Continues grieving and the lax mentality around it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

That may be your opinion and I have to respect that, but sadly it isn't one I share. I share the opinion and standpoint that the EU has: LL has created Second Life, this platform? Yes, they did. LL has the tools to adapt, correct, regulate the working of Second Life? Yes, they do. Did LL has forwarded a framework in which users should behave aka a ToS & RoC? Yes, they did. So, according my opinion and the one of the EU, LL is fully responsible for what is happening in Second Life, no matter how big SL is, no matter where it happens, no matter whether it happens to a premium member or not. They are fully responsible for the safety or better phrased "the feeling of safety" of everybody who is using their platform.

Linden Lab is not domiciled in the EU and is not legally responsible for things their customers say and do.

There is no such thing as a "safe place" on this planet. You'll be lucky if the weather doesn't kill you. Linden Lab cannot make you "safe", only YOU can make you safe.

[Lindal Kidd]

2 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

They are fully responsible for the safety or better phrased "the feeling of safety" of everybody who is using their platform.

Nanny stater.

Grow up and learn to take some responsibility for your own life instead of expecting Nanny to do it for you. The world isn't fair...so make it anyway.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Nanny stater.

Grow up and learn to take some responsibility for your own life instead of expecting Nanny to do it for you. The world isn't fair...so make it anyway.

Pretty much what I was typing out before you posted.  If one feels uncomfortable, (let's face it, your avatar IS safe) then remove yourself from the situation.  

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Pretty much what I was typing out before you posted.  If one feels uncomfortable, (let's face it, your avatar IS safe) then remove yourself from the situation.  

Before or after the panic attack?

Brings back bad newb memories. I remember the panic attacks more than I do the causes.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Before or after the panic attack?

Brings back bad newb memories. I remember the panic attacks more than I do the causes.

Preferably, during.  One of my first experiences with a griefer was at a beautiful private region.  It had a suspension bridge high above a river.  Walking across, someone came along and.pushed me off.  Being probably a week old, I was shocked and confused and falling rapidly to my death.  That lasted a second or 2 until I decided to see what happened when I landed.  Nothing.  Nothing happened.  

The OP has been around longer than I have.  I would hope by now they would realize what tools are available and use them.  Or simply, go somewhere else.  Expecting LL to intervene didn't work back then and doesn't work now.  It probably won't work in the future.

[animats]

5 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

They are fully responsible for the safety or better phrased "the feeling of safety" of everybody who is using their platform.

As others have said, no. Second Life is not a "safe place". There are safe places within it, and many people have listed some of them.

We have a culture shock problem here. There are people growing up who think "safe places" are an entitlement. At some universities, they are. But not outside there.

Now, if you want "safe", there's Roblox. Roblox's average user is 13. They have thousands of moderators, outsourced to some low-wage country. Plus a vigilant AI system. Their goal is to block people saying "bad words" within 1/10 second, although they're not there yet.

Facebook Horizons has an elaborate "safety" system. Push one button and you're in your own invulnerable bubble. Plus they have a big "moderator" operation. Despite this, someone has been getting press coverage by complaining publicly about being "groped in the Metaverse". Apparently they hadn't figured out how to push the panic button. Or just wanted drama.

You can get much the same effect in Second Life by buying a "protection bubble" or "defender HUD" on Marketplace. Few people bother, but the products are available. Just sitting down on something prevents others from pushing you, by the way.

Linden Lab operates like City Hall of a medium sized city. They keep the infrastructure going, have a Linden Department of Public Works to build roads, parks, and such, collect property taxes ("tier"), and run a modest complaint department, the "governance" department.

You can complain about abuse from the Help->Abuse menu, and they may eventually do something about it. Mostly that's used for persistent problems, like someone blocking a road or leaving a griefing object running, or legally serious problems, like kiddie porn. They don't handle resident to resident disputes much.

What makes this work is that Second Life is big. It's about the size of Greater London. Jerks can only cause trouble for about a 100m radius, the distance you can shout. So they're a very local problem. Unlike, say, Twitter, Second Life does not provide a megaphone for reaching tens of thousands of people at once. The social dynamics are very different than those of forum and chat systems.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benj. Franklin.

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

That may be your opinion and I have to respect that, but sadly it isn't one I share. I share the opinion and standpoint that the EU has: LL has created Second Life, this platform? Yes, they did. LL has the tools to adapt, correct, regulate the working of Second Life? Yes, they do. Did LL has forwarded a framework in which users should behave aka a ToS & RoC? Yes, they did. So, according my opinion and the one of the EU, LL is fully responsible for what is happening in Second Life, no matter how big SL is, no matter where it happens, no matter whether it happens to a premium member or not. They are fully responsible for the safety or better phrased "the feeling of safety" of everybody who is using their platform.

Congratulations. Your arguments have managed to convince your audience to take the side of the griefers.

[Marigold Devin]

6 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

That may be your opinion and I have to respect that, but sadly it isn't one I share. I share the opinion and standpoint that the EU has: LL has created Second Life, this platform? Yes, they did. LL has the tools to adapt, correct, regulate the working of Second Life? Yes, they do. Did LL has forwarded a framework in which users should behave aka a ToS & RoC? Yes, they did. So, according my opinion and the one of the EU, LL is fully responsible for what is happening in Second Life, no matter how big SL is, no matter where it happens, no matter whether it happens to a premium member or not. They are fully responsible for the safety or better phrased "the feeling of safety" of everybody who is using their platform.

Well I am going to go back to the point I made earlier about the real life police issues.  Linden Lab, and the real life police, cannot be in every place at every single minute of every single day, and so they do rely a lot on the general public (or users of Second Life in the case of Second Life) to report incidents that are, indeed, in breach of the community standards and terms of service. Yes, I agree with you on that. BUT neither the real life police nor Linden Lab will be able to EVER remove EVERY single person who is a perpetrator of what amounts to unacceptable behaviour.  BUT what they do in real life and in Second Life is recognise there are areas that may be more attractive to the ones in our society who choose not to toe the line, and thus they are contained. 

And if you think about it, it makes sense, because then all the bad apples get contained within certain areas and then minimal damage is caused elsewhere to other people (in real life or in Second Life).  It is not at all rewarding these individuals for their bad behaviour. Quite the opposite. They end up really being limited to those public areas and it's just a shame when people either don't see or don't want to see they could be having a grief-free time in one of the many much better places in Second Life.  

Linden Lab are not going to change how they deal with the minor griefers of this world, and they do - as I have said before - give us tools with which to protect ourselves. The rest is up to us. We have to take responsibility and not expect Linden Lab or the EU to be a substitute parent for us.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

25 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

BUT neither the real life police nor Linden Lab will be able to EVER remove EVERY single person who is a perpetrator of what amounts to unacceptable behaviour. 

Something relevant here, looking mostly at RL: Police forces are essentially reactive. A crime is reported, they investigate and try to catch the culprit. It is not their remit to try and prevent a crime being committed in the first place. The closest we come to this is with the intelligence services who try to foil terror plots in the planning stages.

There have been previous attempts by well-meaning groups to try and patrol sandboxes to catch griefers and copybotters. These turned out to not just be generally ineffective but also created some major PR-type disasters. Naming no names, but two of the ***** ******** approached me in a sandbox where I was using a purchased tool to create sculpties from prims, and spent 30 minutes accusing me of copybotting and threatening not just to AR me but to put me under continual surveillance in the sandboxes they patrolled.Just power-tripping basically, from a position of relative ignorance.

 

1 hour ago, animats said:

As others have said, no. Second Life is not a "safe place".

It's a grown-up place, and that's exactly how I like it.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Something relevant here, looking mostly at RL: Police forces are essentially reactive. A crime is reported, they investigate and try to catch the culprit.

In an ideal world this is how they should work ... 

6 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

It is not their remit to try and prevent a crime being committed in the first place.

However, constant pressure to reduce and preempt crime has delivered us a world of profiling based on simplistic criteria, where those felt likely to be a source of crime are aggressively targeted and victimized.

6 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

The closest we come to this is with the intelligence services who try to foil terror lots in the planning stages.

and often end up engineering the crime so as to pull in and punish accomplices. The crime would never have happened had they not been involved.

 

 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

I need an emoticon for "raises a quizical eyebrow"

 

ETA

No, I was most definitely not confused, it was more like "I am impressed you said what you just did and kept a straight face"

Edited December 20, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Lindal Kidd]

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Close, but my mouth is usually curved into an ironic smile. And one eye is bigger than the other....

[Paulsian]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:02 AM, Dorientje Woller said:

But instead of whining about it, some suggestions to think about it.

I know exactly what you are experiencing.

Residents can attach scripted objects to other residents to make them move all over like crazy without being in a sandbox, or shoots your avatar up in in they sky and you lose all control 3000 meters a very slow climb and when you land on the ground they do it again and again, or they attach themselves to you and then go to town moving you around in the sky, or they mess with your chat box where words are missing altered delayed umm. Then you will get an instant message from someone if your lucky after they pretend to care about your public screaming saying I can help you and sends you a pop up to click to "fix" the problem..Even though they caused the problem..after help from a real friend. 

Sometimes friends do it playfully little puppies following. Those types are cute and welcome. 

It's almost like the dance pop ups "so and so would like to animate your avatar click yes to animate or no". Assuming something like that is involved but the pop up not popping up because they scripted around it. Some pop ups no may equal yes, so when I get popups I never click yes or no. near the pop up is an envelope I click and select delete. It's bothersome to not know if pop ups are linden sent, or malicious. Maybe something like the lindens have in their profile indicating they are verified but on popups from secondlife and maybe indication that this pop up is not verifed and could be malicious. In those cases should be auto reported and vetted and if changed after being vetted reported and vetted again. 

I just woke up my brain a bit mush to recall all the things residents can do to other residents in public protected spaces in some cases where scripting is not allowed nor buidling. 

When learning scripting I came across a rule something like "residents have the full power of scripting as the lindens do and should never be used for evil" something like that. 

Maybe that power should be limited at the non premium resident level, Maybe the word in script target or key words that involve 2 avatars and common abuse report scripting intel shall not pass unless premium and if they do pass and are malicious flagged and auto abuse report generated?

Next time this happens because it will: go to help at top of screen, click abuse at that moment the location information will be captured, and the person to report  (because we don't know) would be: Governor Linden. Include a brief summary of the situation.They will investigate.

When the abuse report button is pressed it should capture the following for internal research: bumped/moved by resident name, times bumped, active scripts, script owner, and script creator. 

What is scary is someone can attach themselves to someone else and make it seem like the other person is bumping the person causing the bumping so they can report them and get them banned. Would have to factor that in as well. 

And then we have the people just waiting to get bumped (likely teams) blocking walk ways so they can report someone for bumping them. "he bumped 5 people" lets all report them yah.. 

Maybe a solution is you have been bumped would you like to go phantom/non physical to prevent further bumps during this session? or an option to allow avatar to stay phantom/non physical. 

And reporting Governor Linden for resoluation should not be word of mouth, if someone is attacking you and you don't know who it is there should be I don't know or wording in the report about area advising to report Governor Linden if you are unsure who to report. 

It's a complicated situation to try to fix. Hope this helps somehow. 

 

[kali Wylder]

1 hour ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Close, but my mouth is usually curved into an ironic smile. And one eye is bigger than the other....

Sort of like this?

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Paulsian said:

When learning scripting I came across a rule something like "residents have the full power of scripting as the lindens do and should never be used for evil" something like that. 

Automatically moderating script is impossible, one perfectly fine script and one designed explicitly to cause trouble will use all the same commands and much of the same logic. It would be like trying to moderate the forums by banning vowels.

"Evil" is also context dependent. A weapon that blasts people across a region with a dramatic particle effect is only grief when used in an inappropriate setting.

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

public protected spaces

There are no such places in SL that I am aware of.  There are.public places and protected land.  Protected land having nothing whatsoever to do with YOUR protection.

[Innula Zenovka]

12 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Residents can attach scripted objects to other residents

 How, without using experience permissions, which you need to accept in the first place and which you can easily revoke later if they are abused?

[Rolig Loon]

26 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

What is scary is someone can attach themselves to someone else and make it seem like the other person is bumping the person causing the bumping so they can report them and get them banned.

Um... no. You can't attach yourself to another avatar any more than you can attach an object to another avatar (which, as Innula said, is also impossible unless the person has accepted an Experience that you have control of). The most you can do is either sit on the same object as the other person -- a vehicle perhaps -- or stand close enough that it's hard to tell who bumped whom.

[Paulsian]

32 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

How, without using experience permissions, which you need to accept in the first place and which you can easily revoke later if they are abused?

Those concern me too. Anything that pops up saying this will control your avatar and camera and list of other things is a: don't click yes or no cause no can mean yes. Basically delete the pop up it without touching it.

For a long time I didn't trust linden and mole created experiences. I have built up trust for those that are vetted. When I first started I didn't understand who the moles were, I thought they were spys so I was always very afraid of anything mole related. lol. 

As far as 3rd party experiences no way, nope unless there's a linden stamp of approval that will require reverification if the experience is modified. 

Maybe a built in user experience menu introduced during onboarding. Would you like to be bumped or pushed? Yes or No. Would you like to bump or push others? Yes or No and so on. The following script permissions are allowed to interact with your avatar: list of mesh bodies, and so on. 

Experience pop up: so and so is attempting to interact with your avatar via scripting allow? Then that would be placed in the permissions list as well as information regarding the scripting such as object/script creator (no of that multipe creator bs) list all creators as well as owner of that object seeking permission. 

As well as an experience Toolbar button located on the toolbar not hidden in the list of buttons you can add to the tool bar. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Paulsian
correction

[Paulsian]

16 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Um... no. You can't attach yourself to another avatar any more than you can attach an object to another avatar

Interesting, no body has ever jumped on you and moved when you moved or forced you to move without your permission? 

[Rolig Loon]

8 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Those concern me too. Anything that pops up saying this will control your avatar and camera and list of other things is a: don't click yes or no cause no can mean yes. Basically delete the pop up it without touching it.

For a long time I didn't trust linden and mole created experiences. I have built up trust for those that are vetted. When I first started I didn't understand who the mole were, I thought they were spys so I was always very afraid of anything mole related. lol. 

As far as 3rd party experiences no way, nope unless there's a linden stamp of approval that will require reverification if the experience is modified. 

Maybe a built in user experience menu introduced during onboarding. Would you like to be bumped or pushed? Yes or No. Would you like to bump or push others? Yes or No and so on. The following script permissions are allowed to interact with your avatar: list of mesh bodies, and so on. 

Experience pop up: so and so is attempting to interact with your avatar via scripting allow? Then that would be placed in the permissions list as well as information regarding the scripting such as object/script creator (no of that multipe creator bs) list all creators as well as owner of that object seeking permission. 

As well as an experience Toolbar button located on the toolbar not hidden in the list of buttons you can add to the tool bar. 

I think you have a basic misunderstanding about how Experiences work. In the context you are concerned about, an Experience is an extension of the permission system.

The only people who can own an Experience are Premium members, and they can only activate it on land that they own. There are no grid-wide Experiences other than ones that are owned by Linden Lab and completely under their control. 

A script can only request Experience Permissions for PERMISSION_TAKE_CONTROLS, PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION, PERMISSION_ATTACH, PERMISSION_TRACK_CAMERA, PERMISSION_CONTROL_CAMERA and PERMISSION_TELEPORT, and it can only do that if you have already accepted the Experience.

If you enter an area where an Experience is active, the first script that tries to do anything that requires one of those permissions automatically pops up a big scary permission box that asks whether you want to accept the Experience.  It cannot request other permissions (such as PERMISSION_DEBIT, for example), and it cannot control anything once you leave the land where the Experience is activated. 

You can always UNaccept the Experience later if you wish.

Many of the things that a script might request permission for are automatically granted anyway if you sit on or attach a scripted object, whether the script uses an Experience or not. For example, PERMISSION_TRIGGER_ANIMATION and PERMISSION_CONTROL_CAMERA are automatically granted silently as soon as you sit on scripted furniture.  

18 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Interesting, no body has ever jumped on you and moved when you moved or forced you to move without your permission? 

Nope.  Never, other than with a simple collision.  You cannot attach yourself to another avatar.  Period.

[Paul Hexem]

38 minutes ago, Paulsian said:

Those concern me too. Anything that pops up saying this will control your avatar and camera and list of other things is a: don't click yes or no cause no can mean yes. Basically delete the pop up it without touching it.

For a long time I didn't trust linden and mole created experiences. I have built up trust for those that are vetted. When I first started I didn't understand who the moles were, I thought they were spys so I was always very afraid of anything mole related. lol. 

As far as 3rd party experiences no way, nope unless there's a linden stamp of approval that will require reverification if the experience is modified. 

Maybe a built in user experience menu introduced during onboarding. Would you like to be bumped or pushed? Yes or No. Would you like to bump or push others? Yes or No and so on. The following script permissions are allowed to interact with your avatar: list of mesh bodies, and so on. 

Experience pop up: so and so is attempting to interact with your avatar via scripting allow? Then that would be placed in the permissions list as well as information regarding the scripting such as object/script creator (no of that multipe creator bs) list all creators as well as owner of that object seeking permission. 

As well as an experience Toolbar button located on the toolbar not hidden in the list of buttons you can add to the tool bar. 

I think your fear of experiences is a little unfounded. 99% are going to be harmless and do little more than help you teleport around a parcel. The ones that do more than that are almost all going to be for roleplay regions. 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

9 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

You cannot attach yourself to another avatar. 

You can't even sit on another avatar's attachment, something that a lot of people have asked me if I could script for them.

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Preferably, during.  One of my first experiences with a griefer was at a beautiful private region.  It had a suspension bridge high above a river.  Walking across, someone came along and.pushed me off.  Being probably a week old, I was shocked and confused and falling rapidly to my death.  That lasted a second or 2 until I decided to see what happened when I landed.  Nothing.  Nothing happened.  

The OP has been around longer than I have.  I would hope by now they would realize what tools are available and use them.  Or simply, go somewhere else.  Expecting LL to intervene didn't work back then and doesn't work now.  It probably won't work in the future.

Yup. that's where I was headed before you cut me off at the pass! Don't call us, we'll call you! 📵