in every thread currently on the forum that we should include Ukraine in whatever is being discussed, and accuse those concerned about whatEVER they're discussing that if they do not include warzones and Ukraine they are placing too much value in their chosen topic? If that would be inappropriate for other threads, then why would it not be inappropriate for this thread? 

Clearly, but this bizarre accusation an attempt is being made to minimize the severity of the issues being discussed here, on this thread. 

They are here to try and shut down and derail the conversation because the mere existence of other people offends them. They have no skin in the game, are not affected or impacted in anyway, but are so incensed they need to join the conversation regardless.

You could say they have been "triggered".

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

They are here to try and shut down and derail the conversation because the mere existence of other people offends them. They have no skin in the game, are not affected or impacted in anyway, but are so incensed they need to join the conversation regardless.

You could say they have been "triggered".

Oh Coffee, you have give me my first belly laugh of the day.  I am healed!   

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Still wondering how a simple "how does LL handle harassment?" question has set off all this.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Still wondering how a simple "how does LL handle harassment?" question has set off all this.

 

Because we're here?

[Arielle Popstar]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes, that explains why the self-described "normal" people - I assume white and heterosexual and cisgender - are so triggered. That poor, suffering, minority (in SL) just can't handle being challenged (or so it appears). I hope they don't..cancel.

We get into the glass houses and stones when racist and bigoted rhetoric starts getting tossed about. Maybe just me but seems counterproductive to getting respect for a desired pronoun when one trashes all white heterosexuals as if they are the only one not doing so. That assuming thing is the cause of many problems.

[Maitimo]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Still wondering how a simple "how does LL handle harassment?" question has set off all this.

Because trans and non-binary people exist, and a certain subset of the population would prefer that we didn't.

[Luna Bliss]

I can't stop laughing.  I'm scaring the cats.

[Bree Giffen]

17 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I love how y'all are giving the technical logical fallacies, etc. I don't recall any thread with so many!

Many threads here and throughout the internet are filled with arguments. Going by the second definition of an argument which is "a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong." I hope no one thinks pointing out a fallacy means I oppose them.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Maitimo said:

Because trans and non-binary people exist, and a certain subset of the population would prefer that we didn't.

Absolutely. I wasn't directing my Travolta at those defending the OP, of course. That I understand completely.

[Solo Alpha]

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You could say they have been "triggered".

Like you were triggered by the deathcamps ? 

Yeah, right ...

[Love Zhaoying]

27 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

We get into the glass houses and stones when racist and bigoted rhetoric starts getting tossed about. Maybe just me but seems counterproductive to getting respect for a desired pronoun when one trashes all white heterosexuals as if they are the only one not doing so. That assuming thing is the cause of many problems.

..all white hetereosexual cisgender people who are fighting against accepting non-binary people..not "all white people". 

You left that part out.

But, to be fair: I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, that I had met Trans people who did not believe in non-binary people.

So there.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Love Zhaoying
Edited to add "not 'all white people'"

[Maitimo]

I have some questions for those people in the thread who refuse to use the correct pronouns and/or names for trans and non-binary people for the reason that it's "too difficult" or "imposing their will on me".

Here's a hypothetical situation. You've been introduced to someone new at work who will be collaborating on a project with you. He says his name is John Lynn, and he has a local accent much like your own. You have only communicated with him by email and telephone so far.  Two weeks later you're in a face to face meeting with him and you can see quite clearly that he is of Chinese ethnicity. He tells you that his legal name is actually Song Lin Xhao, but he prefers to be called John because he feels more comfortable using an English name in Western society.  What do you call him now?  Is it now too difficult or too offensive to you to use an English name for him now that you've seen that he is obviously Chinese?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Maitimo

[Maitimo]

ugh ignore this I tried to correct an error and ended up duplicating it

Edited April 13, 2022 by Maitimo