Continues grieving and the lax mentality around it.

[Dorientje Woller]

Don't know how well I can phrase it, but since a couple of weeks I am getting harassed, stalked, griefed or in a better legal term by the EU "Cyberbullied" and it seems targetted to my avatar by several objects, like the pushers/viewer crashers/deformers/chat channel objects and so on, that my creative output and mood for my store is reducing quiet a bit.

 

Yeah, I know already the lax answer of most of you: the block the person or object and move on. Sadly, that's no option, as it seems that a blocked person is still able to add/attach objects to you and the blocked object is still rezzable near/on you within a second. Move to another place, is on of the other lax answer ... coz in fact, you are finding it normal that somebody is bullied out of a sim/land/plot where she/he might be for months/years have their best times or the person that's been bullied doesn't have the means/time/courage to do so.

 

But instead of whining about it, some suggestions to think about it.

- Nobody, whether blocked or not should be able to add/attach/rezzed on or near another avatar/activated without the permission of that avatar.

- Intergrated protective bubble/layer around the avatar as default in the viewer, 3rd party viewers included, and together with that a movelock should be a default option too.

- Blocked person and or blocked object remains blocked, even if that object is being used by somebody else.

- Something most to nobody will like: a total prohibition of scripting in the/on the main servers. Create a sandbox/test server/client where people can script and when script is finalized, that script should be uploaded to LL for approval and only by LL approved scripts are allowed to be used on the main viewer/server. Linden Lab can that grand some trustworthy label on the scripters.

- Linden Lab should take griefing/cyberbullying a bit more serious. It's not only the user that gets "annoyed" by it, but Linden Lab itself. Coz when a creator, business owner or even a simple user who has invested time, creativity and possible real money into Second Life, where will those "victims" go at the end? Take a guess ... they will cash out, leave and take their money, creativity and time somewhere else.

- *Edit*: when a Abuse Report is filed from whitin the viewer, the complainer is kept informed about the status that Abuse Report of whether action has been taken or not, what kind of action there is been taken and so on. That Abuse Report and state of it should also been accessable in the dashboard.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Dorientje Woller

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

Hi Dorien. Is your current store on a land that allows your customers to rez objects? Rezzing abilities are the culprit of griefing. You might still consider relocating, or at least gain the right to disallow rezzing for visitors. Most shopping areas don't allow rezzing for customers at all.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Dorientje Woller]

11 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Hi Dorien. Is your current store on a land that allows your customers to rez objects? Rezzing abilities are the culprit of griefing. You might still consider relocating, or at least gain the right to disallow rezzing for visitors. Most shopping areas don't allow rezzing for customers at all.

I don't have an inworld store yet. The place where I do my creations is lately being invaded by griefers. The problem is that the measurements that you, as user, can do are failing. A user that is blocked, shouldn't be allowed to add/attach/rezz on, near you an object within 5 seconds, especially if that object is being blocked too. Whatever action a person do, the moment he/she is blocked, should not have any influence on the experience of the user who is targetted. Same goes for the object. 

 

[Syo Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I don't have an inworld store yet. The place where I do my creations is lately being invaded by griefers. The problem is that the measurements that you, as user, can do are failing. A user that is blocked, shouldn't be allowed to add/attach/rezz on, near you an object within 5 seconds, especially if that object is being blocked too. Whatever action a person do, the moment he/she is blocked, should not have any influence on the experience of the user who is targetted. Same goes for the object. 

 

So random people are able to rez something on your land, despite setting the lands settings against it? Do I understand that correctly?

[Dorientje Woller]

3 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

So random people are able to rez something on your land, despite setting the lands settings against it? Do I understand that correctly?

Land settings have nothing to do with it. The point is that blocked people are still using blocked objects against you. Just like in real life, a no means no and nothing else, wheter you are in a public space with restrictions or private and have all permissions to do what you want: that "no" stands, not the the abilities of the land/plot/parcel/person.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

Ok, so the problem is that you are currently relying on publicly accessible and rezzable land to make your things.

I think this is part of the business model of SL: if you want privacy and peace, you'll have to invest some money in it.

The best option that would cost you no money would be to find a lesser known piece of land that isn't notorious for griefers. I'll give you a suggestion in DM.

[Marigold Devin]

33 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Land settings have nothing to do with it. The point is that blocked people are still using blocked objects against you. Just like in real life, a no means no and nothing else, wheter you are in a public space with restrictions or private and have all permissions to do what you want: that "no" stands, not the the abilities of the land/plot/parcel/person.

Land settings have a lot to do with it. If you're allowing push they are more likely to be able to grief you. Have a chat with Live Chat if you feel there may be something they could advise you to change to prevent this happening to you. 

And if you are using a viewer that has RLV on by default you are likely also to be easier to grief. 

And if you retaliate in any way to a griefer then you just make yourself a moving target. As it seems you have this problem often, I really urge you to take up Arduenn's kind offer.

 

[Dorientje Woller]

3 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Ok, so the problem is that you are currently relying on publicly accessible and rezzable land to make your things.

I think this is part of the business model of SL: if you want privacy and peace, you'll have to invest some money in it.

The best option that would cost you no money would be to find a lesser known piece of land that isn't notorious for griefers. I'll give you a suggestion in DM.

If this is the business model of SL, then it is in the best interest of LL to protect their users against this kind of griefing, harassment, bullying. And your suggestion, thanks for it, but that's just the thing we, as users who are playing by the book aka rules of LL, should avoid: that people with good intentions are bullied away from places they like to use. By this, you are giving the bullier/griever the opper hand, he/she has succeeded, rewarded for his/her behavior and in fact, you allow him/her to disrupt the working of Linden Labs.

[Marigold Devin]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

If this is the business model of SL, then it is in the best interest of LL to protect their users against this kind of griefing, harassment, bullying. And your suggestion, thanks for it, but that's just the thing we, as users who are playing by the book aka rules of LL, should avoid: that people with good intentions are bullied away from places they like to use. By this, you are giving the bullier/griever the opper hand, he/she has succeeded, rewarded for his/her behavior and in fact, you allow him/her to disrupt the working of Linden Labs.

Like in real life though, it's a learning curve. Someone might take up a shop unit where it seems very populated and therefore likely to be busy only to find there is a regular occurrence of vandalism, shoplifting, night time burglary, arson. And in real life what would you do? Most people would cut their losses and move to a better area and put that down to experience.  But always continue to report issues to Linden Lab, because no one does have the right to spoil your enjoyment of Second Life. I certainly would not call it giving the griefer the upper hand or rewarding them. Linden Lab unfortunately cannot change human behaviour, only deal with incidents as and when they occur, and give us what tools are possible in order to protect ourselves. It is up to us not to make ourselves to take responsibility too and not make ourselves into sitting targets. I mean, why would you even like to be on a place where you are constantly griefed/bullied?  Better to just find one of the many other wonderful places that do not incur this behaviour.  

Edited December 19, 2021 by Marigold Devin

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

37 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

If this is the business model of SL, then it is in the best interest of LL to protect their users against this kind of griefing, harassment, bullying.

They do. They protect premium members from griefers by giving them access to premium sandboxes.

It's like a lot of businesses IRL. If you invest some in them, you might get a lot more in return. E.g. I could choose not to invest in software that helps me in building and texturing, but the return would just be a lot less too.

If your business relies on free LL resources like public sandboxes, then LL really doesn't owe you anything at all, because they have very little to gain from you.

[Tama Suki]

2 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I don't have an inworld store yet. The place where I do my creations is lately being invaded by griefers. The problem is that the measurements that you, as user, can do are failing. A user that is blocked, shouldn't be allowed to add/attach/rezz on, near you an object within 5 seconds, especially if that object is being blocked too. Whatever action a person do, the moment he/she is blocked, should not have any influence on the experience of the user who is targetted. Same goes for the object. 

 

Just find a better sandbox and the problem is solved.

[Dorientje Woller]

43 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

No listen i tell you what!

SL is a free open world and if you mess around you have back the equivalent of your messing around.

I don't know why you got all those problems but in my experience one that get ***** from everywere is one that mostly ask for it.

SL is far from a free open world, you should check the community rules, ToS & RoC.

 

Then the point of you get back what I am asking for. I never griefed, harassed or stalked somebody on that SIM/land/parcel at all and is generally busy with my own stuff, so there is no talk about retailiation against my personality. But fine, even here on the forum, we rather protect those who commit the acts then those that are victimized by it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

[Bree Giffen]

I used to build in public sandboxes all the time. I still do once in a while. Just make a platform up in the air about 2000 meters. There you go. The end of your problems.

[Tama Suki]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Its not their sandbox... 

They didnt invoke anything, they made suggestions. No fire and brimstone, no FUD, no end of SL. You really need to calm down with your assumptions and actually read what they wrote. 

ともだち if i have a problem in a sandbox i have two options.
1 I leave the sandbox and find another one.
2 I make a formal complaint to the sandbox owner.
Then there is also option 3 which is the one I prefer: I enjoy making the trolls dance to the music I like.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

There's a few options, really:

1. Wait until LL solves the problem for you.

2. Be pro-active and try a few lesser-known sandboxes.

(Or the more extreme: 3. Give up and leave SL.)

I'd personally go for a pragmatic solution, rather than one that's based on one pertaining perceived entitlement.

[Tama Suki]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

SL is far from a free open world, you should check the community rules, ToS & RoC.

 

Then the point of you get back what I am asking for. I never griefed, harassed or stalked somebody on that SIM/land/parcel at all and is generally busy with my own stuff, so there is no talk about retailiation against my personality. But fine, even here on the forum, we rather protect those who commit the acts then those that are victimized by it.

would you be so nice to pass the URL of that sandbox?

[Claireschen Hesten]

4 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

- Linden Lab should take griefing/cyberbullying a bit more serious.

This is where it's worth paying out for premium if you are able to, you should AR the griefing first, if you can chat to a live chat agent the grief attack will be cleared up quite quickly. If it is public sandboxes you are using another benefit of premium is exclusive sandboxes you are far less likely to be targeted by griefers there

[Theresa Tennyson]

20 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

ともだち if i have a problem in a sandbox i have two options.
 

If you want to look clever by using Japanese, you probably shouldn't write it like a first-grader.　友 is a second-grade kanji and　達　is a fourth-grade one.

[Tama Suki]

7 minutes ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

This is where it's worth paying out for premium if you are able to, you should AR the griefing first, if you can chat to a live chat agent the grief attack will be cleared up quite quickly. If it is public sandboxes you are using another benefit of premium is exclusive sandboxes you are far less likely to be targeted by griefers there

it's not a question of reports and premium accounts in my opinion.
I believe there is room for everyone here even for trolls.
If you are constantly attacked it means that you are hanging out in places that are not for you.
So my answer to the problem of @Dorientje Woller would be to find your space and leave behind what you found anyway considering it as an experience.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

31 minutes ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

This is where it's worth paying out for premium if you are able to, you should AR the griefing first, if you can chat to a live chat agent the grief attack will be cleared up quite quickly. If it is public sandboxes you are using another benefit of premium is exclusive sandboxes you are far less likely to be targeted by griefers there

sandbox etiquette is variable, I use premium ones for the hopefully trouble-free experience, but the other day after being in one spot for close on three hour somebody arrived almost on top of me and rezzed a large mesh green sphere that was large enough to completely cover my build. When I asked what was going on they replied that they had just dropped in and were doing to do some photography. I accepted it wasn't intentional, but I felt surprised they hadn't checked the immediate vicinity first. But there was no intention to annoy me.

In a public sandbox you have to allow for the intention of what can be classed as griefing. Sometimes it's just high-spirits. Sometimes it's curiousity about what is being built. Malevolent intent is really only evident when it's a repeat incident, or they try to orbit you or break the build apart.

The old advice applies: stay seated when you aren't alone, and save your build frequently.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Rowan Amore]

And this is why I've not visited a public sandbox in 12 years.  I learned that lesson the first month in SL.

[Syo Emerald]

32 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And this is why I've not visited a public sandbox in 12 years.  I learned that lesson the first month in SL.

I used to live on public sandboxes for my first year in SL. I was still in school and had not brought any Lindens. It was actually fine, for the most part. Every once in a while you had someone testing a race car and performing like a first-lesson driver. The only griefing that happened was "generalized", like not targeting a specific person, but just the sim in general and that was usually resovled a few hours later at latest.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Syo Emerald
spelling

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

26 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

The lack of any human compassion in this post is absolutely astounding.

New people tend to see things differently, they want the world to change for their benefit, not the other way round, they see inertia as an obstruction that needn't be there and want it out of the way, and there's pros and cons to this, There wouldn't be any progress without a regular amount of fresh viewpoints, however much they might jar with our established beliefs. We have to make some room for them.

I think the vast majority here have come through the experience of being annoyed and learned the pragmatic ways of minimising the risk of it happening or dealing with it when it does. There is a limit to what LL can do, how many live chat personnel are there at any one time, or indeed what restrictions they can put on sandboxes to avoid these sorts of episodes.

I'm old, I've had plenty of kicks and bruises, but I have learned that at the end of it all, sympathy - however well meant, isn't anywhere near as good a substitute as pragmatic advice. I hope the OP gets the positive intentions that have been put forward in this thread.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

I used to build in public sandboxes all the time. I still do once in a while. Just make a platform up in the air about 2000 meters. There you go. The end of your problems.

Some sandboxes have platforms already up for our convenience.