Non-binary

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Robberinthemuseum said:

Noo Scylla you quoted me with the grammar error! I went back and fixed it. It's burning my eyes!

then --> than

LOL, I feel this. Your typo will now forever be burned into the forum MUHAHAHAHAhhhhh (seriously, that'd bug me, too, lol).

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Thanks for that objective lesson in victim blaming.

Big yikes.

 

37 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

INot everyone can do that. And it's not good enough to implicitly blame others if they don't come from your position of self-confidence, security, or privilege, and can't.

I , personally, don't want to live in a world where we shrug off abusers and vile bigots because, hey, they aren't really bothering me.

In my company, we have security consultants whose entire job is to show people or businesses things they can do to prevent or at least reduce bad things that bad people can do.

Giving people advice on how they can protect themselves and move on is very similar, and it's not victim blaming to do it.

It's a lot like finding a boulder in your path. People with the right tools can move it, but until they show up, you should know how to go around it.

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Or not.

And if "their terms" consist of spewing hatred on you because of who you are?

What then, Reilly? Just shrug and smile, and move on to the next bruising?

The problem being, as I discovered long ago in RL,  the win for the abuser is your reaction.  You can't educate them, you can't win them over with words.  Getting upset with them only encourages more abuse.  Been there, done that.  Now, I completely ignore it.  Why?  Because it's not a perfect world.  Engaging with a person who has such deep hatred will change nothing...ever.  Especially not in SL where who they are is hidden from view.  Block, report, move on.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

I wish it was easier to make a case to LL when harassment and abuse extends beyond what a simple block and move on can accomplish.

You can't block someone who spins up multiple alts in your name, clones your profile and then though seemingly magical powers stalks you around the grid and IM's your friends pretending they are you (and a dozen other equally nasty things). Self imposed ignorance that comes from just blocking then becomes part of the harassers toolkit, they expect you to block them, that's part of the game plan - You can't report what you can't see, and no one can make a case to LL on your behalf.

I've personal experience of this kind of dedicated *phobe, their goal wasn't to be get up in my face and be an edgy jerk, their goal was to systematically undermine the relationships I had in SL and drive me and my friends from the platform. The gaslighting went on for months and got to the point that some even started to openly suggest I was my own abuser and it was some kind of weird attempt to get sympathy.

The only mistake he made was choosing to target more than one person in the same social group, which eventually meant there were times when the abuse continued and the victims were verifiably incapable of being the person responsible (here's me, calling you on skype, and sitting with my hands on my head, on cam, visibly distraught while the abuse continues).

In the end, it turned out I wasn't his primary target. They quit SL, burnt all their socials and links back to SL (and switched their kid to a different school) He won, moved on and the campaign in SL ceased overnight.

 

What did LL do during all of this and the constant flood of abuse reports? NOTHING. Because in each isolated case, the individual making the report could just block the specific throw away account that was harassing them.

I even phoned them in tears and got told "I'm very sorry, but we can't do anything, you have to file an abuse report".

It wasn't till YEARS later that I finally managed to get the clone accounts removed.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I may not be the best person, but I am transgender male to female. And honestly, I really never had a problem when coming out, nor did I have issues with harrassment. I had a group of friends who were quite receptive and warm. I did however, have some dude attack me on behalf of his gf, who was my ex. Before I came out, for being bigender. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

The problem being, as I discovered long ago in RL,  the win for the abuser is your reaction.  You can't educate them, you can't win them over with words.  Getting upset with them only encourages more abuse.  Been there, done that.  Now, I completely ignore it.  Why?  Because it's not a perfect world.  Engaging with a person who has such deep hatred will change nothing...ever.  Especially not in SL where who they are is hidden from view.  Block, report, move on.

 

Well, in a sense, I'm in total agreement. You'll note that I haven't bothered directly addressing the poster who first initiated this particular thread of our discussion. It would be utterly pointless to do so.

So I am NOT suggesting that the victim of abuse should, or in many cases even can, "confront" their abuser. In fact, I'm sort of suggesting the opposite -- that some people are not, for various reasons, in a position to either fight back (as some do), or simply shrug it off. For such people, the existing tools are simply inadequate.

My objection to this particular post (and I'll address this to @Paul Hexemas well) wasn't because I don't think people should use tools like block to protect themselves: of course they should. My old SL "safety guide" was full of information on how to block, send ARs, and protect oneself in other ways.

My problem with the post was the complete lack of sympathy demonstrated for the victims, who are characterized as "whiners" who also often go too far in their responses, and become themselves the aggressor. And that's utter crap.

I know I don't need to tell you this, but harassment causes damage -- real emotional and psychological damage. The idea, which was central to the post in question, that the victims should just sort of "toughen up" and move on demonstrates both a total lack of understanding of what harassment can do to some people, and an astonishing lack of empathy and compassion.

I've been harassed in SL -- but I am an enormously privileged woman who has always had the complete support of family and of friends, both in RL and SL. I'm also reasonably extroverted and not inarticulate. I am well equipped to fight back.

But there's no one good way, no "one size fits all" method for dealing with harassment: too much depends upon the context, the nature of the abuser and abuse, and the personality of the victim. Block and ignore are absolutely vital tools -- but to suggest that they simply make harassment "go away" is garbage. And to argue, as this poster does, that the victims are themselves to blame for the effects of the harassment is just plain grotesque.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Robberinthemuseum]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, in a sense, I'm in total agreement. You'll note that I haven't bothered directly addressing the poster who first initiated this particular thread of our discussion. It would be utterly pointless to do so.

So I am NOT suggesting that the victim of abuse should, or in many cases even can, "confront" their abuser. In fact, I'm sort of suggesting the opposite -- that some people are not, for various reasons, in a position to either fight back (as some do), or simply shrug it off. For such people, the existing tools are simply inadequate.

My objection to this particular post (and I'll address this to @Paul Hexemas well) wasn't because I don't think people should use tools like block to protect themselves: of course they should. My old SL "safety guide" was full of information on how to block, send ARs, and protect oneself in other ways.

My problem with the post was the complete lack of sympathy demonstrated for the victims, who are characterized as "whiners" who also often go too far in their responses, and become themselves the aggressor. And that's utter crap.

I know I don't need to tell you this, but harassment causes damage -- real emotional and psychological damage. The idea, which was central to the post in question, that the victims should just sort of "toughen up" and move on demonstrates both a total lack of understanding of what harassment can do to some people, and an astonishing lack of empathy and compassion.

I've been harassed in SL -- but I am an enormously privileged woman who has always had the complete support of family and of friends, both in RL and SL. I'm also reasonably extroverted and not inarticulate. I am well equipped to fight back.

But there's no one good way, no "one size fits all" method for dealing with harassment: too much depends upon the context, the nature of the abuser and abuse, and the personality of the victim. Block and ignore are absolutely vital tools -- but to suggest that they simply make harassment "go away" is garbage. And to argue, as this poster does, that the victims are themselves to blame for the effects of the harassment is just plain grotesque.

You know, I completely agree with you logically. I never experienced being harassed like that I think. Or maybe I was but have no memory because 0 sh!ts were given on my part. When I read the post originally, it just reminded me of a person I know in RL who doesn't take responsibility for anything and always points the finger at others as the cause for his sadness and failure to launch. Everyone must humor him at all times because he's 'fragile' and might get 'upset' if you try to help him realize his potential. I think maybe that colored my interpretation of the original post which was only 2 or three lines long haha. Sorry. But anyway, you're right, victim blaming is disgusting. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You can't block someone who spins up multiple alts in your name, clones your profile and then though seemingly magical powers stalks you around the grid and IM's your friends pretending they are you (and a dozen other equally nasty things). Self imposed ignorance that comes from just blocking then becomes part of the harassers toolkit, they expect you to block them, that's part of the game plan - You can't report what you can't see, and no one can make a case to LL on your behalf.

I've personal experience of this kind of dedicated *phobe, their goal wasn't to be get up in my face and be an edgy jerk, their goal was to systematically undermine the relationships I had in SL and drive me and my friends from the platform. The gaslighting went on for months and got to the point that some even started to openly suggest I was my own abuser and it was some kind of weird attempt to get sympathy.

I’ve witnessed this sort of abuse multiple times in my 14 years here, sometimes in the forum. They were dreadful to witness. I can’t imagine what it was like to be the target. All I could do was offer support. In the worst examples, the abuser was someone close, within the victim’s circle of friends.

Perhaps those who think block/mute is the complete answer have never witnessed this kind of withering attack on a victim and their relationships with others. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard people say “This is a pretend world, with no real investment, just start fresh on a new avatar to avoid your abuser.” I put people who say that on my 2D list (only 3D people make it to my inner circle). I’ve invested thousands of hours of my RL life in friendships with people here. Many others have invested more. 

Yes, block/mute/ignore will defuse most bullies, but there are nuclear powered abusers that will require either better tools or help from those of us with a little empathy. I do sometimes ultimately conclude that the victim bears some responsibility, but giving them the benefit of the doubt when they tell a tale of woe is a small price to pay for the potential to make this a happier place.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Madelaine McMasters

[Robberinthemuseum]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I’ve witnessed this sort of abuse multiple times in my 14 years here, sometimes in the forum. They were dreadful to witness. I can’t imagine what it was like to be the target. All I could do was offer support. In the worst examples, the abuser was someone close, within the victim’s circle of friends.

Perhaps those who think block/mute is the complete answer have never witnessed this kind of withering attack on a victim and their relationships with others. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard people say “This is a pretend world, with no real investment, just start fresh on a new avatar to avoid your abuser.” I put people who say that on my 2D list (only 3D people make it to my inner circle). I’ve invested thousands of hours of my RL life in friendships with people here. Many others have invested more. 

Yes, block/mute/ignore will defuse most bullies, but there are nuclear powered abusers that will require either better tools or help from those of us with a little empathy. Yes, I do sometimes ultimately conclude that the victim bears some responsibility, but giving them the benefit of the doubt when they tell a tale of woe is a small price to pay for the potential to make this a happier place.

I never thought about it like that. 🤔

[Walelu Summerwind]

I'll just say it.. wtf??? Why drag all of this ignorant sh*t to SL? You can be whatever you want in world. Don't like what I'm saying? Bugger off. 😑

[Robberinthemuseum]

6 minutes ago, Walelu Summerwind said:

I'll just say it.. wtf??? Why drag all of this ignorant sh*t to SL? You can be whatever you want in world. Don't like what I'm saying? Bugger off. 😑

🤣🤣🤣 that's how I felt too haha. So triggered! Lol. You just have to laugh don't you ^^

[Ceka Cianci]

On 4/8/2022 at 12:59 AM, CherriesMakes Puddles said:

I am looking for information in regards to self identifying as non-binary, and what LL would do if one is harassed for doing this? 

For the first part of your question, You may find a lot of help with that in searching the groups section in the in world groups search.. There are tons of all kinds of different groups of all kinds in there..

There isn't much I haven't found.. 

 

For the second part of your question..

The only ones that would know the consequences are the ones that have been AR'd for the following and had action taken against them..

Intolerance

Linden Lab encourages social interactions between users across multiple countries. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation is prohibited. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame users or groups are similarly prohibited.  

Harassment

Harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner that is offensively coarse, intimidating, threatening, or causes annoyance or alarm is not allowed.

We don't really know what happens to them afterwards..

Some make it back to the grid, some are never to be heard from again and some sometimes may not have anything done to them because of things not being reported correctly or something like that..

If you ever AR anyone, just make sure you stick to the details and try your best to keep emotions out and any kind of drama.. They are only going to pay attention to the details, like Time and Place and Date.. As much details as you can give them, the better the chances are that action can be taken..

Before ARing someone, take a deep breath and get calm as you can and then type things up.. typing with a lot of emotion can backfire on by leaving out  things..

Then make sure you block them also..

 

Hope this helps

 

[cunomar]

To follow on from Coffee Pancake , you can't report everybody and when your hit with so many alts sooner or later everyone becomes suspect .

I'm a good guy and i know it , most i know seem find it endearing that i don't much care if people like me or not while some find it annoying for reasons i will never know .

RL you can call me names all day and i will likely just shrug and smile , if you physically attack me your very likely to get injured so i have an enormous amount of tolerance "water off a ducks back"

But it all counts for nothing in virtual . In sl i found escape from whatever it is other people see in me , escape from the endless lifelong duty to be strong , the guy that can fix everything , he who never needs anyone's help , a confidence giver . I was a caring extrovert clown and s*lut . Getting beaten up and abused in sl made me laugh at myself and i enjoyed it . That was face value extrovert always talking in public chat just to keep others amused/bemused shallow fun . I spent far more time lending an ear as a shoulder to cry upon , indeed those who knew me best kept telling me i had to stop being everyones mental health counselor .

All until somebody decided making me quit would be a game .

CP discussed the rl hurt caused by a virtual game and i feel for her , appreciate her emotions were very real . Different people will react in different ways and for me it simply promoted my stubbornness . I left the sim and never returned - but i so wanted to walk into a rl version of that club and lock the door behind me .

Now i'm an sl introvert , i politely decline all invitation  , i remain alone so if someone chats to me it means they came looking specifically for me , hence they are an alt of somebody i already met and deleted . A 5 minute bus stop chat with a stranger once a month is about as good as it gets and i forget their name as soon as they vanish .

If i'm a victim then its self inflicted . I simply can't bring myself to pretend i care when i don't , and if i don't care about you then whats the point of getting to know you ?

I am unlikely to make you smile and nobody comes to sl to be miserable so go find somebody fun to play with and i wish you luck for the future .

[Love Zhaoying]

I've chatted with Trans people who didn't believe in the existence of non-binary people. So..ignorance is pandemic. Be part of the solution!

[Robberinthemuseum]

1 hour ago, cunomar said:

To follow on from Coffee Pancake , you can't report everybody and when your hit with so many alts sooner or later everyone becomes suspect .

I'm a good guy and i know it , most i know seem find it endearing that i don't much care if people like me or not while some find it annoying for reasons i will never know .

RL you can call me names all day and i will likely just shrug and smile , if you physically attack me your very likely to get injured so i have an enormous amount of tolerance "water off a ducks back"

But it all counts for nothing in virtual . In sl i found escape from whatever it is other people see in me , escape from the endless lifelong duty to be strong , the guy that can fix everything , he who never needs anyone's help , a confidence giver . I was a caring extrovert clown and s*lut . Getting beaten up and abused in sl made me laugh at myself and i enjoyed it . That was face value extrovert always talking in public chat just to keep others amused/bemused shallow fun . I spent far more time lending an ear as a shoulder to cry upon , indeed those who knew me best kept telling me i had to stop being everyones mental health counselor .

All until somebody decided making me quit would be a game .

CP discussed the rl hurt caused by a virtual game and i feel for her , appreciate her emotions were very real . Different people will react in different ways and for me it simply promoted my stubbornness . I left the sim and never returned - but i so wanted to walk into a rl version of that club and lock the door behind me .

Now i'm an sl introvert , i politely decline all invitation  , i remain alone so if someone chats to me it means they came looking specifically for me , hence they are an alt of somebody i already met and deleted . A 5 minute bus stop chat with a stranger once a month is about as good as it gets and i forget their name as soon as they vanish .

If i'm a victim then its self inflicted . I simply can't bring myself to pretend i care when i don't , and if i don't care about you then whats the point of getting to know you ?

I am unlikely to make you smile and nobody comes to sl to be miserable so go find somebody fun to play with and i wish you luck for the future .

Jesus this is very sad. 

[Jules Catlyn]

I think we do have to take into account that someone with a different opinion on life matters is not necessarily automatically a bigot or a (put-in-any-term)foob They just base their thoughts and beliefs on their own experiences in life, their upbringing, social environment, culture, etc. It does not necessarily mean they are a bad person and should be fought with fire or forcefully educated. Both these things are often counter productive. I agree  that if they take the step to be insulting or harassing, that should be addressed.

But we have to be very careful that feeling insulted is not the same as being harassed. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Jules Catlyn
Forgot a word

[Coffee Pancake]

27 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said:

I think we do have to take into account that someone with a different opinion on life matters is not necessarily automatically a bigot

But we also shouldn't tolerate those opinions when their outcomes objectively harm people (trans kids especially).

Racist, misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic opinions are just wrong and harmful.

[Polenth Yue]

On 4/8/2022 at 6:59 AM, CherriesMakes Puddles said:

I am looking for information in regards to self identifying as non-binary, and what LL would do if one is harassed for doing this? 

I'm non-binary. I haven't run into problems inworld on that basis, but the forum does have anti-trans people, so I'd suggest that this is the worst place to ask about this stuff. Better to find a support group inworld if you're looking for help on stuff specific to Second Life. There's no official gender marker or anything in Second Life though, if that's what you're asking.

[Quistess Alpha]

45 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

There's no official gender marker or anything in Second Life though

FWIW An avatar's "gender" is loosely based on their currently worn shape

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OBJECT_BODY_SHAPE_TYPE

It's a bit involved to change the value to something other than 0 or 1, but you can. . . turn on the developer menu in your viewer if it's not already on, then go to Develop->Avatar->Character Tests->Appearance to XML. Then find the file it creates in your logs, edit the line that looks like

<param id="80" name="male" display="male" value="0.000" u8="0" type="param_driver" wearable="shape" group="0"/>

to something like

<param id="80" name="Non-Binary" display="Non-Binary" value="0.500" u8="0" type="param_driver" wearable="shape" group="0"/>

and save.  Then create a new shape and import the saved XML file to it and save the shape.

Then scripted objects can know how awesome you are . . . if they're also awesome.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Polenth Yue said:

I'm non-binary.

Hmmm, I've always thought of you as 100% mushroom.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, Jules Catlyn said:

I think we do have to take into account that someone with a different opinion on life matters is not necessarily automatically a bigot or a (put-in-any-term)foob They just base their thoughts and beliefs on their own experiences in life, their upbringing, social environment, culture, etc. It does not necessarily mean they are a bad person and should be fought with fire or forcefully educated. Both these things are often counter productive. I agree  that if they take the step to be insulting or harassing, that should be addressed.

But we have to be very careful that feeling insulted is not the same as being harassed. 

In general, I take your point, but . . .

There are "different opinions" and there are . . . prejudices.

I'm not going to "debate" racism or sexism or homophobia with someone. There's nothing to debate in these instances: POC, women, and members of the LGBTQI+ community are as deserving of equal consideration and rights as anyone else, end of story. Someone arguing otherwise might as well be trying to convince me that the earth is flat.

The same goes, specifically, for non-binary identities.

We can have interesting, civil, and well-informed discussions about the nature of gender and its relation to biology, about gender dysphoria, and about binary thinking in general, but the validity of non-binary genders is not up for negotiation, anymore than is the right of a person of colour to the same rights as a white person.

Interestingly, though, I actually do think that someone with transphobic beliefs (or racist, sexist, or homophobic ones) can be convinced of the wrongness of their views, because these are often the result of a rather mindless acceptance of received opinions and conventional views. I have to believe that, or I couldn't believe in social progress. And we have seen progress in the fight against these things, globally. But, again, I'm not going to approach such a person on the presumption that they could be correct, and that they are simply of a different, equally valid opinion. They aren't.

What I think is a lost cause are those people who belong to the "suck-it-up-snowflake" school of thought, whatever the particular target, because that's a view that is derived from a fundamental character flaw: a lack of empathy and compassion.

[Silent Mistwalker]

29 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Hmmm, I've always thought of you as 100% mushroom.

I thought I was the one that they kept in the dark and fed bs. Polenth at least gets to be out in the fresh air. 😥

 

🤭

[cunomar]

Immigrant bashers i like to ask where were you born then , so wtf are you doing in my town . Should you have the right to go where you need to be to make a better life for your children ?

And i know they will think twice before publicly voicing the same opinion again .

[Jules Catlyn]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Interestingly, though, I actually do think that someone with transphobic beliefs (or racist, sexist, or homophobic ones) can be convinced of the wrongness of their views, because these are often the result of a rather mindless acceptance of received opinions and conventional views. I have to believe that, or I couldn't believe in social progress. And we have seen progress in the fight against these things, globally. But, again, I'm not going to approach such a person on the presumption that they could be correct, and that they are simply of a different, equally valid opinion. They aren't.

I agree that everybody should have the right to be themselves, to express their true being. Everybody should have the same rights and freedoms. What i do not believe in is forceful interaction or "education" and i believe even less in the dismissing cancel culture. 

We are all human beings, with our own thoughts and beliefs. Everybody has the right to live their life as they see fit. I interact on a daily basis with friends who i severely disagree with on many points, but we found more common grounds than differences. We can have meaningful debates about anything and in some cases agree to disagree.

I just do not believe in the sometimes militant way groups try to force their views and beliefs on others. This goes beyond gender and race, this also goes for things like politics and religion. Find common grounds, have healthy conversations but do not dismiss people right a way. 

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said:

What i do not believe in is forceful interaction or "education" and i believe even less in the dismissing cancel culture. 

....

I just do not believe in the sometimes militant way groups try to force their views and beliefs on others. This goes beyond gender and race, this also goes for things like politics and religion

That's nice, anyway .. back on topic.