Non-binary

[Rowan Amore]

22 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I can't really think of a case where anyone would want to run around using the incorrect pronouns for people - trans, non-binary, or not. 

I'm just going by your avatar here, but wouldn't it be super rude for someone in-world to call you "he" or "Sir?" If someone did that to you in a mean/insulting way (not just making a mistake) and I happened to be standing nearby, I'd defend you, too.

I actually get called "Sir" quite often by greeters at one D/s club.  They go by my name instead of looking at me.  Being called Sir doesn't bother so much as the fact they haven't even bothered to look at me.  I usually just say, "Sir?  Might want to take a look first".   I realize they're required at this club to greet people quickly but ffs, do I look like a Sir?  

I'm also black AND Irish.  I prefer to be called black and not African-American.  Or call me Irish-American?  Harder to tell by just looking at me though that I'm Irish.  Do I get upset when someone use the wrong description?  Not at all nor do I even bother to correct them at that point if they're a stranger.  I just don't care enough to bother.  Friends, yes I'd mention it.

[Arielle Popstar]

38 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Citation please.

ETA: Actually, let me save you time:

https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained

Good, I'm surprised you weren't aware of it or the Ontario Human Rights code policies on it.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Good, I'm surprised you weren't aware of it or the Ontario Human Rights code policies on it.

 

This, please:

Quote

What does the Ontario Human Rights Code say about gender issues?

Ontario added explicit protection for gender identity and gender expression to the Code in 2012. The Code prohibits discrimination and harassment against trans people in employment, services (including education, policing, health care, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.), housing, contracts and membership in vocational associations. The Code does not specify the use of any particular pronoun or other terminology.

And this
 

Quote

Refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity, or purposely misgendering, will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education. The law is otherwise unsettled as to whether someone can insist on any one gender-neutral pronoun in particular.

https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/questions-and-answers-about-gender-identity-and-pronouns

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This, please:

Quote

What does the Ontario Human Rights Code say about gender issues?

Ontario added explicit protection for gender identity and gender expression to the Code in 2012. The Code prohibits discrimination and harassment against trans people in employment, services (including education, policing, health care, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.), housing, contracts and membership in vocational associations. The Code does not specify the use of any particular pronoun or other terminology.

I suppose for some people, not being allowed to discriminate is the worst thing ever.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I actually get called "Sir" quite often by greeters at one D/s club.  They go by my name instead of looking at me.  Being called Sir doesn't bother so much as the fact they haven't even bothered to look at me.  I usually just say, "Sir?  Might want to take a look first".   I realize they're required at this club to greet people quickly but ffs, do I look like a Sir?  

I'm also black AND Irish.  I prefer to be called black and not African-American.  Or call me Irish-American?  Harder to tell by just looking at me though that I'm Irish.  Do I get upset when someone use the wrong description?  Not at all nor do I even bother to correct them at that point if they're a stranger.  I just don't care enough to bother.  Friends, yes I'd mention it.

I'd toss both of those in the mistake category (or just plain laziness, in the case of the first one. Lol you'd think they'd learn by now!).

But if someone is being super rude and harassing someone over their gender, race, appearance, choice of avatar, or any of that, that's more serious (and obnoxious). I'd encourage blocking and if the harassment escalated (via alts or something), filing an AR.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I suppose for some people, not being allowed to discriminate is the worst thing ever.

The only thing worse is getting called out for it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I suppose for some people, not being allowed to discriminate is the worst thing ever.

Sadly, yes.

And the key point here is that it is discrimination in the context of access to housing, social services, and so forth that is the issue -- not misgendering per se. If deliberately misgendering someone is not occurring in the context of discriminating against someone's access to these sorts of things, it is not covered by this bill.

So, you can cheerfully and freely be as insulting and obnoxious to people of trans identities as you want -- it's only if it is part of a large effort to block them from services, employment, education, and so forth, that it becomes an issue.

EXACTLY as if you were similarly denying someone access to these things on the basis of ethnicity or gender.

In addition, "discrimination" is not a criminal offense: no one is going to jail for this. What it does mean is that a denial of services on the basis of transphobic discrimination can by overturned by a human rights tribunal.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I suppose for some people, not being allowed to discriminate is the worst thing ever.

The only thing worse is getting called out for it.

[Lewis Luminos]

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I always forget whether to say transgender or transgendered. The latter is making the person a bit into a 'thing'.  I wish I could stop mixing them up on forums but it happens. So far people have been nice...even more than nice, like "oh no worries".

It's easier if you can remember that it's an adjective, a descriptive word. "Transgendered" would be an adverb meaning that they've had  transgendering done to them, or some such nonsense. (It can't be right because transgender isn't a verb either). Also calling a group of transgender people "transgenders" is wrong because that makes it a noun.

If you find it hard to remember, try substituting the word "tall" in place of "transgender" and see how your sentence goes. If it still sounds right, then you're using it right. 

20 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

WHat happens when someone literally looks "male or female" - in other words, not one of the two?

I lived that nightmare for years, the few years before I started transition and up to around 18 months into it. Only after that did I look sufficiently male that it stopped. I tried to be non-binary during that time but that was just as uncomfortable to me as it was trying to be female and it was an immense relief when it was all over.

1 hour ago, Maitimo said:

I'm not telling you how to address him. I'm trying to discover how you would choose to address him, and what would lead you to make that decision.

What I am mainly curious about is if the same people find it equally difficult or offensive when the trait involved is race instead of gender.

I don't think you'll get any answers to this Matti. If they answer one way, they'll be admitting that they're transphobic. If they answer the other way, they'll be admitting that they're transphobic AND racist.  They've already proved that they have zero respect for people like us and no manners whatsoever, no additional demonstration of that is necessary.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I suspect that this thread is not going to be open much longer. I hope it is not removed: it contains much useful and important information.

I am just going to summarize, quickly, the key facts. Really, it's all pretty simple.

• There are no laws or regulations that I know of that compel you to recognize and acknowledge trans identities.
   
• There are laws and regulations that prevent you from discriminating against trans identities. That's a very different thing.
   
• No one is going to be sent to a re-education camp or jail or Siberia if you decide to misgender someone deliberately.
   
• But if you choose to do so, you are being a jerk and a bigot. And I, and an increasingly large percentage of people, have every right to judge you for that.

Here endeth the sermon.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

It's easier if you can remember that it's an adjective, a descriptive word. "Transgendered" would be an adverb meaning that they've had  transgendering done to them, or some such nonsense. (It can't be right because transgender isn't a verb either). Also calling a group of transgender people "transgenders" is wrong because that makes it a noun.

Thanks, that is almost exactly how it was explained to me. I got lazy and just said "don't ever use transgendered" instead of trying to remember (or even using Google).

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I suspect that this thread is not going to be open much longer. I hope it is not removed: it contains much useful and important information.

I am just going to summarize, quickly, the key facts. Really, it's all pretty simple.

• There are no laws or regulations that I know of that compel you to recognize and acknowledge trans identities.
   
• There are laws and regulations that prevent you from discriminating against trans identities. That's a very different thing.
   
• No one is going to be sent to a re-education camp or jail or Siberia if you decide to misgender someone deliberately.
   
• But if you choose to do so, you are being a jerk and a bigot. And I, and an increasingly large percentage of people, have every right to judge you for that.

Here endeth the sermon.

Hopefully most of this also applies to "non-binary"! 🙂

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Hopefully most of this also applies to "non-binary"! 🙂

It does. In most contexts, non-binary identities are comprehended within the larger category of trans identities.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I suspect that this thread is not going to be open much longer. I hope it is not removed: it contains much useful and important information.

I seriously think there should be a dedicated LGBTQ sub forum as SL is a huge draw to that community, and I for one am so very tired of our threads being trashed and blackholed because a couple of people take umbrage at their existence.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

I seriously think there should be a dedicated LGBTQ sub forum as SL is a huge draw to that community, and I for one am so very tired of our threads being trashed and blackholed because a couple of people take umbrage at their existence.

There was discussion of that once, some time ago. I don't remember what came of it.

I agree. It should be possible for members of the LGBTQ+ community to have discussions about themselves that are not subject to what frankly often amounts to harassment. And it's brutally unfair that threads like this get zapped or closed down -- as we know has certainly happened before here -- because homophobes and transphobes decide to turn them into dumpster fires.

[Lewis Luminos]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I seriously think there should be a dedicated LGBTQ sub forum as SL is a huge draw to that community, and I for one am so very tired of our threads being trashed and blackholed because a couple of people take umbrage at their existence.

Sadly I think that every thread in such a subforum would end in the same way that this one is about to...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Lewis Luminos said:

Sadly I think that every thread in such a subforum would end in the same way that this one is about to...

I think the understanding would have to be that, in such a subforum, different moderation rules would apply.

I really don't think its too much to ask for a place where LGBTQ+ people can have discussions without being subjected to attacks.

[Love Zhaoying]

I think threads like this only get locked if they start getting reported a lot.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I suspect that this thread is not going to be open much longer. I hope it is not removed: it contains much useful and important information.

I am just going to summarize, quickly, the key facts. Really, it's all pretty simple.

• There are no laws or regulations that I know of that compel you to recognize and acknowledge trans identities.
   
• There are laws and regulations that prevent you from discriminating against trans identities. That's a very different thing.
   
• No one is going to be sent to a re-education camp or jail or Siberia if you decide to misgender someone deliberately.
   
• But if you choose to do so, you are being a jerk and a bigot. And I, and an increasingly large percentage of people, have every right to judge you for that.

Here endeth the sermon.

Well you seemed to not be aware of both the federal or provincial bills and guidelines until I mentioned them an hour ago and now acting like you are an expert on what is contained in them and how they potentially play out in real world cases. There are potential ramifications, especially since discrimination can be under some circumstances considered under the criminal code. Under the provincial policies it is adjugated by human rights tribunals. There are no juries/judges involved in that process and this process can cost someone thousands of dollars as well jail if there is a contempt of court involved and they can impose large monetary judgements against you along with required re-education classes. Means you were incorrect too about there not being any re-education classes.

Here is a Video of the canadian senate hearing about the problems with C-16. It is interesting for Canadians:

 

[Luna Bliss]

Arielle, honestly, are you trolling?  To bring Jordan Peterson into this?

I have almost always tried to respond to you in an authentic manner, assuming you were being real.  But this?

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It does. In most contexts, non-binary identities are comprehended within the larger category of trans identities.

In our yearly "Trans 101", the "gender spectrum" came up pretty often. I don't see that in this thread much. IMHO, it applies to "non-binary" even more. As I understand it.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Arielle, honestly, are you trolling?  To bring Jordan Peterson into this?

I have almost always tried to respond to you in an authentic manner, assuming you were being real.  But this?

Peterson whether you like it or not is a recognized authority on that Bill. It was on those senate hearings where he came to prominence.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well you seemed to not be aware of both the federal or provincial bills and guidelines until I mentioned them an hour ago and now acting like you are an expert on what is contained in them and how they potentially play out in real world cases.

Why would you think that?

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are no juries/judges involved in that process and this process can cost someone thousands of dollars as well jail if there is a contempt of court involved

Kind of ironic that you are citing Canada's best known transphobe in a discussion of the terrible "real world impacts" of human rights for trans people.

Dr. Peterson has never been charged, fined, disciplined, or in any way even inconvenienced for his very vocal opposition to trans rights. Not even by his own university whose policies he more or less disregarded.

On the contrary, he's parlayed it into a very lucrative little scheme that has also made him a much sought-after (and highly remunerated) celebrity and speaker.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Kind of ironic that you are citing Canada's best known transphobe in a discussion of the terrible "real world impacts" of human rights for trans people.

People tend to quote those they agree with.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In our yearly "Trans 101", the "gender spectrum" came up pretty often. I don't see that in this thread much. IMHO, it applies to "non-binary" even more. As I understand it.

Personally, I don't like to think of it as a "spectrum," which implies a scale between two poles, male and female.

I think it's much more complicated than that.